British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Where To

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

in my balls they denied us sovereignty, our culture, killed countless, marched more to there deaths, left us starve and now they get all pissey if someone calls Tone, Emmett, or any irish man who fought england a hero

So the millions who left this country to live and work in Britain over the years are not Irish, are they not?

Countless houses that have been built in Ireland by returning migrant workers do not exist?

Irish people in receipt of British pensions are a myth?

I could go on, but I'll let you address these first.

laoch na mona

where do i go from here wrote: »

So the millions who left this country to live and work in Britain over the years are not Irish, are they not?

Countless houses that have been built in Ireland by returning migrant workers do not exist?

Irish people in receipt of British pensions are a myth?

I could go on, but I'll let you address these first.

your point please i have nothing against Britain but they should acknowledge there wrongs and let us celebrate defeating them

1 when did i say it was wrong to work in Britain

2 building houses what kind point is that what about everything the Irish built in Britain

3 if you did work for Britain then your entitled to a pension

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No, it is identical, you just can't see it because it would hurt your pride to much.
If we want to "mention the war" in our own country then we will, and no foreigner has the right to come over here and complain about it.

My Grandfather used to tell me stories his grandmother told him about what life was like here during the famine, it makes my (and others) blood boil to read comments such as yours coming from someone from the country that was responsible for that horror.
Interesting that you make comments about the horrors of Ypres or Arras yet any comments you make about another horror, are in a slightly different vein. Disgusting.

Iys got nothing to do with hurt pride or uber nationalism, it is frustration at Irish anger (a lot of which is based on propoganda rather than fact) is directed at the wrong people.

The Poppy is there to commemorate people who served and died in wars. Not those that sent them. To go on and on and on about not wearing a Poppy because of 800 years of oppression (to shorten what it is effectively that people are saying) is completely wrong.

As Makikomi says, hating individuals isn't the right people to be hating. Hating governments is closer to the mark.

How many of those soldiers escorting food around Ireland in the mid 19th century made any money out of it? Wolfe Tone made the point earlier that his Grandfather was in the British Army "for economic reasons". Has it ever occured to you that the English, Scottish and Welsh that joined the British army did it for the same reason?

Do you really think an Indian rebelling really cared that the British Soldier bayoneting him only did so because there was no work in Kerry?

What some people in Ireland need to do is to stop feeling this imaginary hurt for their forefathers and move on. Ffs, first world soldiers managed to come out of the trenches and share chocolate and play football on Christmas day, because they knew the men they were fighting were not their real enemy.

Still, they never experienced hardship like your great great grandparents so I guess they wouldn't understand.

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

in my balls they denied us sovereignty, our culture, killed countless, marched more to there deaths, left us starve and now they get all pissey if someone calls Tone, Emmett, or any irish man who fought england a hero

You are judging the British by your own standards.

No one is getting pissey about Tone or Emmet. It is only right they are acknowledged as heroic figures.

It appears to me that it is the Irish nationalists who are getting pissey about people recognising that maybe, just maybe, Britain had heroes too.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Iys got nothing to do with hurt pride or uber nationalism, it is frustration at Irish anger (a lot of which is based on propoganda rather than fact) is directed at the wrong people.

The Poppy is there to commemorate people who served and died in wars. Not those that sent them. To go on and on and on about not wearing a Poppy because of 800 years of oppression (to shorten what it is effectively that people are saying) is completely wrong.

As Makikomi says, hating individuals isn't the right people to be hating. Hating governments is closer to the mark.

How many of those soldiers escorting food around Ireland in the mid 19th century made any money out of it? Wolfe Tone made the point earlier that his Grandfather was in the British Army "for economic reasons". Has it ever occured to you that the English, Scottish and Welsh that joined the British army did it for the same reason?

Do you really think an Indian rebelling really cared that the British Soldier bayoneting him only did so because there was no work in Kerry?

Ffs, first world soldiers managed to come out of the trenches and share chocolate and play football on Christmas day, because they knew the men they were fighting were not their real enemy.

Still, they never experienced hardship like your great great grandparents so I guess they wouldn't understand.

Every single thread you post in regarding Irish/British affairs you say the same thing, (to paraphrase) "bla bla 800 years famine bla bla" irrespective of the topic. So don't try and say your comment was actually about the topic here, you hate Irish people talking about Britain's role here because of their dodgy track record and you are English, nothing more.

