Starting a wine cellar

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

..... what factors do and do not affect the ageing of a wine. I've heard that mainly it's the tannins breaking down that causes it....

It's really the other way around. The cork allows the wine to breath over time and this allows the tannins to soften out and integrate with the wine. Fruits can soften too and acids so it's a little more complex than just tannins.
Bear in mind that many whites can be laid down and they have no tannins at all.

Well exactly, either there are specific factors that help the chemical process or else it's just a question of saying good wine ages well, bad wine ages badly.

the beer revolu

Screw caps seal the bottle so the wine cannot breath or mature.

The wines mentioned above are all screwtop. They are hermetically sealed and have done all the aging they're going to do.

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age. Being in the business, I expected you to know that, Slaphead. Google it.

johnnyskeleton

the beer revolu wrote: »

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age. Being in the business, I expected you to know that, Slaphead. Google it.

Is it not more of a statement of intent? I always thought that wines that marketthemselves as a superior quality product would go for a cork rather than a screwtop, in much the same way as they would go for a bottle over a bag of wine.

the beer revolu

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is it not more of a statement of intent? I always thought that wines that marketthemselves as a superior quality product would go for a cork rather than a screwtop, in much the same way as they would go for a bottle over a bag of wine.

Nope, many top end Aussie and American wines come in screwcaps. Just like corks, there are cheap crappy screwcaps and good quality ones - Stelvin closures being a top quality screw cap on many expensive US wines suitable for ageing. Experts claim that wine in screwcaps age more gracefully - I think they mean slower!

Padraig Mor

Curious Wines' blog touched on the screwcap debate recently:
http://www.curiouswines.ie/blog/2010/11/helping-put-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-cork-closures/
They reckon screwcaps are "undoubtedly the best closure available for wine today". Although they sell a lot of Oz stuff so maybe they're biased?....

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

The concensus is that wines age just fine,if a little diferently, with screwcap closures. It is a myth that wines with screwcaps can't age.

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

Slaphead07

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Curious Wines' blog touched on the screwcap debate recently:
http://www.curiouswines.ie/blog/2010/11/helping-put-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-cork-closures/
They reckon screwcaps are "undoubtedly the best closure available for wine today". Although they sell a lot of Oz stuff so maybe they're biased?....

perhaps for wine "today" but not for the same wine in 5 - 10 years.

the beer revolu

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one.
I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.
Agreed, there is reluctance among conservative consumers, particularly in France, to associate quality wine with screwcaps but that is changing.
To me the notion that quality wine that can be laid down can only come in corked bottles is as blinkered as the notion some people have that really high quality wine can only come from France.

johnnyskeleton

the beer revolu wrote: »

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Maybe you have a different definition of "concensus" to me. I don't know of anyone "in the business" who belives screwcaps allow wine to age well. There are of course better screwcaps available now but, fuddy duddy that I am, I see it more as marketing than good wine making practice.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one.
I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.
Agreed, there is reluctance among conservative consumers, particularly in France, to associate quality wine with screwcaps but that is changing.
To me the notion that quality wine that can be laid down can only come in corked bottles is as blinkered as the notion some people have that really high quality wine can only come from France.

In a funny twist, the popular perception that French wine is of poor quality and overpriced is so pervasive that there is very good value in French wines ATM compared to new world wines.

But yeah, I think wine suffers more than beer and spirits in terms of popular perception. I think one has to apply the test of what do I like and what don't I like.

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

I genuinely can't find any serious online claims that wine cannot age perfectly well with a good quality screwcap closure.

I'll fix that for ye right now

Wine will age behind a screwcap but not in the same way as behind a natural cork. Certainly not "perfectly well". It simply can't. A natural cork allows the wine to breath whereas a corkcrew (except the very best and far more expensive ones) hermetically seals the bottle.

There's big money behind telling the world that screwcaps are better. Millions have been spent getting that "click" just right. As I say for many wines screwcaps are fine but laying down such wines is a triumph of optimism (and marketing) over reality.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

In a funny twist, the popular perception that French wine is of poor quality and overpriced is so pervasive .....

Eh? We live in different worlds Johnny.

the beer revolu

Slaphead07 wrote: »

As I say for many wines screwcaps are fine but laying down such wines is a triumph of optimism (and marketing) over reality.

I simply do not believe this to be true and I have no doubt that time will prove me right! Modern screwcaps, just like corks, allow tiny amounts of gas transferral. Some interesting reading here.

It is very like the reluctance to believe that good quality beer can come in cans and can age just as well in cans as it can in bottles. There is such a strong association with cheap mass produced beer and cans that people can't make the mindshift. The same is true for wines and screwcaps.

