British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

If that was ALL this was about there would not be a problem.

To the person remembering it, it maybe just about WWI or WWII and nothing to do whatsoever with Northern Ireland.

Some familes would have descendents from both the British Army in WWI and old IRA who died. All they are doing is remembering both by wearing the poppy and the Lily.

Both symbols have negative connotations if people look hard enough.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

To the person remembering it, it maybe just about WWI or WWII and nothing to do whatsoever with Northern Ireland.

Ignorance of murderous activity in NI is no excuse, they know well that they are funding the lifestyle of the killers of hundreds of civilians in NI as well as Iraq etc.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Ignorance of murderous activity in NI is no excuse, they know well that they are funding the lifestyle of the killers of hundreds of civilians in NI as well as Iraq etc.

The Lily has negative consequences as well, that's the problem. People pointing at one of them and wearing the other, are a bit hypocritical tbh.

drumaneen

No (I'm Irish)

See an 'Irish Poppy" here http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/. Available now online.

partyguinness

getz wrote: »

Excellent. Glad I am not the only one who sees this.

Interestingly the USA does not show coffins of dead soldiers returning as support would plummet.

In the UK by contrast, they cant get enough of the coffins of soldiers of TV...hell that town just got a Royal Charter. It taps into the national psyche of wallowing and keeps the show going.

Am sure their is a PhD waiting for someone on that point.

quick easy answer,why are you watching british TV,reading british newspapers ,and more interested in what the british are up to, than living you own life ? and i think the PHD would be more interested in your mind than the british nation[/QUOTE]

LOL...quick easy answer to what? Is that the extent of your contribution...very intelligent...:rolleyes:

ps...I live in England...;)

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Carrying a gun and being a member of a terrorist organisation is illegal in Ireland as well.

Oh dear...there is a lot you do not understand.

partyguinness

ejmaztec wrote: »

It'll be 1690 when the regular Northern contributor arrives on the scene. This thread's like a Doctor Who episode on acid.

Yes because 1918 is more in vogue...:rolleyes:

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the blind moralistic bull**** of the terrorist sympathiser.

It takes one to know one...;)

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

quick easy answer,why are you watching british TV,reading british newspapers ,and more interested in what the british are up to, than living you own life ? and i think the PHD would be more interested in your mind than the british nation

LOL...quick easy answer to what? Is that the extent of your contribution...very intelligent...:rolleyes:

ps...I live in England...;)[/QUOTE]
talking about the hand that feeds you,[they let anyone in the UK nowadays]the british legions poppy appeal is a charity,not some secret british agenda to undermine a free ireland, no one is telling anyone that they should wear a poppy,but there are many on these threads who seem to believe its un-patroitic to be seen with one on in ireland,

Rubecula

No (I'm British/not Irish)

I will be and have been wearing mine withh a certain amount of pride. I will continue to do so. What others do is entirely up to them.

rsole1

Fetchthegin - You managed to destroy your country all on your own this time.

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh dear...there is a lot you do not understand.

Yes there is, tracker mortgages for one.

You on the other hand know it all I presume.

ejmaztec

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes because 1918 is more in vogue...:rolleyes:

As a reply to my post, your comment doesn't seem to be relevant, or even meaningful.

old hippy

gurramok wrote: »

Ignorance of murderous activity in NI is no excuse, they know well that they are funding the lifestyle of the killers of hundreds of civilians in NI as well as Iraq etc.

Who remembers the victims of nationalism, I wonders.

Who wears a flower for those still missing, buried under some nameless grave?

Fratton Fred

old hippy wrote: »

Who remembers the victims of nationalism, I wonders.

Who wears a flower for those still missing, buried under some nameless grave?

That is a good point.

Irish people should be more ashamed of the lily, if it does indeed commemorate those that died in the IRA, then it is also commemorating the people that killed thousands of civilians.

Or, put it another way, the Irish Republican Paramilitaries killed more Irish people than the British army, so the Lilly that is sold by SF etc is more disrespectful to Irish people than the Poppy.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is a good point.

Irish people should be more ashamed of the Poppy, if it does indeed commemorate those that died in the IRA, then it is also commemorating the people that killed thousands of civilians.

Or, put it another way, the Irish Republican Paramilitaries killed more Irish people than the British army, so the Lilly that is sold by SF etc is more disrespectful to Irish people than the Poppy.

Don't tell us who we should be proud of and who we shouldn't be. We're Irish, not British. Keep your poppy.

SWL

old hippy wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland and NI are two different countries.

No they are not, they are different Jurisdictions

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Don't tell us who we should be proud of and who we shouldn't be. We're Irish, not British. Keep your poppy.

I will thanks.

Leftist

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Don't tell us who we should be proud of and who we shouldn't be. We're Irish, not British. Keep your poppy.