What some people in Ireland need to do is to stop feeling this imaginary hurt for their forefathers and move on.

Imaginary? What my and the rest of the Irish peoples forefathers felt was far from imaginary, and we will no more forget our history than the English people will theirs.
I tell you something Fratton, I would never ever be so utterly ignorant as to go over to another country and tell the people there what they should or shouldn't feel about their past, something that I am quite proud to say completely differentiates me from you.

Where To

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

your point please i have nothing against Britain but they should acknowledge there wrongs and let us celebrate defeating them

1 when did i say it was wrong to work in Britain

2 building houses what kind point is that what about everything the Irish built in Britain

3 if you did work for Britain then your entitled to a pension

My point is that for most Irish people the positive impact of Britain on their lives greatly outweighs the negative. The 'big bad Brits' excuse doesn't cut it when criticising Irish people that choose to wear a poppy.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

Britain says to wear the poppy and who are to argue
sure didn't the always look after us and treat us well
ohhh wait never mind

yeah because what have the brits ever done for us :rolleyes:

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

in my balls they denied us sovereignty, our culture, killed countless, marched more to there deaths, left us starve and now they get all pissey if someone calls Tone, Emmett, or any irish man who fought england a hero

you could argue that for the vikings as well while you're at it.

There is no "Irish people",for all you know you're great great great great grandparents could be those "English oppressors".


It all comes down to now,If tomorrow there was a 32 county republic declared what difference do you think it would make to the everyday dealing of the average persons life without the whole "we'd be united"?

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Iys got nothing to do with hurt pride or uber nationalism, it is frustration at Irish anger (a lot of which is based on propoganda rather than fact) is directed at the wrong people.

The Poppy is there to commemorate people who served and died in wars. Not those that sent them. To go on and on and on about not wearing a Poppy because of 800 years of oppression (to shorten what it is effectively that people are saying) is completely wrong.

As Makikomi says, hating individuals isn't the right people to be hating. Hating governments is closer to the mark.

How many of those soldiers escorting food around Ireland in the mid 19th century made any money out of it? Wolfe Tone made the point earlier that his Grandfather was in the British Army "for economic reasons". Has it ever occured to you that the English, Scottish and Welsh that joined the British army did it for the same reason?

Do you really think an Indian rebelling really cared that the British Soldier bayoneting him only did so because there was no work in Kerry?

Ffs, first world soldiers managed to come out of the trenches and share chocolate and play football on Christmas day, because they knew the men they were fighting were not their real enemy.

Still, they never experienced hardship like your great great grandparents so I guess they wouldn't understand.

Every single thread you post in regarding Irish/British affairs you say the same thing, (to paraphrase) "bla bla 800 years famine bla bla" irrespective of the topic. So don't try and say your comment was actually about the topic here, you hate Irish people talking about Britain's role here because of their dodgy track record and you are English, nothing more.

What some people in Ireland need to do is to stop feeling this imaginary hurt for their forefathers and move on.

Imaginary? What my and the rest of the Irish peoples forefathers felt was far from imaginary, and we will no more forget our history than the English people will theirs.
I tell you something Fratton, I would never ever be so utterly ignorant as to go over to another country and tell the people there what they should or shouldn't feel about their past, something that I am quite proud to say completely differentiates me from you.

Oh please, stop with all this self pity.

I'm pretty sure the suffering of your forefathers was real enough, but please don't try and tell me you yourself have ever suffered.

You have no more of a clue about what your forefathers went through than I have about what mine went through in the trenches. All this " look what the nasty Brits did to us" is no more than excuse to carry a chip on your shoulder.

laoch na mona

pmcmahon wrote: »

you could argue that for the vikings as well while you're at it.

There is no "Irish people",for all you know you're great great great great grandparents could be those "English oppressors".


