British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

slapbangwallop

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is why I question your reading ability. Not once have I said that I expect Irish people to wear the Poppy and twice (now three times) I have pointed this out.

Rabble rabble 800 years rabble famine rabble.

Yet you voted "yes" in the Poll.

You are coming across as sounding like a hypocrite.

Snakeblood

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Yet you voted "yes" in the Poll.

You are coming across as sounding like a hypocrite.

Possibly he interpreted as 'be free to' rather than 'have to'. Nowhere in the world 'has to' wear a poppy.

Morlar

Snakeblood wrote: »

Possibly he interpreted as 'be free to' rather than 'have to'. Nowhere in the world 'has to' wear a poppy.

I am sure Fred can speak for himself but the question is clear :

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Fratton Fred

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Yet you voted "yes" in the Poll.

You are coming across as sounding like a hypocrite.

I haven't voted, because it is a loaded question.

slapbangwallop

If you want to know what people mean when they say "Poppy facism" just check out C4 now.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

The poppy commemorates the British Army, including those who occuppied this country and have Irish blood on their hands. What makes you think any self respecting Irish person should commemorate the forces that occuppied their own country and murdered their own fellow country men ? Would you ?

The Easter Lily commemorates those who rose up against and fought those forces.

It also commemorates those we now serve alongside in Bosnia and Afghanistan today, it commemorates the same arm's of the British forces who protect our shores, and provide cover to our search and rescue teams over our sea's, hills & mountains.

You know you can be a republican, an Irish nationalist, and have a progressive into our future with Britain - there really is no shame in it.

I'd consider myself one, I'm delighted to be leaving our shared past behind us.

Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs. Most don't even speak about their experiences among themselves.

During the presidential campaign some supporters (in this thread) of MMG asked people to put the IRA's dreadful past behind us for the greater good - then use the occasion of wearing the poppy to drag us all kicking and screaming back into the past & through Britains deeds - ffs get a grip.

Wolfe Tone

Progressive = Revisionist for a great deal of people it seems.

slapbangwallop

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

It also commemorates those we now serve alongside in Bosnia and Afghanistan today, it commemorates the same arm's of the British forces who protect our shores, and provide cover to our search and rescue teams over our sea's, hills & mountains.

You know you can be a republican, an Irish nationalist, and have a progressive into our future with Britain - there really is no shame in it.

I'd consider myself one, I'm delighted to be leaving our shared past behind us.

Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs. Most don't even speak about their experiences among themselves.

During the presidential campaign some supporters (in this thread) of MMG asked people to put the IRA's dreadful past behind us for the greater good - then use the occasion of wearing the poppy to drag us all kicking and screaming back into the past & through Britains deeds - ffs get a grip.

What completely and utterly mixed up nonsense.

Forget the past by commemortating British soliders that tramped around an occupied Ireland.

Fantastic, no really, fantastic!

p.s. "Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs." - no it was through embarrassment, he has told me so. He and a few guys he knew joined because there wasnt a tap of work. They were stationed in some signals location between Liverpool and Mancester and saw no action. What exactly is there to be proud of that?

Stick your Poppy up your a*** as far as I am concerned! Harsh, yeah it probably is but I am having an allergic reaction to all the short memoried ass kicking PC warriors that think that commemorating British soliders in Ireland should get you anything other than a slap in the jaw.

Lets cut the BS!

Fratton Fred

slapbangwallop wrote: »

What completely and utterly mixed up nonsense.

Forget the past by commemortating British soliders that tramped around an occupied Ireland.

Fantastic, no really, fantastic!

p.s. "Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs." - no it was through embarrassment, he has told me so. He and a few guys he knew joined because there wasnt a tap of work. They were stationed in some signals location between Liverpool and Mancester and saw no action. What exactly is there to be proud of that?