What an ridiculous statement.

Leftist

SWL wrote: »

No they are not, they are different Jurisdictions

What?

Jurisdiction:
the power, right, or authority to interpret and apply the law. 2. a : the authority of a sovereign power to govern or legislate

That would suggest they are part of the same governing body.

They are not.

They are two seperate states.

old hippy

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Don't tell us who we should be proud of and who we shouldn't be. We're Irish, not British. Keep your poppy.

Don't tell us who we should be proud of and who we shouldn't be. We're human beings after all. One world. Keep your hatreds.

old hippy

SWL wrote: »

No they are not, they are different Jurisdictions

Different countries

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is a good point.

Irish people should be more ashamed of the lily, if it does indeed commemorate those that died in the IRA, then it is also commemorating the people that killed thousands of civilians.

Or, put it another way, the Irish Republican Paramilitaries killed more Irish people than the British army, so the Lilly that is sold by SF etc is more disrespectful to Irish people than the Poppy.

How many million innocent people were killed by the British Army in the name of your poppy? Kinda negates the point you made above eh?

bobbysands81

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

SWL wrote: »

Will you also be wearing the Easter lily to commemorate “many good Irish men” who fought in the 1916/civil wars?

If not why not – the men who fought in those wars were also brave good men – I would hate to think you are wearing the poppy to antagonise or simply because it’s glamorous.

I believe that political efforts carried out by Irish politicians in Westminster did much more to further freedom than any militant bearing a gun did. You could say that I'm skeptical of the narrative that has been whipped up by many to turn the 1916 Rising or the Civil War into glorious events. One could argue that the latter was wholly futile, and the former not far behind at least in comparison to the huge amount of effort put into ensuring that the Home Rule Bill passed through parliament.

Most people would say that war should only be a last resort. I don't believe the poppy is worn to say that war is great and fantastic, but rather it is used to remember those who died during the course of war.

gurramok

old hippy wrote: »

Who remembers the victims of nationalism, I wonders.

Who wears a flower for those still missing, buried under some nameless grave?

They certainly do not remember the victims of the British Army, they remember the killers of unarmed civilians alright by wearing a poppy, all murdered in their name.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

They certainly do not remember the victims of the British Army, they remember the killers of unarmed civilians alright by wearing a poppy, all murdered in their name.

What does this have to do with people remembering the dead at war? - Yes, what the British Army did in Northern Ireland at times was disgraceful, and what the Provos / RIRA etc did in Northern Ireland was disgraceful. There has been a certain acknowledgement of that on both sides.

Why should this preclude people taking time out on November 11th to remember those who have fallen at war?

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

What does this have to do with people remembering the dead at war? - Yes, what the British Army did in Northern Ireland at times was disgraceful, and what the Provos / RIRA etc did in Northern Ireland was disgraceful. There has been a certain acknowledgement of that on both sides.

Why should this preclude people taking time out on November 11th to remember those who have fallen at war?

In case you have not read the thread, buying a poppy funds the welfare of the killers on Bloody Sunday for example, thats why it is relevant.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

In case you have not read the thread, buying a poppy funds the welfare of the killers on Bloody Sunday for example, thats why it is relevant.

As other posters have noted, the money that is raised in Ireland is spent on members in the Republic of Ireland. Money raised in Britain is raised for members in Britain.

This is one of these threads where dogmatic nationalists tell people what is and what isn't acceptable for Irish people to do. Ultimately people have brains and will come to their own conclusions.

If you don't want to get a poppy that's fine, but as for what other people do, that's what they will do. The same with the Easter Lily. Personally, I'll never wear one but if others want to why not?

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

As other posters have noted, the money that is raised in Ireland is spent on members in the Republic of Ireland. Money raised in Britain is raised for members in Britain.

This is one of these threads where dogmatic nationalists tell people what is and what isn't acceptable for Irish people to do. Ultimately people have brains and will come to their own conclusions.

If you don't want to get a poppy that's fine, but as for what other people do, that's what they will do. The same with the Easter Lily. Personally, I'll never wear one but if others want to why not?

Its offensive as their funds help the killers of Irish people murdered by the British Army in Northern Ireland no matter what jurisdiction those killers were from. People have brains to realise funding those killers is not on.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Its offensive as their funds help the killers of Irish people murdered by the British Army in Northern Ireland no matter what jurisdiction those killers were from. People have brains to realise funding those killers is not on.

If the money was primarily to support those people and those people only, I'd understand your objection, but it is used for a much broader purpose. As others have said already, money that is raised in the Republic is used in the Republic. So funds raised in the Republic for the poppy wouldn't benefit the people that you described even if you held such a grudge towards them all these years on.

As for your understanding of the people on Bloody Sunday, my understanding would be more leaning towards mercy and forgiveness to both sides in order to move forward. I don't consider the actions of the Provos or the RIRA to be any less or indeed more disgusting than the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday.

