ACTA - International SOPA, Ireland & EU signed 26th Jan

KyussBishop

So, like the internet-damaging, potentially free-speech-killing (on internet) SOPA and PIPA legislation in the US that has been in the news a lot lately, ACTA is the watered down international version of that (written up and pushed by the US), which will affect Ireland directly if passed.

A lot of stuff seems to have happened in the past two months on the topic of damaging anti-piracy laws, with a huge push having been made to force this stuff through in the US, and now it looks like the process of bringing in ACTA to the EU will begin on January 26th (it looks like it will require ratification among all member states to pass though).


When I posted this topic originally months ago, it got no response, so it seems something people did not hold much interest in or care about; it is a hugely important subject though, with regards to free speech on the internet, so it would be good to see some discussion on it here (and perhaps that is more likely now with the big awareness campaigns over SOPA/PIPA).

Some more info on ACTA:
https://www.eff.org/issues/acta

Latest (25th January):

From gavmcg92 on after hours thread:

Ireland and EU to sign controversial ACTA treaty tomorrow

IRELAND IS TO sign a controversial international agreement tomorrow which promises a major international crackdown on the trade of counterfeit goods – and illegal internet filesharing.

Irish representatives will sign the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) at a ceremony tomorrow – as will representatives from each of the other 26 European Union member states, and the EU itself.

Once the agreement is signed, it can then be formally ratified and adopted into law once it has been cleared by the European Parliament. The treaty will be signed tomorrow in Tokyo by Ireland’s ambassador to Japan, John Neary.

Although the treaty is primarily aimed at stopping the trade of counterfeited physical goods, it contains provisions which demand that participating countries offer equal protection and enforcement procedures against digital copyright infringement.

The deal – which is unrelated to the controversial ‘Irish SOPA’ legislation – has been criticised by many, including the digital rights group Electronic Frontier Foundation, for its potential impact on privacy and freedom of expression.

Specifically, it sees member states agree to allow Internet Service Providers (ISPs) disclose a user’s information to a copyright holder, where the latter has a sufficient claim that the user is breaching their copyright.
No circumventing

It also says member states will have to offer “effective legal remedies” to ensure that anti-theft measures – such as the Digital Rights Management (DRM) protection on purchased music files – cannot be circumvented.

The clause could potentially mean that Apple, for example, would have to disable its MP3 recording facility in iTunes – because it could be used to remove the DRM protections from a piece of music purchased through its iTunes store.

Other critics of the treaty suggest that it will forbid the distribution of cheap generic drugs – because they would infringe the copyright of pharmaceutical companies whose research led to their discovery.

A European Commission spokesman said ACTA would not create new intellectual property rights, but would merely serve to enforce existing ones – and would not lead to constant monitoring of internet traffic.

Michele Neylon of Carlow-based internet hosting company Blacknight said the treaty could force internet hosts to deal directly with orders issued by copyright holders, instead of being able to ensure that such orders were handed down by a court.

“If we’ve been given a court order, fine – there’s no discussion, a judge has made a decision – but that’s not what happens, you don’t get your day in court.”

Neylon said it was a matter of “basic economics” that companies like his could not run up significant legal fees, ensuring that court procedures were followed, when those legal fees vastly exceeded the money it received to host sites in the first place.

He added that the current Irish legal situation, where there is no formal definition of ‘fair use’, meant even the likes of personal blogs could be subject to takedown orders if they included a company’s logo without permission, for example.
$200bn industry

The agreement is aimed at clamping down on the trade of counterfeit consumer and electronic goods, which the OECD believes was worth some $200 billion in 2007 – the equivalent of around 2 per cent of all legal trade worldwide that year.

All Irish government Departments will have to confirm that Ireland has the legal means to implement ACTA before it can be formally adopted.

A government spokesperson said, however, that Ireland did not expect to have to amend its current legislation – believing that the provisions of the deal were already accounted for in Irish law.

She added that negotiations on the deal had included representatives from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation [i.e. Sean Sherlock] and members from Ireland’s permanent representation at the EU in Brussels.

News of ACTA being ratified by Poland earlier this week drew the wrath of Anonymous and another group called Polish Underground, which attacked the websites of many government departments in protest at Poland’s signature of the treaty.

The United States, Canada, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Morocco – all of which took part in negotiating the treaty – signed up to ACTA in October of last year.

The European Union and Switzerland said at the time that they would offer their support for the treaty and would sign it as soon as was practicable.

Other interested countries can sign up to the deal before May 2013.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-and-eu-to-sign-controversial-acta-treaty-tomorrow-336764-Jan2012/

I've been trying to get accurate information on this for the past 3 days, and it's only fully clear now; this is unbelievable, it has been negotiated in complete secrecy, and now is about to be signed in, went under everyones radar (was not made clear at all it was to be signed in).

The ****storm happening in Poland, and just starting here, should have been happening all over Europe.

