British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

but it was because of the english they were evicted

Replace Scottish with Irish


"I hate being Scottish. We're the lowest of the ****ing low, the scum of the earth, the most wretched, servile, miserable, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just ****. We, on the other hand, are colonized by ****. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a ****e state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any ****ing difference. "

laoch na mona

pmcmahon wrote: »

Replace Scottish with Irish


"I hate being Scottish. We're the lowest of the ****ing low, the scum of the earth, the most wretched, servile, miserable, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just ****. We, on the other hand, are colonized by ****. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a ****e state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any ****ing difference. "

non applicable we fought and didn't stop until we won

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

non applicable we fought and didn't stop until we won

if you won you'll be happy with the 26 counties you've flushed away in less than a century.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Things were done for the good of Britain herself, whether it was good or bad for the occupied people was irrelevant with respect to this. The priority as with all Empires was for the good of the Imperialists.

I would argue that much that came out of the British Empire even if it was intended solely for its own benefit was good even if only as a side effect of much that was horrible.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

There is always hatred when someone tries to "settle" on another's land and impose their will irrespective of the will of the natives. As in any other example around the world, the blame with regard to the ensuing conflict is with the invader (unless of course you are of the mindset that people should just accept invasion, "lie down" and accept it, in which case it would be wrong to commemorate those British who died fighting against Germany).

I don't think this argument works.

Everyone that dwellt in Ireland was a settler of some form or another. As much as I'm not overly interested in political landgrabbing, I personally don't resent people moving from A to B. The only consequence was political control.

The argument in particular loses significance if we think about what extent Irish people are descended from the very settlers that were there even in the Republic. To a large degree they are a part of our genealogy.

As a result I'm not particularly interested in pointing the fingers at people X or Y. People have done bad things on both sides. I'm happy to accept that much and move on from the blame game.

Settlement has come and go. Many different groups and demographics have settled in Ireland. Many different groups and demographics have settled in Britain and so on. These people make up the tapestry of life whether we like that or not.

That said, I'm not a hugely nationalistic person. I was born in Ireland, but I realise equally that I could have been born in Botswana or any other country for that matter.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most of those doing the evicting were the middlemen. Many of these would have been Irish.

I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of some of Peter Duffy's work as a historian. Of the two Peter Duffy's mentioned in the wiki article you have no doubt just read, one is an author, the other is a barrister.

Wiki article LOL. I don’t need to look at Wikipedia. Try Cormac O Grada he has done a lot of research into this area.
Edit: I see the Wikipedia article now, looks like it reinforces my understanding of the events. O Grada work id also discussed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

laoch na mona

pmcmahon wrote: »

if you won you'll be happy with the 26 counties you've flushed away in less than a century.

no but thankfully ye have seen sense and are willing to go with the will of the majority (st. Andrews agreement )
and listen to republicans

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London

have fun reading,mostly civilians too might i add.

Sorry but nothing in that link suggests that Ireland has attacked Britain... sunshine.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

no but thankfully ye have seen sense and are willing to go with the will of the majority (st. Andrews agreement )
and listen to republicans

what will republicanism bring to Ireland for all citizens that unionism won't?

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Sorry but nothing in that link suggests that Ireland has attacked Britain... sunshine.

must've been the french IRA so :rolleyes:

laoch na mona

pmcmahon wrote: »

what will republicanism bring to Ireland for all citizens that unionism won't?

i think the social and economic policies are important
but if the majority wanted to join the republic would you try to stop them

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

what will republicanism bring to Ireland for all citizens that unionism won't?

That you even have to ask such a question shows you have very little understanding of these issues.

SWL

pmcmahon wrote: »

what will republicanism bring to Ireland for all citizens that unionism won't?

Can not believe what I am reading - its not that straight forward:mad:

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

must've been the french IRA so :rolleyes:

But you said IRELAND attacked Britain, not the IRA.

You are patently wrong.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

But you said IRELAND attacked Britain, not the IRA.

You are patently wrong.