Stick your Poppy up your a*** as far as I am concerned! Harsh, yeah it probably is but I am having an allergic reaction to all the short memoried ass kicking PC warriors that think that commemorating British soliders in Ireland should get you anything other than a slap in the jaw.

Lets cut the BS!

LoL

Keyboard warrior.

ejmaztec

slapbangwallop wrote: »

What completely and utterly mixed up nonsense.

Forget the past by commemortating British soliders that tramped around an occupied Ireland.

Fantastic, no really, fantastic!

p.s. "Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs." - no it was through embarrassment, he has told me so. He and a few guys he knew joined because there wasnt a tap of work. They were stationed in some signals location between Liverpool and Mancester and saw no action. What exactly is there to be proud of that?

Stick your Poppy up your a*** as far as I am concerned! Harsh, yeah it probably is but I am having an allergic reaction to all the short memoried ass kicking PC warriors that think that commemorating British soliders in Ireland should get you anything other than a slap in the jaw.

Lets cut the BS!

That's probably the reason for there being nothing to talk about.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Progressive = Revisionist for a great deal of people it seems.

I thought about that before using the word 'progressive'.

I'm certainly not a revisionist.

Was I a revisionist when during the presidential campaign I pondered the question of MMG's IRA murdering my comrades, or members of AGS?.

When MMG spoke about growing up on the streets of Derry I understood completely where he was coming from and couldn't say I wouldn't have taken the same path.

But it beats the crap out of me why people want to hang onto Britains deeds so badly, do they think those deeds will be forgotten?... Or maybe there's a sizable population of Ireland who just want to move the fvck on and not be made feel shamed that their father's, grand & great grandfather's fought in war's in a British uniform.

I bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t if you were drowning out in the Atlantic ocean and an RAF winchman came to your rescue because we couldn't provide cover you'd kiss his/her sweet little heart from here to eternity.

slapbangwallop

ejmaztec wrote: »

That's probably the reason for there being nothing to talk about.

Yeah, bet he was gutted with that posting. :rolleyes:

Got to nail a plenty of local lassies which made his time all the bareable I guess.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Stick your Poppy up your a*** as far as I am concerned! Harsh, yeah it probably is but I am having an allergic reaction to all the short memoried ass kicking PC warriors that think that commemorating British soliders in Ireland should get you anything other than a slap in the jaw.

Lets cut the BS!

lol, your threatening me with a punch in the jaw :pac:

And you the one with an infraction in this thread already, you've a neck I'll give you that.

slapbangwallop

Fratton Fred wrote: »

LoL

Keyboard warrior.

yeah! :rolleyes:

K-9

FetchTheGin wrote: »

WTF has this got to do with anything?!

The post was about the British Army murdering around the world. the blood of innocents as you put it.

The IRA have the blood of innocents on their hands, simple comparison, even murdered a few in Europe.

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

During the presidential campaign some supporters (in this thread) of MMG asked people to put the IRA's dreadful past behind us for the greater good - then use the occasion of wearing the poppy to drag us all kicking and screaming back into the past & through Britains deeds - ffs get a grip.

Exactly.

ejmaztec

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Yeah, bet he was gutted with that posting. :rolleyes:

Got to nail a plenty of local lassies which made his time all the bareable I guess.

He must have mentioned the war after all, in that case.

slapbangwallop

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

lol, your threatening me with a punch in the jaw :pac:

And you the one with an infraction in this thread already, you've a neck I'll give you that.

Who am I threatening? I am not saying I would do anything. I just find your screw logic both distrubing, ass kissing, revisionist and unpalatable.

I'll leave it to others to dish out the slaps, bangs and wallops should they see fit.

Fratton Fred

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Yeah, bet he was gutted with that posting. :rolleyes:

Got to nail a plenty of local lassies which made his time all the bareable I guess.

But basically his embarrassment had nothing to do with joining the army, it was to do with the fact his war experience was little more than sat at a desk writing memos.

ejmaztec

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

lol, your threatening me with a punch in the jaw :pac:

And you the one with an infraction in this thread already, you've a neck I'll give you that.