KyussBishop

ACTA is an international treaty, which has been controversial for its extremely broad/'draconian' copyright laws, threats to peoples privacy, threats to freedom of expression, it's potential threat towards net neutrality, as well as initially being negotiated in complete secrecy.

While the finalized text is not as bad as it once was (available here, have a read), it still contains much that people should be worried about. Also, Ireland is on the list of countries that will likely end up signing this.

I skimmed through it myself, and these are notable things I am worried about from it (I am not 100% sure I have interpreted everything right, so open to correction):

• Internet service providers can be forced to give your name/address to copyright holders (i.e. media companies); judging by the text, the burden of proof here is not high (they may only need to accuse you of copyright infringement)
  
• Some of the text is very ambiguous/broad; depending on how it is interpreted, if you are accused of copyright infringement, it might be possible that your computer and all media storage in your house might be taken as evidence and examined (can potentially include mobile phones; how many double as mp3 players these days?).
  
• If you are successfully charged with copyright infringement, the text on damages owed is not clear; it is possible that file uploads could be warped as 'lost sales' and you could end up paying ridiculous damages in the tens of thousands (or worse)
  
• It may become illegal to circumvent DRM, break encryption on programs, or create/distribute software which can do this, potentially even if it has legitimate uses.

Those are some of the bigger things I noticed while reading through the document (and those are quite a big deal).


When you take a look at copyright lawsuits in the last decade, there is a lot of stuff to be worried about that this treaty here may open up:

• If it's the case that media companies can get your name/address on accusation alone, they could potentially threaten you with a fine (of many thousands), or face a lawsuit (which may cost you much more in fee's and time), even if you are completely innocent. This is basically extortion, but has happened a lot so far.
  
• Some of the copyright lawsuits in the last decade have been done on a mass-scale, attempting to sue tens of thousands of people at a time, on flimsy evidence; if it will be easy to get peoples name/address, it may open up this possibility.
  
• Past copyright lawsuits have been notorious for massively massively inflated damages, financially ruining people for minor infringements, and the text on damages here seems quite broad

There's probably plenty more to it worth mentioning, but that is most of what comes to mind offhand.


I think nothing good can come from this treaty, and that it should be resisted as much as possible; it seems to be barely known by most, and such does not get a great deal of coverage, so it seems the kind of thing that's going to slip under the radar until it's already fully signed and enacted.

It would be good to see more awareness and resistance to this treaty, including lobbying politicians about it.

dublinman1990

If you the RTE 6.1 news right now about a site called Mega Upload, which was closed due to privacy concerns, might answer the question.

How about that, it just came up at the right time when I was reading the article.

KyussBishop

Ya that's an interesting case, as the people running the site were alleged to be in violation of the DMCA in the US (another draconian copyright law); however, I believe that MegaUpload staff were not in violation of the laws in their own country, but are now about to extradited to the US to face charges there.

That's pretty crazy when you think about it, being arrested and deported to be charged in another country, when you didn't break the law in your own country; it means the US can write any laws it likes, no matter how bad, and use its extradition treaty with other countries to deport people and effectively put them under their own law.

They would only do this for people who particularly piss them off (e.g. the bigger file sharing sites like MegaUpload, hacker Gary McKinnon, and possibly Julian Assange in the near-future), as they wouldn't get away with it if done regularly.

Another thing to consider there, is Ireland has an extradition treaty with the US as well, so if ever in the future there are high-profile activists, hackers or company leaders of some sort here, who piss off the US sufficiently, they could get deported based on US law.

Fluorescence

There is also an online petition you can sign.

I would strongly urge everyone to get on the phone to our European Ministers as soon as possible. The U.S.A., Australia, Canada, Japan, Morocco, New Zealand, Singapore, and South Korea signed it already last October and now the EU is set to sign at the end of the month (the 26th January I believe, which is THIS THURSDAY).

This bill has been hanging around for years and no-one's given it much coverage or heed. If we value freedom of speech and expression we must oppose this bill strongly.

It is also extremely likely that this is not where it will end. SOPA/PIPA have been shelved in the US, and if we're pro-active enough in the next week or two maybe ACTA will be also. However, these bills are becoming more covert and are trying to sneak their way through under the guise of preventing piracy and the like.

Strongly worded emails and letters are too easy to ignore. So please, please, please get on the phone! Poland is strongly in favour of signing and the rest of the EU is likely to follow unless we do something now. Time is running out!

KyussBishop

I've been trying to find out more information on what is going on with ACTA in the EU, but it is very hard to find anything; it is not being discussed much anywhere, which is quite worrying.

It appears the EU Parliament already voted in favor of it in mid-December:
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/acta-adopted-by-eu-governments-now-in-eu-parliaments-hands

Look at the report mentioning approval of ACTA:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/agricult/127031.pdf

It's right at the bottom of a fecking "Agriculture and Fisheries" press release

I think what is happening now, is all EU member states need to ratify it, and I think it is actually Poland that is voting on it on the 26th.