The IRA and republicans (which you are) at that stage and now to a degree recognised the IRA as the Official Army of Ireland,if not then you must admit they are a murderous terroist group.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

laoch na mona wrote: »

i think the social and economic policies are important
but if the majority wanted to join the republic would you try to stop them

of course in a democracy i wouldn't try to stop it with arms,however the republican movement has never shown concrete evidence that a 32 county republic is beneficial for all civvies living on the Island of Ireland including Unionists,that's the problem,the change would be geographical.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That you even have to ask such a question shows you have very little understanding of these issues.

prove me wrong,tell me why and how republicanism would benefit the majority of people in day to day issues vastly better than unionism.

SWL wrote: »

Can not believe what I am reading - its not that straight forward:mad:

why isn't it?

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

The IRA and republicans (which you are) at that stage and now to a degree recognised the IRA as the Official Army of Ireland,if not then you must admit they are a murderous terroist group.

So in trying to win a pedantic argument you're actually saying that you believe the IRA are the legitimate Army of the Irish Republic?

Yes or No please.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So in trying to win a pedantic argument you're actually saying that you believe the IRA are the legitimate Army of the Irish Republic?

Yes or No please.

To me they're nothing but murderers

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

of course in a democracy i wouldn't try to stop it with arms,however the republican movement has never shown concrete evidence that a 32 county republic is beneficial for all civvies living on the Island of Ireland including Unionists,that's the problem,the change would be geographical.


prove me wrong,tell me why and how republicanism would benefit the majority of people in day to day issues vastly better than unionism.


why isn't it?

Unionism has only even been concerned with Unionists. Unionism has always been about protecting what the majority had at the expense of the minority. Very few in the unionist community spoke out about Civil Rights in the late 60's and 70's, why do you think that was? Why wasn't there full support from the unionist community? Simple, because they weren't interested in a society where Nationalists were equal to them.

Republicanism is the complete opposite to all the above.

Unionists will be cherished in a 32 county Ireland, their rights will be cherished, as will their identity. I have absolutely no doubt that years from now working class Unionists will look back and realise that they too have been shafted by those who were meant to be protecting them.

The 06 is a wasp buzzing around the ears of England, they've no interest in you guys. They have made you over reliant on archaic public service employment which they are going to massively scale back in the years ahead.

There won't be a United Ireland as such, instead there will be a new Ireland where everything (flags, emblems local government etc...) will be up for grabs, it won't be about bringing the 06 into the 26 but a new shared future with better healthcare, more streamlined public service, more real employment, booming tourism, lower Corporation Tax to attract more inward investment etc...

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

To me they're nothing but murderers

That's not the question I asked you. I asked you do you believe the IRA are the legitimate Army of the Irish Republic?

SNAKEDOC

i believe the thread is about the poppy not the IRA lads kinda of the point. The poppy is not a british symbol of anything it is a unified symbol of many nations who in some way or another gave a huge sacrifice for the greater good in defeating an evil that was spreading over this world during the early century. A lot of british soldiers died during world war I and II and a lot of irish soldiers died during both conflicts too. just because the poppy is mostly a symbol worn by british does not make it exclusive. personally I am proud of any man who found a greater calling to defend his home and loved ones from what was the single greatest threat to the world. shame on any man woman or child who would slander their sacrifice so we could live today. so what if Irish lads joined the british army a lot also joined the Americans the Aussies and kiwi's armies and fought for the cause of freedom. Be proud of the irish who carried our flag into battle during both wars as that is what they did. they formed Irish regiments and platoons in foreign armies to fight and did so with honor. The least you all could do is realise that what was done was done out of necessity and these men stepped up. wear the poppy or don't the most important thing is you remember, . We created poets and nobel peace prize winners, we have sat in the oval office, we have spread to every corner of the globe, we have fought in both world wars, We're Irish and proud of our history

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Unionism has only even been concerned with Unionists. Unionism has always been about protecting what the majority had at the expense of the minority. Very few in the unionist community spoke out about Civil Rights in the late 60's and 70's, why do you think that was? Why wasn't there full support from the unionist community? Simple, because they weren't interested in a society where Nationalists were equal to them.

If Republicans were in power it would have been the other way around,walk down the falls even today and you will sense the hate in some people towards Unionists JUST on traditional level,republicans don't want anything to do with unionists,no matter what angel card they play,if the shoe was on the other foot,unionists would've been lynched.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Republicanism is the complete opposite to all the above.