Can I hold your coat?

slapbangwallop

ejmaztec wrote: »

He must have mentioned the war after all, in that case.

not sure what kind of sex your have but I guess it must be pretty hardcore if you consider it a war!

slapbangwallop

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But basically his embarrassment had nothing to do with joining the army, it was to do with the fact his war experience was little more than sat at a desk writing memos.

wrong. His embarrassment was due to having join the British Army when he knew it was full of complete and utter c***, he felt people would include him in thatnumber.

peter110788

No (I'm Irish)

Quick thought.. If all the british lads hadn't fought in the world wars, do you think once england was invaded that they would have stopped there, or moved on an invaded ireland as well? We owe all the lads that fought for freedom whatever country they fought for.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Who am I threatening? I am not saying I would do anything. I just find your screw logic both distrubing, ass kissing, revisionist and unpalatable.

I'll other to dish out the slaps, bangs and wallops should they see fit.

I know you wouldn't.

And this;

I'll other to dish out the slaps, bangs and wallops should they see fit.

Doesn't make sense.

Unless your threatening that you can get other's to give me a few?.

Fratton Fred

slapbangwallop wrote: »

I'll other to dish out the slaps, bangs and wallops should they see fit.

But when they do it on a larger scale, ie Bosnia, Afghanistan or Kuwait you'll just point at them and call them murdering bullet dodgers from a Wigan council estate.

ejmaztec

slapbangwallop wrote: »

not sure what kind of sex your have but I guess it must be pretty hardcore if you consider it a war!

I can see now that you don't know what a war is.

Morlar

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

It also commemorates those we now serve alongside in Bosnia and Afghanistan today, it commemorates the same arm's of the British forces who protect our shores, and provide cover to our search and rescue teams over our sea's, hills & mountains.

You know you can be a republican, an Irish nationalist, and have a progressive into our future with Britain - there really is no shame in it.

I'd consider myself one, I'm delighted to be leaving our shared past behind us.

Someone mentioned his grandfather not speaking about his war experiences, he'll find most soldiers don't. Its not through embarrassment ffs. Most don't even speak about their experiences among themselves.

During the presidential campaign some supporters (in this thread) of MMG asked people to put the IRA's dreadful past behind us for the greater good - then use the occasion of wearing the poppy to drag us all kicking and screaming back into the past & through Britains deeds - ffs get a grip.

There is no requirement to wear a Royal British Legion poppy in order to commemorate Irishmen who fought in the British Army during WW1.

It's not a requirement in any way shape or form.

The vast overwhelming focus and intent behind the poppy is to commemorate the British Army. The Irish in WW1 B.A. uniform encompass about a single percentage point in terms of what it is all about.

The rest of what it is all about unfortunately includes the British Army who served in Ireland and who have a horrific record right up to very recent times.

During the Presidential election no one was asking the British public to wear a pro-PIRA pin badge.

Which would be the equivalent move to expecting Irish people to wear a Poppy in my view.

Those advocating or pushing for Irish people to wear a poppy ought to have consideration to Irish circumstances on this subject. No British person would ever commemorate an army that had occuppied their country and murdered their own citizens & likewise I do not think it's reasonable to expect an Irish person to do likewise. There is nothing 'delusional or tunnel vision' or 'living in the past' aobut that - it's just the way it undeniably is. 'Progress' and other such buzzwords when you break them down do not involve one side refusing to acknowledge the past.

slapbangwallop

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

I know you wouldn't.

And this;

Doesn't make sense.

Unless your threatening that you can get other's to give me a few?.

I see you are boring and predictable as well as a mixed up revisionist.

dr.bollocko

slapbangwallop wrote: »

I see you are boring and predictable as well as a mixed up revisionist.

mod:
banned.

Wolfe Tone

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

I thought about that before using the word 'progressive'.