KyussBishop

Ok, here is another article:
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/01/22/poland-netizens-protest-governments-plan-to-sign-acta-next-week/

On January 19, during a meeting with NGOs and business representatives, the Polish government announced [pl] that it would sign the controversial anti-piracy agreement ACTA on January 26. While the governement calls it a success [pl] of the Polish EU Presidency, netizens are outraged with the arbitrary decision and are calling to take action against the proposal.

So I interpret this as the 'next step' after the mid-December vote, that if the Polish government signs in ACTA, it will begin the ratification process in the EU.

Fluorescence

This is bad news. Anonymous have taken down a number of official Polish government websites in protest, but who knows what (if anything) will come of it.

I'm finding it impossible to find Ireland's official stance on ACTA.

KyussBishop

Yes it's hard to find any information at all; I am trawling a large bunch of IRC channels trying to find more information on this.

One article I found along the way is this:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdi.com.pl%2Fnews%2F42977%2C2.html

Original (in Polish):
http://di.com.pl/news/42977,2.html

Many details (primarily, exactly what will happen in the EU) are still kind of unclear though.

thebman

fluorescence wrote: »

This is bad news. Anonymous have taken down a number of official Polish government websites in protest, but who knows what (if anything) will come of it.

I'm finding it impossible to find Ireland's official stance on ACTA.

Irish politicians are still struggling to learn what dial up is, what broadband is and why we need to move from one to the other.

This is so far over their heads, they'll likely poop their pants, go insane and put their underpants on their heads and pencils up their nose, blackadder style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DCExerOsA

Then they'll just ask Britain what they are doing and copy their policy on it.

KyussBishop

Okey, I've been chatting to some people more in-the-know about this, who are researching it, and (I am told) what is happening on the 26th, is all EU countries representatives are meeting to discuss ACTA, and make an agreement to start the ratification process.

Who is Irelands representative in the EU? Is it Eamon Gilmore?
http://www.gilmore.ie/

If it is, and if I am understanding this correctly, he should be contacted and told to reject ACTA at that meeting.

Fluorescence

KyussBishop wrote: »

Okey, I've been chatting to some people more in-the-know about this, who are researching it, and (I am told) what is happening on the 26th, is all EU countries representatives are meeting to discuss ACTA, and make an agreement to start the ratification process.

Who is Irelands representative in the EU? Is it Eamon Gilmore?
http://www.gilmore.ie/

If it is, and if I am understanding this correctly, he should be contacted and told to reject ACTA at that meeting.

List of Ireland's MEPs with contact details etc. I suggest everyone call their most local one and be as convincing as possible.

tryde

It's horrible how oblivious everyone is to this, I tried googling about any protests against ACTA going on in any cities in Ireland and there's nothing, people don't seem to care about this at all, while this is just few steps before implanting a chips inside everyone's brain so they can monitor what we think. ;x

Fluorescence

It's all rather Orwellian. These laws are not about preventing or punishing piracy, but oppressing and criminalising freedom of speech and expression. Not to mention it will become nearly impossible to self-publish amateur works.

It's extremely worrying.

wiseguy

Can anyone actually confirm the exact date and if possible provide links to any announcements as to when the vote is?
So I can ring up the MEP or two and have a chat
This whole ACTA business will cost this country more jobs, these elected representatives need to understand that, and more importantly we need to make ourselves heard. but first need more info on when the vote is! and any references.



According to the very last page of this (how sneaky! reminds me of shenanigans in US)
"The Council adopted a decision authorising the signing of an anti-counterfeiting trade agreement (ACTA)"

So does the EU Parliament get to vote on this now? and when??

Turbine

If anyone was wondering what the Irish government's stance is, here you go:

"In December, the Irish Times reported that the Irish government was planning to stop “illegal downloading” through a new government order.

"Minister of State for Enterprise Seán Sherlock is to publish an order early in the new year that is expected to allow music publishers, film producers and other parties to go to court to prevent internet service providers from allowing their customers access to pirate websites.”

Full column: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-will-ireland-block-the-internet-to-save-cds/

Effectively, if a company such as Universal, Sony, Paramount etc. doesn't like the look of a website's content, they can go to court and get an injunction preventing Irish ISPs from allowing their customers access to that website. This could very easily lead to a more restricted Facebook and YouTube, and websites such as Rapidshare being blocked completely.

KyussBishop wrote: »

I skimmed through it myself, and these are notable things I am worried about from it (I am not 100% sure I have interpreted everything right, so open to correction):

• Internet service providers can be forced to give your name/address to copyright holders (i.e. media companies); judging by the text, the burden of proof here is not high (they may only need to accuse you of copyright infringement)

Someone should contact the Data Protection Commissioner and ask him what his stance is on this, cause theres no way that could be legal.

wiseguy

Turbine wrote: »

and websites such as Rapidshare being blocked completely..

We already seen what happened this week to Megaupload without SOPA and ACTA using existing legislation, the whole assumption of
guilt and treating it as a criminal not civil matter.