Unionists will be cherished in a 32 county Ireland, their rights will be cherished, as will their identity. I have absolutely no doubt that years from now working class Unionists will look back and realise that they too have been shafted by those who were meant to be protecting them.

Unionism today is the complete opposite to all the above.

Irish will be cherished in a 32 county Ireland under british rule, their rights will be cherished, as will their identity. I have absolutely no doubt that years from now working class Irish will look back and realise that they too have been shafted by those who were meant to be protecting them.

that can work both ways,Especially today when ireland is on it's knees.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

here won't be a United Ireland as such, instead there will be a new Ireland where everything (flags, emblems local government etc...) will be up for grabs, it won't be about bringing the 06 into the 26 but a new shared future with better healthcare, more streamlined public service, more real employment, booming tourism, lower Corporation Tax to attract more inward investment etc...

better health care?,Irelands health service is third world
more real employment? Ireland can't get jobs for the 26 never mind a 32
booming tourism? it's already there
lower corporation tax? won't change anything without a confident currency,one which Ireland won't have back

now,how will republicanism fix the above?

The point i am trying to make is that Ireland at the moment cannot even take care of it's own people down south,there is no hope in hell it could take the pressure of another country with all that baggage.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That's not the question I asked you. I asked you do you believe the IRA are the legitimate Army of the Irish Republic?

They are no the legitimate army of the republic,however they are the legitimate army for republicanism,you can support the Official PDF and do away with your republican views and settle for a 26 county or support the IRA for the 32.

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

They are no the legitimate army of the republic,however they are the legitimate army for republicanism,you can support the Official PDF and do away with your republican views and settle for a 26 county or support the IRA for the 32.

What?

Are you saying that if I support a 32 county Ireland that I must also see the IRA as the official Army of this State?

Wolfe Tone

pmcmahon wrote: »

They are no the legitimate army of the republic,however they are the legitimate army for republicanism,you can support the Official PDF and do away with your republican views and settle for a 26 county or support the IRA for the 32.

Sorry, but this is just plain retarded.

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

Irish will be cherished in a 32 county Ireland under british rule, their rights will be cherished, as will their identity.

Hilarious!!!

Absolutely hilarious!!!

Why oh why oh why would we go back under British rule? Unbelievably there are Irish people, albeit very fw and very odd people, who actually think that this would be a good idea.

That's just the same as the battered wife always returning to the abusive husband that beats her after he promises he'll never hit her again. Always looking for the love... but never getting it.

Why would we want to make the same mistake again? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

bobbysands81

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

The poppy is not a british symbol of anything it is a unified symbol of many nations who in some way or another gave a huge sacrifice for the greater good in defeating an evil that was spreading over this world during the early century.

Mo chara, you need to read up on what the poppy stands for as you're miles off here.

mlumley

So, a simple question decended into an English Irish ira Udf slaging. My thoughts are a bit more simplistic. I think that a lot of Irish fought for Britain to fight facism. Some people are blinkered in their thinking that Germany would have stopped in England. Utter crap, they would of come right accross the Irish Sea and invaded Ireland, Nutral or not.

So, you should honor those brave souls who gave you the freedoms you now enjoy. They didnt fight for Briain, they fought for your freedome. If you see a way grave, salute that person, you owe them a lot.

I could never in my 18 years of living in Ireland, understand why you never honour your war dead. They gave you the freedom to continue the fight to gain 32 counties. Under Hitler that would not of happened. Go buy a poppy and be proud of them, they did it for you.

sausagehead

i would have fought in wwII for germany!
had germany won the second world war, we all might be in a better place, than what we have now! :eek:

Cú Giobach

philologos wrote: »

I would argue that much that came out of the British Empire even if it was intended solely for its own benefit was good even if only as a side effect of much that was horrible.

You cannot justify something evil by an accidental good that might have come from it.

I don't think this argument works.

Everyone that dwellt in Ireland was a settler of some form or another. As much as I'm not overly interested in political landgrabbing, I personally don't resent people moving from A to B. The only consequence was political control.