I'm certainly not a revisionist.

Was I a revisionist when during the presidential campaign I pondered the question of MMG's IRA murdering my comrades, or members of AGS?.

When MMG spoke about growing up on the streets of Derry I understood completely where he was coming from and couldn't say I wouldn't have taken the same path.

But it beats the crap out of me why people want to hang onto Britains deeds so badly, do they think those deeds will be forgotten?... Or maybe there's a sizable population of Ireland who just want to move the fvck on and not be made feel shamed that their father's, grand & great grandfather's fought in war's in a British uniform.

I bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t if you were drowning out in the Atlantic ocean and an RAF winchman came to your rescue because we couldn't provide cover you'd kiss his/her sweet little heart from here to eternity.

I wasn't calling yourself revisionist, sorry if it appeared that way.


Moving the "fcuk on" does not equate to glorifying the British army, or giving money to an organization which does so, all the while ignoring the sacrifices made by Irish men (your certainly not guilty on that score) and regarding doing so as backwards or regressive. That is what a hell of a lot of the poppy brigade do, and have done so on this very thread, they mock and deride the suffering of the Irish as "800 years rabble" while go on about the "noble sacrifice" of British soldiers.

For a great many people, it seems they think that "progressive" is slagging off Irish patriots and bigging up British ones, and that sticks in my graw. (again, thats not aimed at yourself)

My own great grandfather fought for the British army out of economic necessity, he was blacklisted I believe. When I want to remember him I visit his grave, look at pictures, things you normally do to remember relatives. I don't fund a support service for ex British soldiers who served in the North.

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But basically his embarrassment had nothing to do with joining the army, it was to do with the fact his war experience was little more than sat at a desk writing memos.

It's a little known fact that it was the memo bombardment that broke the back of the Nazis. If it hadn't been for them, the war wouldn't have ended until 1961.

Wolfe Tone

K-9 wrote: »

The post was about the British Army murdering around the world. the blood of innocents as you put it.

The IRA have the blood of innocents on their hands, simple comparison, even murdered a few in Europe.




Exactly.

If we were asking you to wear this:

http://www.printfection.com/ira/IRA-Undefeated-Army-T-Shirt/_p_2047244

You would have a point.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a little known fact that it was the memo bombardment that broke the back of the Nazis. If it hadn't been for them, the war wouldn't have ended until 1961.

Death by a thousand memos.

The fate of many a good administrator.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

WT you and I have spoken via PM's in the past, so you know a little of my background.

I just don't get people who hang onto what happened here in Ireland and try to beat it down my throat at every oppertunity.

The poppy, I have cause to be in regular enough contact with the British Legion and usually donate. In truth I've never worn it, however I do put it on the dashboard of my car.

I don't know a whole lot about my great grandfather after the war, if he ever got a penny from the legion.

As a military man myself I really am very proud of the fact that he served, if I wasn't a military person I can't honestly say I'd feel the same.

K-9

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If we were asking you to wear this:

http://www.printfection.com/ira/IRA-Undefeated-Army-T-Shirt/_p_2047244

You would have a point.

Nah, it would be the Lily which remembers dead IRA men who dies in active service.

It's the people that wear it and then condemn the poppy that I don't get. Suppose remembering somebody like the Shankhill bomber is okay as long as they agreed with the ideology.

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

K-9 wrote: »

Nah, it would be the Lily which remembers dead IRA men who dies in active service.QUOTE]

Yes, dead IRA men who fell in 1916 and those who died in the Civil war;)

K-9

Madam wrote: »

K-9 wrote: »

Nah, it would be the Lily which remembers dead IRA men who dies in active service.QUOTE]

Yes, dead IRA men who fell in 1916 and those who died in the Civil war;)

Obviously.

Wolfe Tone

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

WT you and I have spoken via PM's in the past, so you know a little of my background.

I just don't get people who hang onto what happened here in Ireland and try to beat it down my throat at every opportunity.