Whats next Dropbox? Google?? Microsoft??? All offer online storage, communications which can be and is used for piracy, a quick "google" turns up alot of pirated **** they index and save in their caches for example.
All of this at a time when our goverment is making alot of noise about "cloud this cloud that" and "knowledge jobs" well I tell you there wont be any jobs being created here under ACTA or SOPA, these will all go to China who will stick 2 fingers to the whole affair since all they care about is employment for their people.

nacho66

Discussing about ACTA doesn't help. Action needs to be taken. Yesterday evening, in Poland, there was a series of 'overload' attacks on the sites of polish parlament, prime minister, president and few orther government institutions. More attacks were commenced during today and more government related sites (rulling party, police, ministry of finance) went down . European Parlament site also went down this afternoon. The result was that every single tv and radio station in Poland was talking about this, many poeple learned about ACTA, many politics realized signing this document may be a political suicide and they started to back up. Prime minister, foreign affairs minister and few other representatives are meeting tomorrow to discuss next step. Will they back up totally? No idea. But it's not 'silent' anymore. It was main subject today and even elder people who don't use (or even have) computer now know what ACTA is

Irish people should have loud public debate as well!

nacho66

Just to precise. It's not 'voting' that takes place on 26th Jan. It's actual signing of the document by a number of countries. It's unclear which countries decided to sign ACTA on this date and which leave that till future date. Polish minister of sigital technology (or however that would translate to enlish) said this morning on the TV (perhaps accidentally that):

During today's meeting with the prime minister we will be discussing what to do with the act of signing of ACTA on 26th Jan. Different countries informed european commision, that they will abstain from signing. Switzerland already said they won't sign the document at all, four other countries said they won't sign it on that date

kali005

Why is this still now on the news? In Poland, a battle started against the government, to make this public, the pms website has been hacked, and multiple websites been ddos'd. Now, after all this, some kind of dialogue started.

KyussBishop

nacho66 wrote: »

Just to precise. It's not 'voting' that takes place on 26th Jan. It's actual signing of the document by a number of countries. It's unclear which countries decided to sign ACTA on this date and which leave that till future date. Polish minister of sigital technology (or however that would translate to enlish) said this morning on the TV (perhaps accidentally that):

Is there a link on this? An important thing to consider here, is ACTA will be open to signing until March 2013; even if a bunch of countries abstain initially, it doesn't mean they may not vote at some time between now and then.

Another link I found on this today; there will be an EU meeting to debate this tomorrow:
http://www.laquadrature.net/node/5052

JustinDee

fluorescence wrote: »

These laws are not about preventing or punishing piracy, but oppressing and criminalising freedom of speech and expression

Give us a couple of layman's examples of this (honest request here).
What is the best alternative option that can be taken in implementing an international convention aimed against copyright piracy/illegal downloading?

kali005

JustinDee wrote: »

What is the best alternative option that can be taken in implementing an international convention aimed against copyright piracy/illegal downloading?

Reducing prices and widen availability of media? This is up to the fecking corporations, not up to politicians.

KyussBishop

Further information from after hours thread:

baltimore sun wrote: »

Yea, but they're in Polish.....I read them in Google Chrome and it auto translated.
Anonymous had the Polish PM over a barrel over the weekend, threatening to release confidential documents if he signed ACTA. Minister of Culture said this morning that Poland won't sign it and should have a different law to protect intellectual property.

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,11014922,Boni__Mozemy_nie_podpisac_ACTA_26_stycznia.html

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/796028,796372-Boni--Skradziono-dane-z-laptopa-wiceministra-cyfryzacji.html

Another news site you can find stuff on is gazeta.pl

That's promising; thanks!

Translated versions:

Boni: We can not sign ACTA January 26
- We do not intend to introduce any new solution that would allow blocking websites - said Monday on the radio TOK FM digitization Minister Michał Boni. The government probably will not sign ACTA within the prescribed period.

Saturdays are blocked from government websites in protest against the ACTA. This international agreement, which assumptions have to fight against piracy, but - as claimed by protesters - is taken in secret and can become a tool to cut off users from the network, forcing operators to monitor the millions of people, punishment for the most trivial cases.

The government initially declared that ACTA will sign on Thursday 26 January. But today, the Prime Minister's Office held a special meeting on this issue.

- I grieve that there was no consultation on ACTA. At the turn of the rule, some offices to accelerate its work . Which? Let's leave it. Made a mistake and it needs to work out, go back to the consultation. Prime Minister did not sign the authorization for the head of the MFA to sign this document. Give yourself more time - said on Monday in TOK FM Minister Boni.

Can we not sign ACTA? - We can not sign him. I think that in Europe, will now great discussion. At least four countries, including Austria and Germany , have already decided that they do not sign ACTA within the prescribed period - he added. He recalled that ACTA is the national document, only the European, so it worked on the European officials.