It all comes down to now,If tomorrow there was a 32 county republic declared what difference do you think it would make to the everyday dealing of the average persons life without the whole "we'd be united"?

no i'm Irish to the core a true Celt me
but seriously i have nothing against English people one of my best friends is English
this thread is about the poppy and i am against it because it commemorates the British forces in Ireland.
I think English people should wear it with pride but its not for Ireland

MysticalRain

laoch na mona wrote: »

no i'm Irish to the core a true Celt me

Er, the Celts were just another bunch of invaders before the Vikings, Normans and English.

killwill

No (I'm Irish)

I personally wouldn't wear one here in Ireland.
However I might if I was living in England. After all didn't 40,000 Irish die in WWI?
I wonder what reaction there would be walking the streets of London on Remembrance Day with a poppy with green, white and orange petals on it?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

no i'm Irish to the core a true Celt me
but seriously i have nothing against English people one of my best friends is English
this thread is about the poppy and i am against it because it commemorates the British forces in Ireland.
I think English people should wear it with pride but its not for Ireland

Why is it not for Ireland?

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

killwill wrote: »

I wonder what reaction there would be walking the streets of London on Remembrance Day with a poppy with green, white and orange petals on it?

Presumably you would be congratulated by some scientists on cracking & altering GMO code of the Red Poppy )

laoch na mona

MysticalRain wrote: »

Er, the Celts were just another bunch of invaders before the Vikings, Normans and English.

no definite proof they invade but if they did i forgive them since they gave us our myths and our wonderful language

MysticalRain

laoch na mona wrote: »

no definite proof they invade but if they did i forgive them since they gave us our myths and our wonderful language

If they didn't invade. How did they get here? Sounds like revisionist history to me.

laoch na mona

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why is it not for Ireland?

because it celebrates the british soldiers who fought in the rising and the para's
i think honoring the irish war dead of WW1 shouldn't celebrate the war it should pity those who died because of the whims of politicians (irish and english even german)

laoch na mona

MysticalRain wrote: »

If they didn't invade. How did they get here? Sounds like revisionist history to me.

on a boat i guess

ejmaztec

MysticalRain wrote: »

If they didn't invade. How did they get here? Sounds like revisionist history to me.

They crept up in the dark, and when spotted, they told everybody that they been here all the time.

At least the English were invited.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

because it celebrate the british soldiers who fought in the rising and the para's
i think honoring the irish war dead of WW1 shouldn't celebrate the war it should pity those who died because of the whims of politicians (irish and english even german)

Some people admire the British Army though. A lot of Irish people are in the British Army currently.

laoch na mona

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people admire the British Army though. A lot of Irish people are in the British Army currently.

i know but why would we commemorate a foreign army
i don't think any country should

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

no i'm Irish to the core a true Celt me
but seriously i have nothing against English people one of my best friends is English
this thread is about the poppy and i am against it because it commemorates the British forces in Ireland.
I think English people should wear it with pride but its not for Ireland

This is soo wrong on many levels, I honestly can't understand where you get all this misinformation from, so may I suggest that you read post# 731 again, and if possible buy an Irish Independent 'tonight' before its too late, and then take a bus or a train sometime this week to Bray Co Wicklow, and check out all the names of the dead from the War Memorial listed in the Church, & where they were born.

I would be amazed if there is even one Englishman among them!

laoch na mona

LordSutch wrote: »

This is soo wrong on many levels, I honestly can't understand where you get all this misinformation from, so may I suggest that you read post# 731 again, and if possible buy an Irish Independent 'tonight' before its too late, and then take a bus or a train sometime this week to Bray Co Wicklow, and check out all the names of the dead from the War Memorial listed in the Church, & where they were born.

I would be amazed if there is even one Englishman among them!

its not just used to commemorate WW1

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

its not just used to commemorate WW1

You can be Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Canadian, Australian, or Nepalese to wear a poppy to commemorate your War dead, you can be many other nationalities too! And of course you don't have to wear one either, but for those of us who do, please give a little respect to the 50,000 Irish man who never came home, and who still lie in the poppy fields of Flanders.

Thank you & goodnight.

Wolfe Tone

LordSutch wrote: »

You can be Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Canadian, Australian, or Nepalese to wear a poppy to commemorate your War dead, you can be many other nationalities too! And of course you don't have to wear one either, but for those of us who do, please give a little respect to the 50,000 Irish man who never came home, and who still lie in the poppy fields of Flanders.

Thank you & goodnight.

Perhaps you would care to show respect to Irish patriots, good stuff I guess we will be seeing you outside the GPO at Easter.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh please, stop with all this self pity.

I'm pretty sure the suffering of your forefathers was real enough, but please don't try and tell me you yourself have ever suffered.

You have no more of a clue about what your forefathers went through than I have about what mine went through in the trenches. All this " look what the nasty Brits did to us" is no more than excuse to carry a chip on your shoulder.