The poppy, I have cause to be in regular enough contact with the British Legion and usually donate. In truth I've never worn it, however I do put it on the dashboard of my car.

I don't know a whole lot about my great grandfather after the war, if he ever got a penny from the legion.

As a military man myself I really am very proud of the fact that he served, if I wasn't a military person I can't honestly say I'd feel the same.

I do, which is why I'm surprised that you would effectively give money to British soldiers who served in the north.

http://omg.wthax.org/Vets_Burn_discharge_papers_2.jpg

Thats a picture of British army veterans burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the BA in the north, against themselves, their families and friends. If I'm honest I find it unthinkable to give cash to a group which would help those same soldiers whose actions prompted that protest.


I get wanting to do something to remember your great grandfather, I do. But giving money to a group which;

remembers the sacrifices that hundreds of thousands of British and Commonwealth Service men and women made not just during the Great War, but World War II and all subsequent wars and conflicts including Iraq and Afghanistan.

and gives loans, organizes holidays, gives advise, support etc etc etc to British soldiers who caused so much suffering to Irish people in the north (you can be sure as hell they "help" British soldiers who served in the north in the 70s, 80s and 90s) is not the way I do it.

Its a free country of course and everyones entitled to do what they want with their money, but I'm curious as to whether or not everyone who gets poppies knows what their money goes towards. Its a nice thought, thinking that the money goes towards say, home help for 80 year old Patrick from Cork who fought the Nazis, but more than half of the people who benefit from the cash are "under the retirement age".

This is a debate and discussion on the merits of the poppy, I don't want to give the impression that I go around interrogating people on why they have a poppy on, I don't. Unless someone brought it up and asked me my honest opinion on it, I would just ignore it.


EDIT: My posts come accross a bit combative at times, just to be clear I'm not having a go or anything

Fratton Fred

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

As a military man myself I really am very proud of the fact that he served, if I wasn't a military person I can't honestly say I'd feel the same.

I'm not a military person, but I can genuinely empathise with what those guys went through.

I've been to Arras and Ypres and seen the cemeteries and witnessed the nightly ceremony at the Menin gate. It is all very moving, especially when you read the graves and realise that row upon row are young men who died on the same day, in just one campaign.

For me though, the real eye opener is the Canadian memorial at Vimy. To see the trenches and tunnels and see how the battles changed the landscape there. It really brings it home.

My great Granfather's submarine was lost with all hands in WWI. My grandmother was five at the last time she saw him and refused to kiss him goodbye (as kids often do) when he went to sea. Him standing in the kitchen in his uniform is her only memory of him as being a professional submariner he didn't get to spend a lot of time at home.

Personally I think it is wrong to hold a grudge, whilst I wouldn't EXPECT a Brit to commemorate German deaths, I would have no problem doing so and I would be quite happy to go to Glencree for the German remembrance ceremony up there.

As has been said, remembering the past and being stuuck in it are two different things.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Rabble rabble 800 years rabble famine rabble.

Interesting comment.
You see Fred , like all peoples, we remember and discuss our history, sure isn't this very thread based on a British remembering of history. The only reason you make comments like the one above, is because you feel a twinge every time our history is mentioned due to your country's abominable record here, many Germans don't like hearing about WWII for the very same reason.

Rabble rabble Ypres rabble blitz, saved you from nazies rabble rabble.

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Interesting comment.
You see Fred , like all peoples, we remember and discuss our history, sure isn't this very thread based on a British remembering of history. The only reason you make comments like the one above, is because you feel a twinge every time our history is mentioned due to your country's abominable record here, many Germans don't like hearing about WWII for the very same reason.

Rabble rabble Ypres rabble blitz, saved you from nazies rabble rabble.

When the British blame all their problems on the Germans then it might be comparable.

Wolfe Tone

K-9 wrote: »

Nah, it would be the Lily which remembers dead IRA men who dies in active service.