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,11014922,Boni__Mozemy_nie_podpisac_ACTA_26_stycznia.html

Hackers vs ACTA
Stolen from a laptop Deputy digitization

Someone hacked into a laptop digitization deputy Igor Ostrovsky and steal data, both private and business - Minister Michał Boni revealed

- Hackers broke into the computer's deputy, was reporting to the police. I think it is outrageous - the minister said on the air digitization TOK FM.

Boni also apologized for the lack of public consultation adopted by Poland ws. ACTA: - There is a deficit and the feeling that there was no consultation, I deplore this, and I apologize for this.

- Signal a lack of consultation ws. ACTA has been heard.

- We must have better security when it comes to servers - Boni minister said on television TVN24. He recalled the fact that hacking is against the law. - Within a few months we should audit the security administration pages, they should have a security system - he said. - New contracts are needed and appropriate instructions to the ministers.

Premier has not yet authorized the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Boni stressed that the international treaties, countries may attach protocols, specifying those treaties. - Nothing in ACTA does not require changes in Polish law - said Minister Boni.

- It is important to clarify the ACTA that vanished mythology threats - he added.

The Minister assured that the Polish government's goal is to protect Internet users.

- You need to find a formula which, in another way (other than the ACTA - ed) will protect intellectual property - Boni said.

Today the Minister Boni will meet on ACTA with Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Minister Bogdan Zdrojewski. Prime Minister Tusk has not yet signed the authorization for the Foreign Ministry to sign ACTA.

According to the announcement, in a meeting with the Prime Minister was to attend the Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski. But the Minister went to Brussels, where he will attend a meeting of EU foreign ministers.

Who does not sign ACTA?

Several countries have announced that for sure will not sign ACTA January 26. Boni asked if our country can sign an agreement ws. ACTA, said that Poland may also not sign ACTA January 26.

- It will be a big debate now in the EU, whether it makes sense to sign this document - he noted. As noted, one of the signatories of the Treaty is the European Commission, and "the suggestions of various EC countries may return to this discussion" over ACTA.

ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement) is an arrangement between Australia, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Morocco, New Zealand, Singapore, Switzerland and the USA, which is to join the EU. His name can be translated as, "a revolution against counterfeiting," however, concerns the protection of intellectual property in general, also on the internet. According to the defenders of freedom on the Internet can lead to different content blocking and censorship in the name of fighting piracy.

kali005

Well, nothing is said yet. There is going to be a meeting today to discuss this, then we'll see what's gonna happen. Then still, where is this on the Irish news?

KyussBishop

kali005 wrote: »

Well, nothing is said yet. There is going to be a meeting today to discuss this, then we'll see what's gonna happen. Then still, where is this on the Irish news?

There is no coverage anywhere outside of Poland. I've been trying to stir up discussion of this in a lot of places (contacting newspapers and all), and there is simply no interest in it, which is disappointing.

The best/most amount of interest all this has received thus far, is here on boards.

kali005

KyussBishop wrote: »

There is no coverage anywhere outside of Poland. I've been trying to stir up discussion of this in a lot of places (contacting newspapers and all), and there is simply no interest in it, which is disappointing.

The best/most amount of interest all this has received thus far, is here on boards.

I'm gonna try posting this thread in some places. MEPs won't do ****, unless this goes public.

Fluorescence

JustinDee wrote: »

Give us a couple of layman's examples of this (honest request here).

Ok, say you're a gifted athlete. You make a video of you doing some awesome stuff, edit it around and slap some music in the background that fits your demonstration perfectly. You upload it to Youtube and it's taken down because of music copyright.

Or, say you review music. At the top of each review you put a picture of the album cover, or maybe an audio link to one of the songs. You give the album a bad review and it's taken down for "infringement".

And this is barely scratching the surface.

JustinDee wrote: »

What is the best alternative option that can be taken in implementing an international convention aimed against copyright piracy/illegal downloading?

Provide legal alternatives that are better service than the pirates. The likes of iTunes for music, Steam for games and Netflix for movies prove that people will still pay for their entertainment so long as it's convenient and good service.

Piracy really isn't that big of a deal for entertainment companies. Their real problem comes from people seeking entertainment from their peers: independent artists etc. More and more people are turning away from mainstream entertainment to the internet. Peer-based sharing of self-published content is what's hurting the likes of EMI and Warner Music groups etc. Not piracy.

JustinDee

kali005 wrote: »

Reducing prices and widen availability of media? This is up to the fecking corporations, not up to politicians.