I really don't get this
Are you saying the invasion of Ireland, the plantations, ethnic cleansing and the subjugation of an entire people, was nothing more than people moving from A to B with no consequences other than who ran the country?

The argument in particular loses significance if we think about what extent Irish people are descended from the very settlers that were there even in the Republic. To a large degree they are a part of our genealogy.

Try telling that to Junder or KeithAFC.

Settlement has come and go. Many different groups and demographics have settled in Ireland. Many different groups and demographics have settled in Britain and so on. These people make up the tapestry of life whether we like that or not.

And ones who eventually cause problems are often the ones that don't mix.

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

My god.......why all the anger and hatred?!

I mean come on....since when is honouring and remembering the war dead a crime?

Lets drop the British bashing and whinging on and on about the occupation and the murderous black-and-tans and so forth. These things are in the past.....lets leave them there.

Can we please please please cop on, grow up and accept that it is now 2011 and time to move on. Britain is no longer the enemy and the occupation ended long ago, let the past lie.

If people want to wear the poppy they should be allowed to do so without being insulted and abused.

Cú Giobach

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I mean come on....since when is honouring and remembering the war dead a crime?

British remembering their past = Good.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Lets drop the British bashing and whinging on and on about the occupation and the murderous black-and-tans and so forth. These things are in the past.....lets leave them there.

Irish remembering their past = Bad.

Double standards.

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

British remembering their past = Good.

Irish remembering their past = Bad.

Double standards.

Thats not what I meant and you know it.

I have no problem with anyone remember the Irish dead at all. I just don't see why the poppy is such an issue that's all.

No double standards there......but nice try.

Cú Giobach

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone remember the Irish dead at all. I just don't see why the poppy is such an issue that's all.

If Irish people remember their dead they will hardly have much time for something that represents the people that killed them. There is the crux.

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If Irish people remember their dead they will hardly have much time for something that represents the people that killed them. There is the crux.

Wrong.....Irish soldiers haven't died fighting for Ireland alone. Take my great-grandfather who died fighting for England in Beligium like thousands of others in both World Wars.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for war dead from many other countries around the world not just Britan......otherwise why would the Germans, French etc were it?

You can bluster and pontificate all you like....it doesn't change the facts.

Cú Giobach

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Wrong.....Irish soldiers haven't died fighting for Ireland alone. Take my great-grandfather who died fighting for England in Beligium like thousands of others in both World Wars.

Interesting, how can something I never said be wrong, some sort of quantum fluctuation perhaps? I never said Irish people only died for Ireland.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for war dead from many other countries around the world not just Britan......otherwise why would the Germans, French etc were it?

You can bluster and pontificate all you like....it doesn't change the facts.

Symbols can go way beyond their actual meanings and become linked to certain events and peoples, to most people the poppy represents British or Commonwealth armed forces dead more than any other, ignoring how people feel about or view this (or any) symbol is being disingenuous and ignorant.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You cannot justify something evil by an accidental good that might have come from it.

Who said I was trying to justify anything that was evil? The original point if you read back was that a poster said that nothing good came from the British Empire. That's false as far as I see it. One couldn't earnestly say that. I don't fully agree that it was evil as a country rather than evil as a result of a huge proportion of its foreign policy.

Then again, I think the blame game is a little off considering how much both sides have been involved in this issue.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I really don't get this
Are you saying the invasion of Ireland, the plantations, ethnic cleansing and the subjugation of an entire people, was nothing more than people moving from A to B with no consequences other than who ran the country?

Arguably, it was political influence that was the issue. If it wasn't then we would object just as strongly to previous nations who had asserted that they had a right to live in Ireland. Irish people are really a tapestry of people from a number of different sources over a number of different time periods as people generally are. It's futile to say which people is better. I remember from rudimentary history we did at school that one of the first settlements in Ireland was at Mount Sandel in Derry around 7000BC.

Guess what? Those people came from somewhere. I don't believe they had any inherent right to the land but nonetheless they settled there and here we as Irish people in 2011 to tell the tale.

It's a little futile to say that the ancestors of a huge swathe of Irish people should have never come because I and others no doubt would be different people as a result.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Try telling that to Junder or KeithAFC.