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

Some interesting reading here.

You're offering me a wine writer arguing with the Daily Mail? :rolleyes: Ah now...

Anyway, my comments were specifically in relation to €7.50 wines being bought in a supermarket for laying down. The standard of screwtops being used here will not be "screwcaps with liners allowing different oxygen transmission rates".

the beer revolu

Slaphead07 wrote: »

You're offering me a wine writer arguing with the Daily Mail? :rolleyes: Ah now...

Anyway, my comments were specifically in relation to €7.50 wines being bought in a supermarket for laying down. The standard of screwtops being used here will not be "screwcaps with liners allowing different oxygen transmission rates".

A simple rule of thumb... if the wine has a screwtop not even the maker thinks it's going to improve with age!

??

Also, that is a multi buy sale price of €7.50 - normally retails @ €17 - and it genuinely does retail at that price.

This must be getting rather tiresome for everyone else. Lets agree to differ and see what the future reveals, shall we?;)

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

Also, that is a multi buy sale price of €7.50 - normally retails @ €17 - and it genuinely does retail at that price.

Ah now, I'm sure you know the way supermarket pricing works. They're not making a loss @ €7.50.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

In a funny twist, the popular perception that French wine is of poor quality and overpriced is so pervasive .....

Eh? We live in different worlds Johnny.

Yeah, you live in the world of making a profit from selling wine. You can get a cheaper, better quality claret than a new world red these days, but in most specialist wine shops they will sing the praises of a mediocre, overpriced new world over a French wine in my experience.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

... in most specialist wine shops they will sing the praises of a mediocre, overpriced new world over a French wine in my experience.

I'm guessing because they are getting better margins on the New World wines. I sell both but, for me, French wine is still the most complex and interesting. At the €9.99 mark I'd have great wines from all over. It's entirely subjective what people like.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

... in most specialist wine shops they will sing the praises of a mediocre, overpriced new world over a French wine in my experience.

I'm guessing because they are getting better margins on the New World wines. I sell both but, for me, French wine is still the most complex and interesting. At the €9.99 mark I'd have great wines from all over. It's entirely subjective what people like.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that there aren't discernable patterns and trends in wine, and at the moment there seems to be a perception that new world wines are better and cheaper, which I do not agree with.

Slaphead07

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

..... at the moment there seems to be a perception that new world wines are better and cheaper, which I do not agree with.

Nor I, but I haven't come across that perception at all, quite the opposite. Perhaps it's the type of shop I have.

duckworth

I haven't had time to go through the whole thread - but I have to say this - Screwcap wines are not completely airtight. The wine still breathes enough to age. Plenty of expensive wines intended for aging are being made with screwcaps, and particularly Australian and New Zealand ones.

Slaphead - I'm also interested as to why you think its worthless to age a Semillion? I'd point to the 2005 McWilliams Mount Pleasant Elizabeth as an example of a great semillion that has seen a couple of years of bottle aging, and is fantastic because of it. Robert Parker suggests drinking between now and 2020.

Why do you rubbish my point about the Tim Adams?

Slaphead07

duckworth wrote: »

Slaphead - I'm also interested as to why you think its worthless to age a Semillion? I'd point to the 2005 McWilliams Mount Pleasant Elizabeth as an example of a great semillion that has seen a couple of years of bottle aging, and is fantastic because of it. Robert Parker suggests drinking between now and 2020.

What I said was that you need to carefully chose wine (red or white) for a cellar. I don't think Tim Adams is the same as a 2005 McWilliams Mount Pleasant Elizabeth.

duckworth

Slaphead07 wrote: »

What I said was that you need to carefully chose wine (red or white) for a cellar.

What you said was there is no point in cellaring the Semillion - and I was asking why.

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I don't think Tim Adams is the same as a 2005 McWilliams Mount Pleasant Elizabeth.

I don't get your point here - I used the McWilliams as an example of a similar wine in the same price range, the same grape variety, with the same closure, that has benefitted greatly from aging.

Why do you say they are 'not the same'. Are you saying the Tim Adams wine is not as good quality as the McWilliams?

Slaphead07

duckworth wrote: »

I used the McWilliams as an example of a similar wine in the same price range, the same grape variety, with the same closure, that has benefitted greatly from aging.

that doesn't mean other "similar" wines will behave the same. To be honest I think that's a very liberal use of the word "greatly" there.