You honestly think that reducing the price of a CD or a DVD would reduce download piracy of it? I don't.
So long as it costs something and there is a free alternative then the latter course will be taken.
The end user doesn't tend to adhere to a moral standing on the issue. The illegal downloader certainly doesn't in the majority. In my view anyway. If a website is hosting a means to illegally download copywritten material then why shouldn't it be closed down? Surely it is an accessory to theft.
I've heard the excuses such as "material is just being backed up" (yeah right) or "I used to own it but lost it" (Lost it? Buy it again).
Still changes nothing.
If you can't afford a luxury good, you can't have it.

nacho66

Meeting between polish prime and his ministers is to take place at 2pm CET (in 40 minutes). Anonymous group (and other local communities) stopped 'attacking' government sites and are waiting for the results of that meeting. We all are actually. Michal Boni, minister for digital technologies, who became key spokesman in this matter, already said, that apart from today's meeting there will be consultations held within next two weeks. This would imply they would not sign ACTA this Thursday. But, as KyussBishop mentioned, it doesn't mean it's a closed subject. As Boni said earlier today, there are other countries that are supposed to sign ACTA this Thursday. Is Ireland among them? No idea. But if this doesn't become a headline like now, the whole thing may go quitely under the radar of irish poeple

JustinDee

fluorescence wrote: »

Ok, say you're a gifted athlete. You make a video of you doing some awesome stuff, edit it around and slap some music in the background that fits your demonstration perfectly. You upload it to Youtube and it's taken down because of music copyright

Of course you've to clear music rights before using them for your own benefit.

fluorescence wrote: »

Or, say you review music. At the top of each review you put a picture of the album cover, or maybe an audio link to one of the songs. You give the album a bad review and it's taken down for "infringement"

It is infringement regardless unless prior permission granted. What are you reviewing on? A blog? Online review website? Magazine?

fluorescence wrote: »

Provide legal alternatives that are better service than the pirates. The likes of iTunes for music, Steam for games and Netflix for movies prove that people will still pay for their entertainment so long as it's convenient and good service.

Piracy really isn't that big of a deal for entertainment companies. Their real problem comes from people seeking entertainment from their peers: independent artists etc. More and more people are turning away from mainstream entertainment to the internet. Peer-based sharing of self-published content is what's hurting the likes of EMI and Warner Music groups etc. Not piracy.

I disagree. Piracy is rampant. How many computer users do you know who download illegally? I know quite a few myself. Entire TV series downloaded by people who also use legal sources.

kali005

JustinDee wrote: »

You honestly think that reducing the price of a CD or a DVD would reduce download piracy of it? I don't.
So long as it costs something and there is a free alternative then the latter course will be taken.

Sure, there will still be some people downloading stuff, but i can see for myself, and many people i know, since media has become cheaper, more people tend to buy stuff, then download. Digital distribution, as well as low prices on CDs and DVDs really make the difference.

Fluorescence

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course you've to clear music rights before using them for your own benefit.


It is infringement regardless unless prior permission granted. What are you reviewing on? A blog? Online review website? Magazine?

Do magazines or newspapers seek permission before printing reviews? If they had to do so, does that not directly infringe on the right to free speech?

JustinDee wrote: »

I disagree. Piracy is rampant. How many computer users do you know who download illegally? I know quite a few myself. Entire TV series downloaded by people who also use legal sources.

Yes, people pirate, but that's not where media companies lose their revenue.

nacho66

JustinDee wrote: »

You honestly think that reducing the price of a CD or a DVD would reduce download piracy of it? I don't.
So long as it costs something and there is a free alternative then the latter course will be taken.
The end user doesn't tend to adhere to a moral standing on the issue. The illegal downloader certainly doesn't in the majority. In my view anyway. If a website is hosting a means to illegally download copywritten material then why shouldn't it be closed down? Surely it is an accessory to theft.
I've heard the excuses such as "material is just being backed up" (yeah right) or "I used to own it but lost it" (Lost it? Buy it again).
Still changes nothing.
If you can't afford a luxury good, you can't have it.

If you rent your apartment to someone, are you legally responsible for a crime that happens in it? Would FBI tell you that you MUST monitor what's going on in the apratment you rent 24 hours a day? Check every guest that tennants have?
File sharing services offer space and subsequent download of stuff allocated within that space. Their T&C don't ask you to break copyrights

nacho66

fluorescence wrote: »

Yes, people pirate, but that's not where media companies lose their revenue.

That's exactly the case. It's very naive to think that a pirate would buy every game he downloaded if piracy didn't exist.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course you've to clear music rights before using them for your own benefit.


It is infringement regardless unless prior permission granted. What are you reviewing on? A blog? Online review website? Magazine?


I disagree. Piracy is rampant. How many computer users do you know who download illegally? I know quite a few myself. Entire TV series downloaded by people who also use legal sources.

It's patently obvious you have little idea what you're actually talking about it, which is ironic given you are one of the loudest voices on the thread.

Fair use covers much of what you are talking about, but fair use will not be protected.

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

It's patently obvious you have little idea what you're actually talking about it, which is ironic given you are one of the loudest voices on the thread.

Fair use covers much of what you are talking about, but fair use will not be protected.

Less of the condescension, fella, thanks.

I post on the thread because the usual objectors to any legislation aimed at curtailing tend to be downloaders themselves. As I don't download illegally at all or share my own music and movies for copying, it doesn't me really.

