British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

bobbysands81

LordSutch wrote: »

You can be Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Canadian, Australian, or Nepalese to wear a poppy to commemorate your War dead, you can be many other nationalities too! And of course you don't have to wear one either, but for those of us who do, please give a little respect to the 50,000 Irish man who never came home, and who still lie in the poppy fields of Flanders.

Thank you & goodnight.

You actually talk a lot of sense on this issue Lord Sutch and it's obvious that you have an awful lot of respect for the folk that died in WW1 and WW2.

Do you conceed however that the poppy is not just a symbol for these men and women but is also a symbol to commemorate and celebrate the soldiers and the institution who murdered many an innocent Irish person and child such as:



Julie Livingstone 14 years old, Carrigart Avenue, Lenadoon, west Belfast, was struck on the head by a plastic bullet at Stewartstown Road on 12 May 1981.

Daniel Barrett 15 years, Havana Court, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead sitting on the garden wall of his home on 9 July 1981, by members of the British army's Welsh Guards.

Thomas ‘Kidso’ Reilly was shot in the back by British Army Paratrooper private Ian Thain. (Kidso worked for Bananarama the band at the time and they were very vocal about his killing, his brother was also in Stiff Little Fingers).

Manus Deery 15 years old, Limewood Street, Derry City, shot dead 20 May 1972 by members of the British Army firing from the city walls.

Majella O’Hare 12 years old, Rathview Gardens, Whitecross, Co. Armagh, shot near her home on 14 August 1976, by members of joint British army patrol of Royal Marine Commando and Parachute Regiment.

Sean O'Riardon 13 years old, Oramore Street, Clonard, Falls Road, West Belfast, shot dead in the Clonard area on 23 March 1972, by members of the British Army's Gloucester Regiment.

Kevin Heatley 13 years old, Second Avenue, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, shot dead on 28 February 1973, by members of the British Army’s Royal Hampshire Regiment.

Frank Rowntree 11 years old, Lower Clonard Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot with a (doctored) rubber bullet on 20 April 1972, at the Divis Flats, by members of the British Army’s Royal Anglian Regiment.

Carol Ann Kelly 12 years old, Twinbrook, west Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the British Army’s Royal Fusiliers, on 19 May 1981.



These are just some of the reasons why I personally would never commemorate the institution that is the British Army... but I do recognise the need and right for people to recognise their own family members who fought and died in wars such as WW1 and WW2.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Don't suppose you'd consider leaning off the personal attacks everytime someone posts something you disagree with ?

Someone goes to the effort to trawl through my posting history in order that he can make a personal attack on me, and you accuse me of making a personal attack?

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really really really need a girlfriend.

There is nothing I have written in any of those posts that you won't find on the UCC Multitext history site.

But I suppose that Cork university are nasty west Brits.

I need a girlfriend because I disagree with you hmmm...showing yourself up again old bean.

You do love cherry picking from that site, but you ignore bits like this (from a link you posted).

This caused a crisis that the Government failed, in general, to cope with. The near complete failure of the potato crop made disaster on an unprecedented scale inevitable unless other food could be provided. As Cormac Ó Gráda writes:

The Irish famine relief effort was constrained less by poverty than by ideology and public opinion. Too much was expected of the Irish themselves, including Irish landlords. Too much was blamed on their dishonesty and laziness. Too much time was lost on public works as the main vehicle of relief. By the time food was reaching the starving through the soup kitchens, they were already vulnerable to infectious diseases, against which the medical science of the day was virtually helpless. Too much was made of the antisocial behavior inevitable in such crisis conditions. Too many people in high places believed that this was a time when, as the Times put it, “something like harshness is the greatest humanity”. … Most important, public spending on relief went nowhere near the cost of plugging the gap left by the failure of the potato. … a shortfall of about £50 million in money. … exchequer spending on famine relief between 1846 and 1852 totaled less than £10 million.

Well I've made my point, so no more dragging off topic.
As the song says "we'll meet again" so till next time Fred, bye.

Edit:

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Someone goes to the effort to trawl through my posting history in order that he can make a personal attack on me,

I did ask you and you said "yes please do". No complaining now.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You actually talk a lot of sense on this issue Lord Sutch and it's obvious that you have an awful lot of respect for the folk that died in WW1 and WW2.

Do you conceed however that the poppy is not just a symbol for these men and women but is also a symbol to commemorate and celebrate the soldiers and the institution who murdered many an innocent Irish person and child such as: . . . . . . .