Talking about history is not self pity.
True I never suffered, but I have also never belittled the suffering of others, that would be beneath me, but it's certainly not beneath you, in fact it seems to be something you seem to enjoy, if not why do you constantly do it around this forum?

All this "look what the nasty Brits did to us" is nothing more than the truth, a truth that hurts you to the point that you hate people mentioning it. You hate this truth so much that you actually get angry and insulting with people who merely mention aspects of it in any context. Very sad, you seem to be loosing the stiff upper lip old chap.

Regarding your not liking Irish people talking about Irish history and the effects colonisation had on us, well I have two words for you, Tough Shit.

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Talking about history is not self pity.
True I never suffered, but I have also never belittled the suffering of others, that would be beneath me, but it's certainly not beneath you, in fact it seems to be something you seem to enjoy, if not why do you constantly do it around this forum?

All this "look what the nasty Brits did to us" is nothing more than the truth, a truth that hurts you to the point that you hate people mentioning it. You hate this truth so much that you actually get angry and insulting with people who merely mention aspects of it in any context. Very sad, you seem to be loosing the stiff upper lip old chap.

Regarding your not liking Irish people talking about Irish history and the effects colonisation had on us, well I have two words for you, Tough Shit.

I enjoy Irish history, the history forum is one if the best on boards.

I hate self pity.

I don't belittle anyone's suffering, but I do mock those that have a poor knowledge of that history and just cherrypick the bits they like to help their own bigotry.

Wolfe Tone

Recently I was talking to a man who had his door smashed in by the Brits at the crack of dawn, he was beaten with rifle butts, taken away in a bloody mess, "interrogated" (tortured) by British soldiers then stuck in a prison camp, just for being "fcuking Irish swine" and a "fenian bastard". (what the soldiers called those they rounded up).

What was his crime? Absolutely nothing. Its a nice line pretending all this was generations ago, outside living memory, it's not.

ejmaztec

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Recently I was talking to a man who had his door smashed in by the Brits at the crack of dawn, he was beaten with rifle butts, taken away in a bloody mess, "interrogated" (tortured) by British soldiers then stuck in a prison camp, just for being "fcuking Irish swine" and a "fenian bastard". (what the soldiers called those they rounded up).

What was his crime? Absolutely nothing. Its a nice line pretending all this was generations ago, outside living memory, it's not.

What was he supposed to have done?

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Recently I was talking to a man who had his door smashed in by the Brits at the crack of dawn, he was beaten with rifle butts, taken away in a bloody mess, "interrogated" (tortured) by British soldiers then stuck in a prison camp, just for being "fcuking Irish swine" and a "fenian bastard". (what the soldiers called those they rounded up).

What was his crime? Absolutely nothing. Its a nice line pretending all this was generations ago, outside living memory, it's not.

That's terrible.

I was watching a documentary about young men, who joined the army and were sent, as part of a UN mission to Afghanistan. They had all been involved in separate IED incidents and lost limbs.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

The Easter Lily is used to remember the PIRA too. Not a very good argument by Wolfe Tone in all honesty.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

What was he supposed to have done?

Wolfe still thinks Colin Duffy is being victimised.

Wolfe Tone

ejmaztec wrote: »

What was he supposed to have done?

He was interned, I think they thought he was someone else, they beat the sh!te out of him when he told them his name, they thought he was lying.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I enjoy Irish history, the history forum is one if the best on boards.

I hate self pity.

I don't belittle anyone's suffering, but I do mock those that have a poor knowledge of that history and just cherrypick the bits they like to help their own bigotry.

Your many comments regarding the famine on this forum say otherwise.

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Your many comments regarding the famine on this forum say otherwise.

No they don't, you just want them to so you can be shocked and outraged that a nasty Brit could say such things.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's terrible.

I was watching a documentary about young men, who joined the army and were sent, as part of a UN mission to Afghanistan. They had all been involved in separate IED incidents and lost limbs.

At least they had a choice in the matter.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Wolfe still thinks Colin Duffy is being victimised.

I can't say I will miss sh!te like this when I close my account.

As I've said before I feel that anyone being held as a result of having their license revoked on the word of the British secretary of state is suffering what is in effect internment. "I think he might be dodge, lock him up".

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

At least they had a choice in the matter.