The hystrionics and melodrama about breach of human rights/privacy/big brother tends to be nothing more than screaming a sook over not being able to download illegally.

View

karma_ wrote: »

Fair use covers much of what you are talking about, but fair use will not be protected.

Out of curiousity, does Ireland (and/or anywhere else in the EU) actually use the principle of "fair use" in its (their) IP and/or copyright laws?

AdamD

JustinDee wrote: »

Less of the condescension, fella, thanks.

I post on the thread because the usual objectors to any legislation aimed at curtailing tend to be downloaders themselves. As I don't download illegally at all or share my own music and movies for copying, it doesn't me really.

The hystrionics and melodrama about breach of human rights/privacy/big brother tends to be nothing more than screaming a sook over not being able to download illegally.

Do you use youtube/facebook/twitter etc etc etc

if so; it affects you.

nacho66

JustinDee wrote: »

The hystrionics and melodrama about breach of human rights/privacy/big brother tends to be nothing more than screaming a sook over not being able to download illegally.

Bollocks that proove you don't know what ACTA is, what risks it brings and how 'chasing' pirates looks nowadays

KyussBishop

JustinDee wrote: »

Less of the condescension, fella, thanks.

I post on the thread because the usual objectors to any legislation aimed at curtailing tend to be downloaders themselves. As I don't download illegally at all or share my own music and movies for copying, it doesn't me really.

The hystrionics and melodrama about breach of human rights/privacy/big brother tends to be nothing more than screaming a sook over not being able to download illegally.

Lets address the topic at hand, ACTA, instead of accusing all people who oppose it on free speech grounds of illegal downloading, and insulting them as 'sooks' i.e. cowards.

ACTA will not stop people downloading copyrighted material; all people need to do to get around current proposed legislation (both in EU and here in Ireland), is to use a proxy service; that's it, and it requires little to no technical knowledge.
It is practically impossible to stop people illegally obtaining copyrighted material, without turning the internet into a one-way content provider, in the image of cable TV providers.

So the situation we have is:
1: These laws will not stop or reduce piracy
2: These laws definitely impact free speech, and if they pass, they are the first step towards widening censorship of the internet

Nothing positive comes from these laws, only negatives; these laws do not solve the problem they are trying to address (not even partially), and in the process, they will have a significant negative impact on free speech.


Do you support ACTA, and have you got a good argument for introducing it?

Your previous post implies, in relation to piracy, that you think "something must be done"; if that's accurate, what exactly do you think should be done? (and will that solution actually stop piracy? will it also harm free speech or threaten censorship in some way?)

Jonny7

nacho66 wrote: »

Bollocks that proove you don't know what ACTA is, what risks it brings and how 'chasing' pirates looks nowadays

If I don't pirate anything, camcord films, have illegally downloaded files on me, etc, etc ... how will ACTA affect me?

tryde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_bERAf5KAg

For JustinDee and others.


If you use line from a song/movie/TV show on your blog, msn title or even write an article/essay with some quotes taken - you are a criminal according to ACTA.

What this "law" is trying to imply - is renewed middle ages. Basically scientists, artists, anyone, won't be able to use prior inventions or ideas.

This is utter breach of freedom of speech, it's not about piracy at all, they can shut down pirate websites as much as they want already, what they did to megaupload was enough of a proof.


Basically - the MAFIA corporations and politicians, fear the power of internet - it's uncontrollable network of information, where people can spread information and ideas without any restriction. With this they'll gain right to monitor your mails, bandwidth and everything you do. You want them reading your intimate e-mails to your girlfriend or family ? Well with acta you are guilty until proven otherwise - and ISPs will have to keep backup of your internet bandwidth for 18 months, just in case.

What ACTA proposes is something on same lvl as Surveillance in some of communist countries, total opposite of what we see as FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.


To be honest people on this forum and others that are aware of this, we should organise something to spread leaflets letting people know about this whole thing, there must be a way to inform everyone, as most people seem to be awfully ignorant to what this thing means.

KyussBishop

Jonny7 wrote: »

If I don't pirate anything, camcord films, have illegally downloaded files on me, etc, etc ... how will ACTA affect me?

If a company litigating against file sharers, mistakenly identifies your IP address as having downloaded illegal content, or your ISP mistakenly matches the IP to the wrong customer, the ISP will send the litigator your address, and the litigator could send you a letter demanding a settlement of several thousand euro, or they will bring you to court.

You would then face either:
1: Paying the (literally) extortionate fine or
2: Going to court and paying a large amount of money in lawyers fees, and if you fail to prove there was a mistake in identifying you, you could get hit with massive fines in damages and a jail sentence

All of this has already happened before in other countries, to innocent people; in particular, it is a regular practice for people to be threatened with a court case (even if the evidence is flimsy), in order to make them go with the settlement fee.

JustinDee

KyussBishop wrote: »

Do you support ACTA, and have you got a good argument for introducing it?

