British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

You really are not telling the truth, don't be shy. I'll help you with a quote from the same website:

what is wrong in that ?are you trying to say any serving irish/british soldier is a terrorist ?.if so you should tell the irish goverment that terrorists are training their army,or that why did they vote in the UN to send the british[terrorists] to trouble spots around the world,and why you are at it tell the irish president he has not to go to the service that is held for all the irishmen who died in the great war. i know the answer you would get from the irish goverment,

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Can someone tell me if any of the cash goes to ex UDR people?

maybe it should go to help the families of citizens in the republic who were murdered by the republican movement,

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

You clearly no nothing about the famine other than tiny information trying to pass it off as fact. Get yourself a dictionary and look up the word genocide. Btw the historians in UCC believe it was genocide.

No, they don't.

Please, stop, you know nothing of history.

gurramok

getz wrote: »

what is wrong in that ?are you trying to say any serving irish/british soldier is a terrorist ?.if so you should tell the irish goverment that terrorists are training their army,or that why did they vote in the UN to send the british[terrorists] to trouble spots around the world,and why you are at it tell the irish president he has not to go to the service that is held for all the irishmen who died in the great war. i know the answer you would get from the irish goverment,

Are you lost?!

British soldiers serve the British govt, not the Irish govt. British soldiers who murdered kids up north are terrorists, that is not every single British soldier.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But you have named yourself after a member of an organisation that were child killers. What gives you the right to get on your high horse?

Britain has no right invading foreign coutries as they have done, as they are currently doing, and no doubt as they in the future will.

The people in the countries that they invaded will always have the right to meet their force with force.

Stop blaming the symptom and start blaming the disease.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Are you lost?!

British soldiers serve the British govt, not the Irish govt. British soldiers who murdered kids up north are terrorists, that is not every single British soldier.

thats like saying all republican are terrorists and murderers.and they serve no master,

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Britain has no right invading foreign coutries as they have done, as they are currently doing, and no doubt as they in the future will.

The people in the countries that they invaded will always have the right to meet their force with force.

Stop blaming the symptom and start blaming the disease.

Yes and you had your independence and a Republic. It has been settled.

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

if you think so,you have not read irish history ,the irish were the first to invade britain,one tribe invaded scotland another tribe in the north west of england[cumbria] a tribe took over wales and the west country,a quote from a sage of the day,said the irish turned britian into estates and lived as much there as in ireland.if the people in northern ireland did not want to be part of the union they would leave,they have a choice,that is something that you as a republican do not want them to have want them to have,

You really need to look up the term "false analogy".

bobbysands81

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes and you had your independence and a Republic. It has been settled.

Nope, Ireland does not have her independence.

When we do I hope it's a new shared country which respects the rights of unionists like yourself and is constituted in such a way that you play a full part in it.

Wolfe Tone

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Nope, Ireland does not have her independence.

When we do I hope it's a new shared country which respects the rights of unionists like yourself and is constituted in such a way that you play a full part in it.

Ah, he has been fishing for a response for AGES and everyone was ignoring him...

It was a good run

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Nope, Ireland does not have her independence.

When we do I hope it's a new shared country which respects the rights of unionists like yourself and is constituted in such a way that you play a full part in it.

The island is not one country. It is not all a Republic. The majority of people on the island have accepted that and voted for partition.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You really need to look up the term "false analogy".

check out, living in a time warp

stewie01

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Britain has no right invading foreign coutries as they have done, as they are currently doing, and no doubt as they in the future will.

The people in the countries that they invaded will always have the right to meet their force with force.

Stop blaming the symptom and start blaming the disease.

correct.

Wolfe Tone

getz wrote: »

maybe it should go to help the families of citizens in the republic who were murdered by the republican movement,

Thats not answering my question, does the money go to ex members of the disgraced UDR?

Morlar

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats not answering my question, does the money go to ex members of the disgraced UDR?

I believe it would. Can't say for certain.

sensibleken

Can't we all just get along?

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Britain has no right invading foreign coutries as they have done, as they are currently doing, and no doubt as they in the future will.