I can't say I will miss sh!te like this when I close my account.

As I've said before I feel that anyone being held as a result of having their license revoked on the word of the British secretary of state is suffering what is in effect internment. "I think he might be dodge, lock him up".

the fact he is in court would suggest there is more than a bit of suspicion.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the fact he is in court would suggest there is more than a bit of suspicion.

The fact he is alive and not dead is amazing. If only the security of the compound was a bit better or they had intelligence on the attack.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No they don't, you just want them to so you can be shocked and outraged that a nasty Brit could say such things.

Do you really want me to quote some of the things you have said on that topic?
But I do agree with your description of yourself, very sporting indeed of you to admit that.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the fact he is in court would suggest there is more than a bit of suspicion.

Suspicion = guilt?

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Do you really want me to quote some of the things you have said on that topic?
But I do agree with your description of yourself, very sporting indeed of you to admit that.

Yes please, do.

Actually, this thread is off topic enough, don't bother.

Wolfe Tone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes please, do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-_Ql0fN0bA

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes please, do.

Then it shall be done, it's late now but check back here in the morning, or I might start a "an Englishmans view of the famine" thread somewhere.

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Then it shall be done, it's late now but check back here in the morning, or I might start a "an Englishmans view of the famine" thread somewhere.

yes please, cant wait. :rolleyes:

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes please, cant wait. :rolleyes:

In this thread you place fault on people reacting to the famine in a way people will react in any similar situation (just look into the black market in Britain during WWII). Naturally ignoring who the majority of rich farmers and merchants were, compared to the majority of the population.

In Ireland there is selective amnesia, everyone just wants to blame the British government, without taking a look at the actions of some Irish people. It is referred to as famine shame.

In this thread you state you believe calling The Famine "The famine" is wrong, even though people were dying of starvation or diseases brought on by hunger and overcrowding due to people jammed together in workhouses to try and get food.

I've always thought calling it The famine was wrong. It was a potato famine as all other crops were unaffected, unlike the famine 100 years earlier.

Here you claim part of the blame was with the people for having too many children, and even though the reason people relied on the potato crop was because of government policies and land distribution the people were at fault for relying on the potato. You mention "land factors" as if this was some minor part instead of the central issue it was.

The Irish famine was pretty unique and I don't think the British can be fully to blame for that. The way the British government dealt with it was shocking, but Ireland's massive population explosion and over dependance of the potato were also factors. (Yes I know there were land factors that contributed to the potato dependance as well)

Blaming people for reacting to a situation that was not their fault, stating that mass starvation and death by disease caused by starvation shouldn't be called the famine and blaming people for their own overpopulation when there was actually enough food to feed that population.
These are all examples of your attitude to the horrors of mid 19th century Ireland.

super_furry

No (I'm Irish)

So we're back to the famine again then? Hooray!

ejmaztec

super_furry wrote: »

So we're back to the famine again then? Hooray!

Yes, the thread's climbed even further up the Vicious Scale now

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Then it shall be done, it's late now but check back here in the morning, or I might start a "an Englishmans view of the famine" thread somewhere.

try the scotsmans view of the famine,you know they had one ,dident you ?somehow i dident think so

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

In this thread you place fault on people reacting to the famine in a way people will react in any similar situation (just look into the black market in Britain during WWII). Naturally ignoring who the majority of rich farmers and merchants were, compared to the majority of the population.


In this thread you state you believe calling The Famine "The famine" is wrong, even though people were dying of starvation or diseases brought on by hunger and overcrowding due to people jammed together in workhouses to try and get food.


Here you claim part of the blame was with the people for having too many children, and even though the reason people relied on the potato crop was because of government policies and land distribution the people were at fault for relying on the potato. You mention "land factors" as if this was some minor part instead of the central issue it was.


Blaming people for reacting to a situation that was not their fault, stating that mass starvation and death by disease caused by starvation shouldn't be called the famine and blaming people for their own overpopulation when there was actually enough food to feed that population.
These are all examples of your attitude to the horrors of mid 19th century Ireland.

You really really really need a girlfriend.

There is nothing I have written in any of those posts that you won't find on the UCC Multitext history site.

But I suppose that Cork university are nasty west Brits.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really really really need a girlfriend.

Don't suppose you'd consider leaning off the personal attacks everytime someone posts something you disagree with ?