I am wearing the Poppy to commemorate my grandfather + the other 50,000 other Irish men who never came home. Like any symbol there are negative aspects connected too, take the easter Lily for example, it is another symbol that I respect, but of course there is also a catalogue of negativity connected to it. I won't bother listing them here, but if somebody goes to the bother of weaing an easter Lily then they feel strongly enough about the symbol, possibly because a grandfather or uncle was one of the 300 or so people who died that week in 1916, & that's fine by me.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You actually talk a lot of sense on this issue Lord Sutch and it's obvious that you have an awful lot of respect for the folk that died in WW1 and WW2.

Do you conceed however that the poppy is not just a symbol for these men and women but is also a symbol to commemorate and celebrate the soldiers and the institution who murdered many an innocent Irish person and child such as:



Julie Livingstone 14 years old, Carrigart Avenue, Lenadoon, west Belfast, was struck on the head by a plastic bullet at Stewartstown Road on 12 May 1981.

Daniel Barrett 15 years, Havana Court, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead sitting on the garden wall of his home on 9 July 1981, by members of the British army's Welsh Guards.

Thomas ‘Kidso’ Reilly was shot in the back by British Army Paratrooper private Ian Thain. (Kidso worked for Bananarama the band at the time and they were very vocal about his killing, his brother was also in Stiff Little Fingers).

Manus Deery 15 years old, Limewood Street, Derry City, shot dead 20 May 1972 by members of the British Army firing from the city walls.

Majella O’Hare 12 years old, Rathview Gardens, Whitecross, Co. Armagh, shot near her home on 14 August 1976, by members of joint British army patrol of Royal Marine Commando and Parachute Regiment.

Sean O'Riardon 13 years old, Oramore Street, Clonard, Falls Road, West Belfast, shot dead in the Clonard area on 23 March 1972, by members of the British Army's Gloucester Regiment.

Kevin Heatley 13 years old, Second Avenue, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, shot dead on 28 February 1973, by members of the British Army’s Royal Hampshire Regiment.

Frank Rowntree 11 years old, Lower Clonard Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot with a (doctored) rubber bullet on 20 April 1972, at the Divis Flats, by members of the British Army’s Royal Anglian Regiment.

Carol Ann Kelly 12 years old, Twinbrook, west Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the British Army’s Royal Fusiliers, on 19 May 1981.



These are just some of the reasons why I personally would never commemorate the institution that is the British Army... but I do recognise the need and right for people to recognise their own family members who fought and died in wars such as WW1 and WW2.

quite ironic coming from a republican,let just name GAA stadiums,cup trophys after bombers and murderers,dont need a poppy then to remember the dead,

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Someone goes to the effort to trawl through my posting history in order that he can make a personal attack on me, and you accuse me of making a personal attack?

That person quoted back things to you which you had said, after you specifically challenged them to do just that.

The post you responded to did not engage in ad hominem attacks however mild, unlike your own.

bobbysands81

LordSutch wrote: »

I am wearing the Poppy to commemorate my grandfather + the other 50,000 other Irish men who never came home. Like any symbol there are negative aspects connected too, take

But the symbol does not just commemorate your grandfather, it commerorates people who have murdered many innocents in other wars, if it was just about WW1 and WW2 then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I've had relatives killed in these wars too but for reasons stated above I won't wear a poppy as (to me) that doesn't commemorate just them.

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

quite ironic coming from a republican,let just name GAA stadiums,cup trophys after bombers and murderers,dont need a poppy then to remember the dead,

So that's your response to reading a list of children that have been murdered in Ireland?

Disgusting.

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So that's your response to reading a list of children that have been murdered in Ireland?

Disgusting.

Maybe he feels the list is a bit one sided?

Morlar

old hippy wrote: »

Maybe he feels the list is a bit one sided?

In the context of a thread about the wearing of a Royal British Legion poppy to commemorate the British Army ?

gurramok

old hippy wrote: »

Maybe he feels the list is a bit one sided?

The list is only a partial list of people murdered by British soldiers up north where no justice was brought against the soldiers. Buying a poppy funds the welfare of those soldiers and thats the strongest point against the poppy.

Why should people fund child murderers? I certainly don't and will not if they are British Army or Republican or Loyalist.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So that's your response to reading a list of children that have been murdered in Ireland?

Disgusting.

1800 people women children even babies murdered by republican terrorists ,to many to put the names on this thread,[most of them irish] so who has the moral ground,dont go there

old hippy

Morlar wrote: »

In the context of a thread about the wearing of a Royal British Legion poppy to commemorate the British Army ?

It's to commemorate those who died, rather than the army itself.