Just using YouTube as an example, as someone mentioned, users on YouTube uploading copywritten material. To stop them doing this, the obvious measure is to stop the outlet from allowing such material being downloadable. The answer as to how to stop them doing this is obvious. The website have to police it as they are the hosts or face closure. I know how they do this at the moment ie. do nothing until an threat fro copyright holder arises.
If you host or propagate the hosting of video material taken from the IRFU's website covering Club Sevens via a sharing website, blog or social media account, as another example, you are in breach. A law should be applicable in stopping you doing this.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Your previous post implies, in relation to piracy, that you think "something must be done"; if that's accurate, what exactly do you think should be done? (and will that solution actually stop piracy? will it also harm free speech or threaten censorship in some way?)

This is the question I actually asked in one of my first posts ie. what can be done to prevent unauthorised access and/or breach of copyright.

A 'sook', by the way, is not a coward.

kali005

Jonny7 wrote: »

If I don't pirate anything, camcord films, have illegally downloaded files on me, etc, etc ... how will ACTA affect me?

Well, you are not using a text web browser, don't you? So, no images, that might be copyrighted end up on your hard drive, as a result of normal operation of a usual browser. Then, have you ever written an article or a review of a movie, game, album? It's common practice to use the cover for the review - you won't be able to do this...
But this is just the top of the iceberg -

What people are really mad about is, that if this will be enforced, ISPs will have to monitor your network traffic, and in case handle all of your data, to any party claming you've infringed their copyrighted material, resulting in seizure of your equipment and all that lawsuit costs.

Plus - ACTA is not focused on internet only - i think, what we should be really afraid about is, that corporations will ban selling generic drugs and seeds - since there is a copyright on them already - this happens in countries already - farmers are not allowed to use their own seeds, since they would infringe rights of companies that PATENTED them.

Im sorry, english in not my native tounge, thus it might be a bit unclear.

JustinDee

tryde wrote: »

If you use line from a song/movie/TV show on your blog, msn title or even write an article/essay with some quotes taken - you are a criminal according to ACTA

Well thats what copyright is for. To protect the use and intellectual property of such an entity. Thats what creditation is for. To acknowledge use of this kind of material following permission to do so.

tryde

"Well thats what copyright is for." Say this line was used in some TV show few years ago and they put copyright on it.

Now you are a criminal.

This is completely stupid, what they are trying to patent are WORDS, freedom of speech.

This isn't Communist country, where corrupted government can force whatever they want onto people. What's next ? Chips inside brains so they can monitor what we think in case we think about something copyrighted ?

They are greedy and they are trying to think of every way possible to turn 10 Billion USD on their accounts to 20 billion USD, this whole thing shouldn't even happen, there are way bigger problems in the world, yet they don't give a **** about millions of people starving in 3rd world countries.


ps. Another thing is treatment towards citizens, they tried to pass this law without consulting people, it's same as if they decided to pass law which allows Death Penalty or other ridiculous thing, without even going through lower and upper houses or asking citizens who voted for them. At the same time what this law implies is - WE ARE ALL CRIMINALS, until proven otherwise.

JustinDee

tryde wrote: »

"Well thats what copyright is for." Say this line was used in some TV show few years ago and they put copyright on it.
Now you are a criminal.

This is completely stupid, what they are trying to patent are WORDS, freedom of speech

The thing about lawsuits is that a plaintiff has to prove and that a defendant can defend.
Amidst all the misinformation being thrown out across the various media, this tends to become conveniently overlooked.

tryde wrote: »

This isn't Communist country...etc...etc

Seriously...

JustinDee

tryde wrote: »

ps. Another thing is treatment towards citizens, they tried to pass this law without consulting people, it's same as if they decided to pass law which allows Death Penalty or other ridiculous thing, without even going through lower and upper houses or asking citizens who voted for them. At the same time what this law implies is - WE ARE ALL CRIMINALS, until proven otherwise.

It is not a constitutional matter so Joe Soap has no veto whatsoever. Nothing unusual about that.
The clue is in the name. What the ACTA is is a trade agreement and as is managed by the relevant govt department(s) which is made up of democratically elected officials designated the relevant roles.

tryde

Don't give me "seriously", this is pure censorship, they assume we are all criminals, you think educated people that know their rights will stay in a country which signed ridiculous law like this ? You think IT companies will invest in such a country?

Everyone will go to countries which shown finger towards USA's "dictatorship" over other countries. Russia, China, India, Brasil and many other countries know about this very well and they'll benefit greatly from this.

About lawsuit, the fact that they can even start lawsuit about something as ridiculous as people speaking their mind, is what's sick about this.

For anyone who wishes towards better tomorrow, something which restricts flow of information and knowledge is equal to Witch Hunts in middle ages. We should be going in exact opposite direction of this or we'll end up living in Bourgeois Dictatorship, where rich corporations are above law and only thing normal people can do is obey.

edit: I know it's a trade agreement, but it's a trade agreement which directly affects our life, it's not something that should be allowed by government in power without prior consulting the citizens which ellected it.