It's the people that wear it and then condemn the poppy that I don't get. Suppose remembering somebody like the Shankhill bomber is okay as long as they agreed with the ideology.

I don't put much weight in the Liliy, I haven't worn one and I would hate if the Lily were to become like the poppy were everyone was forced to wear one.

Its curious, the poppy brigade will typically refuse to wear a Lily saying that it has been "hijacked" by republicans (yeah) yet they will wear a poppy, a symbol which has been totally hijacked by a Uber nationalistic British organization. Go figure.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

EDIT: My posts come accross a bit combative at times, just to be clear I'm not having a go or anything

Actually you don't. You've an old head on young shoulders and I've often found you the voice of reason in these debates.

I'll be honest about it, if a British soldier was suffering a disability due to his/her service in the north of Ireland and was receiving financial support via an organisation I'd donated to - I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I don't hate individuals, I hate successive British governments who sent their troops here to occupy the north. But the individual soldier, nah I can't hate.

But then again, as I get older I'm becoming softer and softer on people.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its curious, the poppy brigade will typically refuse to wear a Lily saying that it has been "hijacked" by republicans (yeah) yet they will wear a poppy, a symbol which has been totally hijacked by a Uber nationalistic British organization. Go figure.

Totally? I disagree, with I guess 100% of the people visiting the Remembrance exhibition (post#731) as genuine Irish people who wish to commemorate the fallen in a respectful way.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

I think if anyone on this thread has a 'deluded tunnel vision of the past' it's those arguing in favour of Irish people wearing a British Legion Poppy.


To me that would be the epitomy of a 'Deluded tunnel vision view of the Past'.

Irish people do wear the Poppy. Its not one culture or one tradition on the island any more. There is Irish and British people who wear the poppy now.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When the British blame all their problems on the Germans then it might be comparable.

No, it is identical, you just can't see it because it would hurt your pride to much.
If we want to "mention the war" in our own country then we will, and no foreigner has the right to come over here and complain about it.

My Grandfather used to tell me stories his grandmother told him about what life was like here during the famine, it makes my (and others) blood boil to read comments such as yours coming from someone from the country that was responsible for that horror.
Interesting that you make comments about the horrors of Ypres or Arras yet any comments you make about another horror, are in a slightly different vein. Disgusting.

Where To

No (I'm Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No, it is identical, you just can't see it because it would hurt your pride to much.
If we want to "mention the war" in our own country then we will, and no foreigner has the right to come over here and complain about it.

My Grandfather used to tell me stories his grandmother told him about what life was like here during the famine, it makes my (and others) blood boil to read comments such as yours coming from someone from the country that was responsible for that horror.
Interesting that you make comments about the horrors of Ypres or Arras yet any comments you make about another horror, are in a slightly different vein. Disgusting.

Have you get any stories handed down from the great economic decline in Ireland in 2500 BC? I've always been curious to discover if that was the Brits' doing also?

laoch na mona

Britain says to wear the poppy and who are to argue
sure didn't the always look after us and treat us well
ohhh wait never mind

Where To

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

Britain says to wear the poppy and who are to argue
sure didn't the always look after us and treat us well
ohhh wait never mind

Britain has fed, clothed, housed and gave employment to a lot more Irish than it has oppressed, that is a certainty.

laoch na mona

where do i go from here wrote: »

Britain has fed, clothed, housed and gave employment to a lot more Irish than it has oppressed, that is a certainty.

in my balls they denied us sovereignty, our culture, killed countless, marched more to there deaths, left us starve and now they get all pissey if someone calls Tone, Emmett, or any irish man who fought england a hero

ejmaztec

laoch na mona wrote: »

in my balls they denied us sovereignty, our culture, killed countless, marched more to there deaths, left us starve and now they get all pissey if someone calls Tone, Emmett, or any irish man who fought england a hero

Where'd they get a mention that made someone "pissey"?