The people in the countries that they invaded will always have the right to meet their force with force.

Stop blaming the symptom and start blaming the disease.

So you disagree with the war in Afghanistan? Would you support a terrorist attack on Ireland, as an invading country?

Are you claiming that the murders of children by the IRA were justified under the banner of 800 years?

A straight answer would be most welcome.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

I believe it would. Can't say for certain.

I think it would. They were a territorial regiment and would most likely fall under the RBL's remit.

I'm not sure if money collected in the RoI would though.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ah, he has been fishing for a response for AGES and everyone was ignoring him...

It was a good run

I don't think you should accuse people of fishing Wolfe Tone. If you disagree, fine but we can all agree to disagree without that.

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

check out, living in a time warp

Says the man posting wanting us all to commemorate the past!!!

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think it would. They were a territorial regiment and would most likely fall under the RBL's remit.

I'm not sure if money collected in the RoI would though.

Fred - straightforward question - Can you honestly not see any issue in Irish people being expected to donate to a cause that would benefit former members of the UDR ?

Just yes or no.

Wolfe Tone

Morlar wrote: »

I believe it would. Can't say for certain.

Don't see why it wouldn't, it was a part of the British army.

For those unfamiliar this regiment was a replacement for the B specials and was made up almost entirely of unionists. It was heavily sectarian and engaged in collusion. Weapons often went "missing" and turned up in the hands of loyalists.

These lads were complete scum, worse then the RUC and other British regiments.

Members of the UDR were recruited from within unionist communities in the 6 counties.

http://omg.wthax.org/23lcl7q_1.jpg

There are members of the UDR posing with a Drumcree Orange Order flag. Gives an insight into what they were like.

I wouldn't want my money going to them, or any other member of the British army who caused so much anguish in Ireland.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

Fred - straightforward question - Can you honestly not see any issue in Irish people being expected to donate to a cause that would benefit former members of the UDR ?

Just yes or no.

Everyone donates for different reasons. Can people not just accept that?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you disagree with the war in Afghanistan? Would you support a terrorist attack on Ireland, as an invading country?

Are you claiming that the murders of children by the IRA were justified under the banner of 800 years?

A straight answer would be most welcome.

1. No.

However Ireland has seen many terrorist attacks on it supported and aided by Britain. Britain has been responsible for many terrorist attacks in Ireland. In fact an arm of Britains Government even admitted that Britain had partaken in such attacks (see a report from Nuala O'Loan from a few years back). In fact, Britain fits into America's definition of a terrorist state.

2. No.

I'm not the person arguing in favour of commemorating child killers by wearing the poppy.

Clear enough?

Morlar

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Don't see why it wouldn't, it was a part of the British army.

For those unfamiliar this regiment was a replacement for the B specials and was made up almost entirely of unionists. It was heavily sectarian and engaged in collusion. Weapons often went "missing" and turned up in the hands of loyalists.

These lads were complete scum, worse then the RUC and other British regiments.

Members of the UDR were recruited from within unionist communities in the 6 counties.

http://omg.wthax.org/23lcl7q_1.jpg

There are members of the UDR posing with a Drumcree Orange Order flag. Gives an insight into what they were like.

I wouldn't want my money going to them, or any other member of the British army who caused so much anguish in Ireland.

They were also if I recall correctly 97% Protestant. Much like the B-Specials who they effectively replaced.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats not answering my question, does the money go to ex members of the disgraced UDR?

to be honest i would expect that money collected in nothern ireland would go to all ex servicemen women and their families,in the north,if the UDR was a legal british reg then yes, but as we have already established all money collected in the republic is used in the republic and the legion has to bring in money from elsewhere,just to help those who are in need in ireland, mind you i have also not liked the idea of UK money ,being used to build community centers in republican areas in the north to promote sectarian views .but i have no control of that

Morlar

getz wrote: »

mind you i have also not liked the idea of UK money ,being used to build community centers in republican areas in the north to promote sectarian views .but i have no control of that

Name one.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, they don't.

Please, stop, you know nothing of history.