Dyr

getz wrote: »

1800 people women children even babies murdered by republican terrorists ,to many to put the names on this thread,[most of them irish] so who has the moral ground,dont go there

at least the shinners don't bulls**t anyone about the easter lilly being worn to commemorate everyone who died in the troubles

old hippy

gurramok wrote: »

The list is only a partial list of people murdered by British soldiers up north where no justice was brought against the soldiers. Buying a poppy funds the welfare of those soldiers and thats the strongest point against the poppy.

Why should people fund child murderers? I certainly don't and will not if they are British Army or Republican or Loyalist.

Fair enough. I admire your priniciples. However, I doubt every gnarled veteran is a child murderer.

Aside from that, here's where the money goes (and no, I don't subscribe)

http://www.poppy.org.uk/make-a-difference/where-your-money-goes

gurramok

old hippy wrote: »

Fair enough. I admire your priniciples. However, I doubt every gnarled veteran is a child murderer.

Aside from that, here's where the money goes (and no, I don't subscribe)

http://www.poppy.org.uk/make-a-difference/where-your-money-goes

They(the child murderers) get the money from the poppy sales, there is no mechanism in place to stop those former soldiers receiving the money. They are classed as the good guys alongside soldiers who did not murder unarmed civilians.

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

Maybe he feels the list is a bit one sided?

In the same way that a poppy is "a bit one sided" in that it only commemorates the British Army? Bet you don't mention that though...

old hippy

gurramok wrote: »

They(the child murderers) get the money from the poppy sales, there is no mechanism in place to stop those former soldiers receiving the money. They are classed as the good guys alongside soldiers who did not murder unarmed civilians.

Such is life. Always a few rotten apples amongst the good uns.

Ultimately, makes no difference to me. I have no affiliations to either poppyists or lillians, at the end of the day. There's good and bad always contained within.

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

1800 people women children even babies murdered by republican terrorists ,to many to put the names on this thread,[most of them irish] so who has the moral ground,dont go there

God forbid the natives have the cheek to fight back when they're invaded eh?



See the difference here is that if you put up a list of children murdered by Republicans I'd state what a disgusting horrible thing it is that they were murdered.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

old hippy wrote: »

Fair enough. I admire your priniciples. However, I doubt every gnarled veteran is a child murderer.

Aside from that, here's where the money goes (and no, I don't subscribe)

http://www.poppy.org.uk/make-a-difference/where-your-money-goes

its all been posted before,none of the usual crowd are interested about things being right or wrong,all they are posting for is to put their anti british views about,its getting harder for them as they are getting more and more isolated day by day,because there is no longer any reason for it,

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

God forbid the natives have the cheek to fight back when they're invaded eh?

Did the Irish fight back when the vikings came? Or when the Celts came?

How long must a grudge be held?

old hippy

getz wrote: »

its all been posted before,none of the usual crowd are interested about things being right or wrong,all they are posting for is to put their anti british views about,its getting harder for them as they are getting more and more isolated day by day,because there is no longer any reason for it,

Mostly no reason for it, yes. I doubt things will ever be rosy between these islands within my lifetime. We have squandered and soured relations (both "sides") by refusing to put the past behind us.

But I care less and less, these days.

Necron

I believe its up to the person themselves, but personally I would be against it.

gurramok

getz wrote: »

its all been posted before,none of the usual crowd are interested about things being right or wrong,all they are posting for is to put their anti british views about,its getting harder for them as they are getting more and more isolated day by day,because there is no longer any reason for it,

All I see from your posts is that its right to donate money to child murderers and wrong to object to this funding and at the same time its anti-British to object to such funding. Hilarious stuff.

old hippy

gurramok wrote: »

All I see from your posts is that its right to donate money to child murderers and wrong to object to this funding and at the same time its anti-British to object to such funding. Hilarious stuff.

It is vaguely amusing, watching your neighbours pointing at each other over the fence carrying on an endless feud. I think it sums up the piteous nature of humanity and where we're all heading...

Morlar

old hippy wrote: »

It is vaguely amusing, watching your neighbours pointing at each other over the fence carrying on an endless feud. I think it sums up the piteous nature of humanity and where we're all heading...

I think that attitude says more about you than it does about the 'nature of humanity' in general.

old hippy wrote: »

Did the Irish fight back when the vikings came? Or when the Celts came?

How long must a grudge be held?

Except no one is talking about this issue in terms of 'Holding a Grudge' except you.

The reason for that is plain - it is because you are firmly on one side of the subject trying to undermine the other side of the discussion.

Rather than engage in an open manner on this issue.

This topic has nothing to do with 'holding a grudge'.