I really don't care what you buy for your cellar but I do care that another poster might think it's a great idea to buy do this too. I don't agree and was expressing that view. It's entirely subjective. If you believe that wine will improve then go for it.

duckworth

Slaphead07 wrote: »

that doesn't mean other "similar" wines will behave the same. To be honest I think that's a very liberal use of the word "greatly" there.

I really don't care what you buy for your cellar but I do care that another poster might think it's a great idea to buy do this too. I don't agree and was expressing that view. It's entirely subjective. If you believe that wine will improve then go for it.

Somebody mentioned a Tim Adams wine, and I jumped in to say I thought the whites were particularly good - and may even be good for aging. I'm simply disputing your dismissal that "there is no point whatsoever in cellaring that semillion".

Are you even familiar with Tim Adam's wines? You seem to be indicating they are some kind of generic crap because they come from a supermarket. Plenty of wine writers hold his wines in high regard - by coincidence, he came to visit Ireland last week.

Try one, you'll see.

Slaphead07

duckworth wrote: »

You seem to be indicating they are some kind of generic crap because they come from a supermarket.

I never said that. In my opinion it won't age well. That is all.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

duckworth wrote: »

You seem to be indicating they are some kind of generic crap because they come from a supermarket.

I never said that. In my opinion it won't age well. That is all.

Again, why not? If it's not that you've tried to age this particular wine, then what factors in your view suggest that it won't age well?

Slaphead07

I've stated my reasons several times already. I'm not going to go around in circles on this.

johnnyskeleton

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I've stated my reasons several times already. I'm not going to go around in circles on this.

No you haven't. When asked if you thought semillion wouldn't age you said no it's not that. When you said screw caps can't age and it was pointed out that some can, you maintained your position. You seeme to be suggesting that because it is cheaply available in a supermarket but you then denied that was your view, and when other people ommented on this specific wine you haven't said anything to the contrary about this specific wine.

So a bit of clarity as to what it is about this specific wine that tells you it will not age would be much appreciated.

Slaphead07

I'm not going to comment on a specific wine. End of.

I couldn't have been clearer on my views on screwcaps. To repeat.... cheap ones seal the wine in = no ageing. A €7.50 bottle will have a cheap screwcap so no point in aging.

puffishoes

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I'm not going to comment on a specific wine. End of.

To be fair to Johnny, you have all ready have stated your position on a specific wine. it's your position on that wine that's been asked to be clarified .

I think at this point everyone would appreciate some clarification. As you're someone who is in the business and I imagine your aim here was for some education but it seems you have caused more confusion that clarity.

Slaphead07

puffishoes wrote: »

.... you have all ready have stated your position on a specific wine. it's your position on that wine that's been asked to be clarified ...

What?

the beer revolu

Slaphead07 wrote: »

What?

Slaphead07 wrote: »

There is no point whatsoever in putting that semillion in a wine cellar. The Reisling maybe but I seriously doubt it. Keep the space for something worthwhile.

there you go!
remember now?

Slaphead07

the beer revolu wrote: »

there you go!
remember now?

My comment was about the grape variety, at that price range, from such a mainstream source. Not the wine itself.

I wrote a lengthy post a while ago on my thoughts on cellaring main steam wines and why it's not a good idea. I think it's pretty clear. I don't expect people to agree but some of this is very defensive.

mikep

Wow! Things are getting heated around here...

here are my thoughts...

It's wrong to suggest semillon won't age, Tyrrels Vat 1 is a legendary example. As previously mentioned the McWilliams Elizabeth is a great example as is the Tim Adams, oh wait these are available in supermarkets so must be crap....

On screwcaps Ch. Margaux are experimenting with screwcaps and report good results and will probably go that route eventually, I have left screwcaps age for a number of years and there IS as difference, ageing does happen....

On my stash we had the Lilian Ladouys 2006 last night..drinking nicely now but would benefit from a few more years put away. Available from Lidl still...

Probably won't be adding to my stock for a while but will update if we drink any more.

the beer revolu

mikep wrote: »

On screwcaps Ch. Margaux are experimenting with screwcaps and report good results and will probably go that route eventually, I have left screwcaps age for a number of years and there IS as difference, ageing does happen....

but only if they're not bought in a supermarket!
Haven't you been listening!!!??;)

Slaphead07

As these responses are based entirely on misquotes and misinterpretations, either intentional or otherwise, I really can’t respond. As I’ve said consistently, it’s all subjective, Enjoy your choices. G'night.

puffishoes

Slaphead07 wrote: »

There is no point whatsoever in putting that semillion in a wine cellar. The Reisling maybe but I seriously doubt it. Keep the space for something worthwhile.