Madd Finn

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I salute anyone who prevented me and mine speaking German.

Aber Herr Dolenz. Das ist doch eine Deutsche name.

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

If the money was primarily to support those people and those people only, I'd understand your objection, but it is used for a much broader purpose. As others have said already, money that is raised in the Republic is used in the Republic. So funds raised in the Republic for the poppy wouldn't benefit the people that you described even if you held such a grudge towards them all these years on.

As for your understanding of the people on Bloody Sunday, my understanding would be more leaning towards mercy and forgiveness to both sides in order to move forward. I don't consider the actions of the Provos or the RIRA to be any less or indeed more disgusting than the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday.

The funds in ROI go to soldiers who served in NI. Likewise for funds raised in UK. No difference, those killers still get funding no matter where they were from.

Buying a poppy opens the wounds of the victims all these years later. If they didn't get funding from the poppy, there wouldn't be much objection as the poppy was originally intended to remember the fallen from WW1, not NI or Iraq.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

Thanks for that Mr Sands, (can't believe I said that), but it is very interesting reading, and I can, to a point see what he's getting at, it is indeed very annoying to see so many people on the TV this time of year wearing the little paper poppy with the leaf 'just because you do' . . . . . and if you were to quiz them they probably wouldn't have a clue about the massive sacrifice & needless loss, they just follow the fashion "ya know what I mean, innit" brigade, but this is where I part company from Mr Fisk & his logic. There are so many more of us who really think deeply about the meaning of the poppy & what it stands for, we are not all ninnies or sheep, some of actually had an uncle or grandfather who actually lost his life in either the Great War or WWII, and for that reason I will always mark November to remember the dead & think "What a bloody waste of so many lives" - PS WWII and the poppy probably has a different connotation, there was no question about the fighting, because it really was a just war that just had to stop Hitler in his tracks, and at any cost.

Latchy

No (I'm Irish)

LordSutch;75320109] that reason I will always mark November to remember the dead & think "What a bloody waste of so many lives"

That's the most important thing about wearing the poppy , to reminds us of the waste of lives ,whole generations of young men who were slaughtered .

Silent Runner

No (I'm Irish)

Has anyone ever seen the Red Poppy with green shamrocks underneath it?

Judgement Day

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

And we all know what an impartial hack Bob Fisk is. :rolleyes:

Snickers Man

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

Interesting article. I think it's very similar in sentiment to Siegried Sassoon's famous poem.

On Passing the new Menin Gate
by Siegfried Sassoon
Who will remember, passing through this Gate,
The unheroic Dead who fed the guns?
Who shall absolve the foulness of their fate,—
Those doomed, conscripted, unvictorious ones?
Crudely renewed, the Salient holds its own.
Paid are its dim defenders by this pomp;
Paid, with a pile of peace-complacent stone,
The armies who endured that sullen swamp.

Here was the world’s worst wound. And here with pride
‘Their name liveth for ever,’ the Gateway claims.
Was ever an immolation so belied
As these intolerably nameless names?
Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime
Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Silent Runner wrote: »

Has anyone ever seen the Red Poppy with green shamrocks underneath it?

Well would you believe there is for the 1st time an 'Irish Poppy badge' which marks it out from the traditional poppy. This new (Irish only) variation is a small green metal lapel badge, with a tiny poppy in the centre! http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/Facebook%20button.jpg

round tower huntsman

wearing a poppy shows support for the people that did this

NinjaK

Should Jews wear swastikas?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Its offensive as their funds help the killers of Irish people murdered by the British Army in Northern Ireland no matter what jurisdiction those killers were from. People have brains to realise funding those killers is not on.

Why is it offensive?

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

round tower huntsman wrote: »

wearing a poppy shows support for the people that did this

who did what?

round tower huntsman

tried to up load a video but it wouldnt work.

Step23

No (I'm Irish)

NinjaK wrote: »

Should Jews wear swastikas?

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

slimjimmc

Step23 wrote: »

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

One estimate is closer to 150,000 http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Today is the Irish UN Vets Association's national day of commemoration.

At today's wreath laying ceremony at IUNVA's H.Q. (Post 1) in Arbour hill we had no hang ups in accepting Poppy wreaths from The Royal British Legion and representatives from The Royal Air Force, The Royal Navy and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Seanchai

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

Today is the Irish UN Vets Association's national day of commemoration.

At today's wreath laying ceremony at IUNVA's H.Q. (Post 1) in Arbour hill we had no hang ups in accepting Poppy wreaths from The Royal British Legion and representatives from The Royal Air Force, The Royal Navy and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Einhard

Seanchai wrote: »

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

ejmaztec

Some of the posts in thread would make a sackful of lemons taste sweet by comparison.