The facts of it are simple, it is astonishing that those on the pro-Royal British Legion Poppy refuse to acknowledge the sensitivities on this issue with regard to Irish people being expected to commemorate an army which has an atrocious record in occupation in this country throughout our history right up to very recent times.

No other european nation that I can think of would ever be expected to commemorate a foreign army of occupation which has such an vicious record of atrocities to it's name.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

God forbid the natives have the cheek to fight back when they're invaded eh?



See the difference here is that if you put up a list of children murdered by Republicans I'd state what a disgusting horrible thing it is that they were murdered.

invaded, another living in the 17 century,havent you ever thought,that if the republican terrorists had not been shooting/bombing and inciting riots,that most of those poor children would still be with us,just what was the republican excuse to kill

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really really really need a girlfriend.

There is nothing I have written in any of those posts that you won't find on the UCC Multitext history site.

But I suppose that Cork university are nasty west Brits.

You are correct the famine was not a famine it was genocide. People, who were forced through starvation to eat grass, some resorted to cannibalism. You are clearly a brit alright no escaping that ill-informed under educated arrogance.
Several documentaries have been made by RTE on this topic and historians from UCC like Joe Lee and his colleagues, gave a more accurate and realistic account of the causes and effects of the famine, and are at odds with the causes and affects you suggest.

And to think the British get morally superior when discussing what the Germans did in WWII.

old hippy

Morlar wrote: »

I think that attitude says more about you than it does about the 'nature of humanity' in general.



Except no one is talking about this issue in terms of 'Holding a Grudge' except you.

The reason for that is plain - it is because you are firmly on one side of the subject trying to undermine the other side of the discussion.

Rather than engage in an open manner on this issue.

This topic has nothing to do with 'holding a grudge'.

The facts of it are simple, it is astonishing that those on the pro-Royal British Legion Poppy refuse to acknowledge the sensitivities on this issue with regard to Irish people being expected to commemorate an army which has an atrocious record in occupation in this country throughout our history right up to very recent times.

No other european nation that I can think of would ever be expected to commemorate a foreign army of occupation which has such an vicious record of atrocities to it's name.

Now, now, a chara. Don't be putting words into my mouth. I'm not pro anything. That kind of entrenched thinking is what keeps us back from progress towards a better world.

We were occupied, that is true. The occupation is long, long gone and the times have changed.

I have been remarkably open - I don't do either the lillies or the poppies, both are divisive - having said that; I doubt many of the occupiers are still alive to benefit from the sales of either maligned flower.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

old hippy wrote: »

Did the Irish fight back when the vikings came? Or when the Celts came?

How long must a grudge be held?

I would love for a Republican to tell me what a native Irish person is? Must be a religious thing.

old hippy

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would love for a Republican to tell me what a native Irish person is? Must be a religious thing.

Pre-christian neolithic. Not many of 'em about.

People start banging on about native or aboriginal Irish, not dissimilar from what Nick Griffin spouts here in London :rolleyes:

But let's not derail, eh?

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

But the symbol does not just commemorate your grandfather, it commerorates people who have murdered many innocents in other wars, if it was just about WW1 and WW2 then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Ah come now, with a name like bobby sands you cannot be serious.

I was very accommodating in post#855, and I even went as far as to accept those who were an Easter Lily, but you still persist . . . .

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

All I see from your posts is that its right to donate money to child murderers and wrong to object to this funding and at the same time its anti-British to object to such funding. Hilarious stuff.

i will write this slowly so you can understand ,all charity money from the sale of poppies that are sold in ireland, stays in ireland , and is for the irish dead and their families,

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

old hippy wrote: »

Pre-christian neolithic. Not many of 'em about.

People start banging on about native or aboriginal Irish, not dissimilar from what Nick Griffin spouts here in London :rolleyes:

But let's not derail, eh?

Ok. So who are the native Irish people then? I really don't get it. It is bizarre.

gurramok

KeithAFC wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

I noticed from the poll KeithAFC is British and LordSutch is Irish but I had thought both of ye are Irish Unionists?

gurramok

getz wrote: »

i will write this slowly so you can understand ,all charity money from the sale of poppies that are sold in ireland, stays in ireland , and is for the irish dead and their families,

Obviously you did not read the posts, the sales in Ireland go to British soldiers who served anywhere, that is including NI.

ejmaztec

gurramok wrote: »

I noticed from the poll KeithAFC is British and LordSutch is Irish but I had thought both of ye are Irish Unionists?

Skulduggery.

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

Did the Irish fight back when the vikings came? Or when the Celts came?

How long must a grudge be held?

Sorry buddy but the Vikings or the Celts are not still in control of part of this island.