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I was addressing a post on that specific wine.

Slaphead07 wrote: »

What I said was that you need to carefully chose wine (red or white) for a cellar. I don't think Tim Adams is the same as a 2005 McWilliams Mount Pleasant Elizabeth.

Maybe you can enlighten us in _why_ that specific wine won't age well.
I would have assumed people asking for your educated opinion being in the business is one of the great things about being in the business in the first place.

So can you answer the original question?

johnnyskeleton

To lighten the mood somewhat, my last two additions were a 2008 ch franc petit figeac and a 2005 ch lanessan. I suppose the trick is learning how not to drink them.

afatbollix

Does anyone think we should start again with a title of your wine collection, of drinking wine.

And have rules like no talking of screw caps.Just keep it to banter about what wines we are drinking that week or month?

zac8

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

2008 ch franc petit figeac

Have you tried this yet? I see it's on sale at 16.99 in O'Briens.

afatbollix

So Im off to the Alsace region next week, I have looked up the medal winning vinyards and planning on visiting them, but any advice would be great if you have any.

Slaphead07

afatbollix wrote: »

So Im off to the Alsace region next week, I have looked up the medal winning vinyards and planning on visiting them, but any advice would be great if you have any.

There are several vineyards owned by various members of the "Ginglinger" family. Don't pass them by! Enjoy.

mikep

Hi All

Haven't been here for a while..

Recently added to my stash are:
1988 Clos L'Eglise (for the crimbo dinner)
1996 Chx Rocher bellevue Figeac
1991 Chx Tronquoy-Lallande
1999 Chx Cantemerle

I recently opened one of the Tesco Finest Barolo..still V tannic but developing nicely.

Trying an '06 Vergelegen Reserve Cab Sauv, reduced to €10 at the mo in tesco. Am going to buy a few in the 25% offer thingy..€ 7.50 for this will be a bargain for putting away....Yum!

mikep

Just a quick not on the Tesco Finest Barolo 2006 , this repays putting away as we tried it over christmas, it needed a run through the good 'ol vinturi into the decanter but was delicious...so much so all 3 were demolished :rolleyes:
Keep an eye out for it in the next 25% off sale...

Also on the Vergelegen it will need a good few years put away and should turn out very good...another bargain in the 25% sales

My plan during 2013 is to buy a temperature controlled cabinet as where I store now gets a little warm in summer...

Any one else got anything to add???

Padraig Mor

Had high hopes of getting a temp controlled cabinet in the last while but it never happened! The 'wine cellar' (i.e. box in the bottom of cupboard) got a bit of attention over Christmas so is looking rather bare now - not that there was anything particularly 'special' there anyway! Highlight was probably a 2001 Chateau Peyrabon. Only a few bottles in there now, the 'star' (if you could call it that) being an 07 Tim Adams Aberfeldy Shiraz picked up from Tesco for €15 earlier in 2012. Think there's an Aldi Barolo there too - hopefully it'll be as good as your Barolo experience Mike! Should be receiving my 2010 Rhone en primeur collection (all one case of it!) some stage this year so may have to revisit the cabinet idea.....

Wobs

How about one of these:)

/http://www.spiralcellars.co.uk/

mikep

We were very bold last night and lashed into the Clos Du Val 2006 Merlot ...delicious once it opened up,could have lasted a good few more years!!!
The good thing is I can see that my wine stash is aging nicely in our non cellar!!
Going to lock the door and hide the key for a while.....

afatbollix

So got my first corked bottle of wine from starting my cellar press cupboard thing.

Not bad for a 100 bottle collection. It also was in the bargin bin in a supermarket in france, A 2009 Coute du Rhone and cost €1,50 so really I should of know it was vinegar from the start! But you win some you also lose some.

the beer revolu

afatbollix wrote: »

So got my first corked bottle of wine from starting my cellar press cupboard thing.

Not bad for a 100 bottle collection. It also was in the bargin bin in a supermarket in france, A 2009 Coute du Rhone and cost €1,50 so really I should of know it was vinegar from the start! But you win some you also lose some.

Any wine of any quality can be corked - the fact it was a rubbish wine would have nothing to do with it being corked. Corked wine doesn't taste of vinegar - it has a really strong musty smell and taste.

pwurple

the beer revolu wrote: »

Any wine of any quality can be corked - the fact it was a rubbish wine would have nothing to do with it being corked. Corked wine doesn't taste of vinegar - it has a really strong musty smell and taste.

Yup, only had one bottle of corked wine in my life, and it smelled of mushrooms and dust.