I no nothing of history laughable if you only knew. Evidently far more knowledgeable than you on this subject. Yes they do refer to it as genocide, so if it’s not genocide and it’s not a famine what do you call people starving to death because of government policy?

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

I no nothing of history laughable if you only knew. Evidently far more knowledgeable than you on this subject. Yes they do refer to it as genocide, so if it’s not genocide and it’s not a famine what do you call people starving to death because of government policy?

It wasn't government policy to starve people to death.

It wasn't genocide. If you read the thread where I said I wasn't comfortable with calling it a famine you will see why. In fact, just read that whole thread, you might, no you will, learn something.

Genocide ffs, I see why decent Irish historians are embarrassed by the way history is taught in this country.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Fred - straightforward question - Can you honestly not see any issue in Irish people being expected to donate to a cause that would benefit former members of the UDR ?

Just yes or no.

Of course I do, that is why I have said I don't EXPECT Irish people to wear the poppy.

By the way, I wrote that slowly, maybe the last three times I spelled that out I did it too quickly, hopefully it will sink home this time.

Now, do you understand why I get pissed off at pathetic "Patriots" who nothing about history, but trot out the same old tired 800 years type rhetoric whenever the word Britain is mentioned?

Wolfe Tone

I see, if you don't agree with Freds version of history you know nothing.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

1. No.

However Ireland has seen many terrorist attacks on it supported and aided by Britain. Britain has been responsible for many terrorist attacks in Ireland. In fact an arm of Britains Government even admitted that Britain had partaken in such attacks (see a report from Nuala O'Loan from a few years back). In fact, Britain fits into America's definition of a terrorist state.

2. No.

I'm not the person arguing in favour of commemorating child killers by wearing the poppy.

Clear enough?

So if you support the war in Afghanistan, who do you think should be fighting it, are you volunteering?

If you accept that the war in Afghanistan is a valid war, where is this imaginary country that Britain is invading and occupying?

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I see, if you don't agree with Freds version of history you know nothing.

Have you read the thread?

Have you read the UCC multitext site?

Please do and then point out where I am wrong.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course I do, that is why I have said I don't EXPECT Irish people to wear the poppy.

By the way, I wrote that slowly, maybe the last three times I spelled that out I did it too quickly, hopefully it will sink home this time.

Thanks for clarifying. The reason I asked is that it seems to be at odds with the balance of the rest of your posts on this subject. Fair enough though.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now, do you understand why I get pissed off at pathetic "Patriots" who nothing about history, but trot out the same old tired 800 years type rhetoric whenever the word Britain is mentioned?

If I see any of that happening I will be sure to let you know.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It wasn't government policy to starve people to death.

It wasn't genocide. If you read the thread where I said I wasn't comfortable with calling it a famine you will see why. In fact, just read that whole thread, you might, no you will, learn something.

Genocide ffs, I see why decent Irish historians are embarrassed by the way history is taught in this country.

That entire post shows you NOTHING about Irish history including and especially the famine. You’re an idiot. your selective use of the historians in UCC is also more selective nonsense, next time I am having a cup of tea with them i will tell there is an English guy on boards who apparently knows more about Irish history than they do and to think they have been studying and writing books on the it for years, who would have thunk it

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

That entire post shows you NOTHING about Irish history including and especially the famine. You’re an idiot. your selective use of the historians in UCC is also more selective nonsense, next time I am having a cup of tea with them i will tell there is an English guy on boards who apparently knows more about Irish history than they do and to think they have been studying and writing books on the it for years, who would have thunk it

Great, instead of drinking tea, why not discuss your theories that the famine was actually genocide. Their response should be amusing.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Great, instead of drinking tea, why not discuss your theories that the famine was actually genocide. Their response should be amusing.

Trust me my theory on genocide is shared by many historians. Just man up and accept your forefathers behaved in a primitive and barbaric way towards Ireland and its people.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So if you support the war in Afghanistan, who do you think should be fighting it, are you volunteering?

If you accept that the war in Afghanistan is a valid war, where is this imaginary country that Britain is invading and occupying?

No, I do not support the war in Afghanistan.