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

if the republican terrorists had not been shooting/bombing and inciting riots,that most of those poor children would still be with us,just what was the republican excuse to kill

Take that argument to it's logical conclusion...

If the Brits didn't invade foreign countries where their not wanted then nobody would have had to fight back.

You've defeated your own argument there!

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

We were occupied, that is true. The occupation is long, long gone and the times have changed.

May I suggest you look at a map? The occupation of Ireland is still ongoing.

bobbysands81

LordSutch wrote: »

Ah come now, with a name like bobby sands you cannot be serious.

I was very accommodating in post#855, and I even went as far as to accept those who were an Easter Lily, but you still persist . . . .

Persist in what?

In stating that a poppy also commemorates murdering psychopaths that were in the British Army? That's a given mate, just look at the list of child murderers I provided earlier.

It's up to you if you want to wear a symbol that commemorates these people, as well as commemorating your grandfather, but forgive me if I don't.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Obviously you did not read the posts, the sales in Ireland go to British soldiers who served anywhere, that is including NI.

no its you that is not reading their website,www.republic-of-ireland.britishlegion.org.uk quote in ireland in 2009 they had over 700 calls for assistance and they distributed over 275,000 euro to those in need,the poppy appeal raised 230.000 euro,further funds were sourced elsewhere,.....so all the money raised by selling the poppy in ireland goes to people in ireland

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

You are correct the famine was not a famine it was genocide. People, who were forced through starvation to eat grass, some resorted to cannibalism. You are clearly a brit alright no escaping that ill-informed under educated arrogance.
Several documentaries have been made by RTE on this topic and historians from UCC like Joe Lee and his colleagues, gave a more accurate and realistic account of the causes and effects of the famine, and are at odds with the causes and affects you suggest.

And to think the British get morally superior when discussing what the Germans did in WWII.

Thankyou, a perfect example of the shock horror, those nasty Brits did bad things to my great great great great grandparents....I think.

Unless of course they were farmers from Tipperary who recruited their own militia to protect their crops whilst exporting them, or merchants from Cork who made a fortune by buying grain cheap and selling it on to desperate people for a fortune.

No, it wasn't genocide by any stretch of the imagination.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Persist in what?

In stating that a poppy also commemorates murdering psychopaths that were in the British Army? That's a given mate, just look at the list of child murderers I provided earlier.

It's up to you if you want to wear a symbol that commemorates these people, as well as commemorating your grandfather, but forgive me if I don't.

But you have named yourself after a member of an organisation that were child killers. What gives you the right to get on your high horse?

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But you have named yourself after a member of an organisation that were child killers. What gives you the right to get on your high horse?

By that standard you are posting in a thread about commemorating an organisation which were child killers.

Necron

I always wonder why things like this are lumped in as one particular. Surely it should be an andividuals decision, rather than a group enforcement?

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Thankyou, a perfect example of the shock horror, those nasty Brits did bad things to my great great great great grandparents....I think.

Unless of course they were farmers from Tipperary who recruited their own militia to protect their crops whilst exporting them, or merchants from Cork who made a fortune by buying grain cheap and selling it on to desperate people for a fortune.

No, it wasn't genocide by any stretch of the imagination.

You clearly no nothing about the famine other than tiny information trying to pass it off as fact. Get yourself a dictionary and look up the word genocide. Btw the historians in UCC believe it was genocide.

gurramok

getz wrote: »

no its you that is not reading their website,www.republic-of-ireland.britishlegion.org.uk quote in ireland in 2009 they had over 700 calls for assistance and they distributed over 275,000 euro to those in need,the poppy appeal raised 230.000 euro,further funds were sourced elsewhere,.....so all the money raised by selling the poppy in ireland goes to people in ireland

You really are not telling the truth, don't be shy. I'll help you with a quote from the same website:

RBL wrote:

There are many ways people can help and become involved, and it is essential to our work for the ex-Service community. We assist Veterans and their dependants and widows as well as those who are still serving. Anyone who has at least 7 days service and who is currently experiencing difficulties, financial or otherwise, is eligible for our assistance.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Take that argument to it's logical conclusion...

If the Brits didn't invade foreign countries where their not wanted then nobody would have had to fight back.

You've defeated your own argument there!

if you think so,you have not read irish history ,the irish were the first to invade britain,one tribe invaded scotland another tribe in the north west of england[cumbria] a tribe took over wales and the west country,a quote from a sage of the day,said the irish turned britian into estates and lived as much there as in ireland.if the people in northern ireland did not want to be part of the union they would leave,they have a choice,that is something that you as a republican do not want them to have want them to have,

Wolfe Tone

Can someone tell me if any of the cash goes to ex UDR people?