No, I would not support yet another terrorist attack on Ireland. The British Govt has attaked us enough times.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No, I do not support the war in Afghanistan.

No, I would not support yet another terrorist attack on Ireland. The British Govt has attaked us enough times.

Ireland has also attacked Britain sunshine.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Great, instead of drinking tea, why not discuss your theories that the famine was actually genocide. Their response should be amusing.

Without offering my own views on this issue... many many historians believe that actions surrounding the "Famine" in Ireland was an act of genocide by the British Government.

They would point to the fact that Ireland was a net exporter of food during the times of the "Famine", a time when over 1 million people died of purposeful starvation.

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ireland has also attacked Britain sunshine.

Really? When was this mo chara?

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Really? When was this mo chara?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London

have fun reading,mostly civilians too might i add.

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

Trust me my theory on genocide is shared by many historians.

serious historians? I would like to see evidence of that, because there are quite a few on the history forum and every time the famine gets called genocide it gets laughed at.

SWL wrote: »

Just man up and accept your forefathers behaved in a primitive and barbaric way towards Ireland and its people.

My forefathers? I doubt it, there is a fair bit of Irish blood in my family and my family has always been of normal working class stock.

I think that actually is what pisses me off. You actually see it as all English people exploited all Irish people which conveniently ignores (for example) the Irish people that evicted families during the famine and the vast sums of money donated by English people to famine relief.

The people of Britain donated more money to famine relief than anyone else, yet it never gets a mention in Ireland, why is that?

laoch na mona

pmcmahon wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London

have fun reading,mostly civilians too might i add.

no mention of the irish state
bombing civilians is wrong and the provos should be ashamed of that
how is this relevant to the poppy?

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The people of Britain donated more money to famine relief than anyone else, yet it never gets a mention in Ireland, why is that?

but the government exported much more than was provided and you often had to change religion to get food ( they took the soup:D )

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

no mention of the irish state
bombing civilians is wrong and the provos should be ashamed of that
how is this relevant to the poppy?

however,these are the same people who were fighting for the independence of ireland,claiming to be the official army of Ireland,note that the Fenians are also mentioned.We need to agree that there is blood on both nations hands whether we like it or not.

I think the poppy situation left this thread along time ago.

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

but the government exported much more than was provided and you often had to change religion to get food ( they took the soup:D )

The government didn't export anything. What they should have done was to stop food being exported, but they didn't.

And the soup thing is a myth. There were very very few incidents of proseletysing (mainly by evangelists) and these were widely condemned by all the main churches.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

serious historians? I would like to see evidence of that, because there are quite a few on the history forum and every time the famine gets called genocide it gets laughed at.


My forefathers? I doubt it, there is a fair bit of Irish blood in my family and my family has always been of normal working class stock.

I think that actually is what pisses me off. You actually see it as all English people exploited all Irish people which conveniently ignores (for example) the Irish people that evicted families during the famine and the vast sums of money donated by English people to famine relief.

The people of Britain donated more money to famine relief than anyone else, yet it never gets a mention in Ireland, why is that?

Yes serious Historians look at Peter Duffy report he believes it was Genocide. As for the “Irish” who evicted people from the land for not paying rent, many of these where English landowners who were “gifted” Irish peoples land in the first place. If you are happy to take what is not rightfully yours then I doubt they were too concerned with the plight of the Irish, many of these landowners regarded the Irish as racially inferior to other nationalities, fifth class citizens aka the punch publications.

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

Yes serious Historians look at Peter Duffy report he believes it was Genocide. As for the “Irish” who evicted people from the land for not paying rent, many of these where English landowners who were “gifted” Irish peoples land in the first place. If you are happy to take what is not rightfully yours then I doubt they were too concerned with the plight of the Irish, many of these landowners regarded the Irish as racially inferior to other nationalities, fifth class citizens aka the punch publications.

Most of those doing the evicting were the middlemen. Many of these would have been Irish.

I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of some of Peter Duffy's work as a historian. Of the two Peter Duffy's mentioned in the wiki article you have no doubt just read, one is an author, the other is a barrister.

laoch na mona

but it was because of the english they were evicted