I don't know why you are telling me this. I find dogmatic unionism about as repulsive as dogmatic nationalism. I'm more interested in finding out what the truth is.

Moving forward from petty tribalism is what I would encourage.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

And ones who eventually cause problems are often the ones that don't mix.

What do you mean?

citytillidie

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Wrong.....Irish soldiers haven't died fighting for Ireland alone. Take my great-grandfather who died fighting for England in Beligium like thousands of others in both World Wars.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for war dead from many other countries around the world not just Britan......otherwise why would the Germans, French etc were it?

You can bluster and pontificate all you like....it doesn't change the facts.

The French and others have remembrance day but only Britain and the Commonwealth countries in the allied forces that wear a poppy.

bobbysands81

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

My god.......why all the anger and hatred?!

I mean come on....since when is honouring and remembering the war dead a crime?

Lets drop the British bashing and whinging on and on about the occupation and the murderous black-and-tans and so forth. These things are in the past.....lets leave them there.

Surely then you feel the same way about commemorating people who died in the distant past? Otherwise that's what's known as double standards.

Cú Giobach

philologos wrote: »

Who said I was trying to justify anything that was evil? The original point if you read back was that a poster said that nothing good came from the British Empire. That's false as far as I see it. One couldn't earnestly say that. I don't fully agree that it was evil as a country rather than evil as a result of a huge proportion of its foreign policy.
Then again, I think the blame game is a little off considering how much both sides have been involved in this issue.

There is no such thing as "an evil country", power and policies are wielded and set by minorities (ie; the rich and powerful) in favour of their own vested interests.
The British empire was exploitative in nature, this was the very reason for its existence and to exploit others is generally considered wrong.

I'll give you the words of Tacitus writing in the 1st century regarding the Roman occupation of Britain.
And so the population was gradually led into the demoralising temptations of arcades, baths and sumptuous banquets. The unsuspecting Britons spoke of such novelties as 'civilisation', when in fact they were only a feature of their own enslavement.

Arguably, it was political influence that was the issue. If it wasn't then we would object just as strongly to previous nations who had asserted that they had a right to live in Ireland. Irish people are really a tapestry of people from a number of different sources over a number of different time periods as people generally are. It's futile to say which people is better. I remember from rudimentary history we did at school that one of the first settlements in Ireland was at Mount Sandel in Derry around 7000BC.

Guess what? Those people came from somewhere. I don't believe they had any inherent right to the land but nonetheless they settled there and here we as Irish people in 2011 to tell the tale.

It's a little futile to say that the ancestors of a huge swathe of Irish people should have never come because I and others no doubt would be different people as a result.

I am not saying in this thread who does or doesn't have a right to live on this island, all I am saying is that in a situation where you have distinct national groupings, if one group of people exercise power and privilege over another to the detriment of one group this will lead to tension and hatred.
The problems on this island were not caused by who ran the place but how they ran it.

I don't know why you are telling me this. I find dogmatic unionism about as repulsive as dogmatic nationalism. I'm more interested in finding out what the truth is.

Moving forward from petty tribalism is what I would encourage.

Well the flag of the republic of Ireland represents the coming together of the two main "tribes" on this island and the wishes of many is to unite "catholic, protestant and dissenter".

What do you mean?

Division can cause friction.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

Name one.

i expected that, www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk>...>local&national>northernireland quote,children have appeared dressed up as republican paramilities and brandishing replica guns in south armagh community centre which has received hundreds of thousands on pounds in EU funds, they were wearing balaclavas,combat jackets and trousers,dark glasses and berets,,and brandishing replica weapons including AK47s and armalites, TI CHULAINN CENTRE MULLAGHBAWN not only is there a child protection issue,but there is a issue of incitement of terrorism.

bobbysands81

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ireland has also attacked Britain sunshine.

pmcmahon wrote: »

They are no the legitimate army of the republic

At last we've reached a premise that all knew already, Irelad has not attacked Britain.

Amazing that this had to be teased out of someone over a few posts.

bobbysands81

I believe the question put to you was to name "a community centre" built by UK money "in republican areas in the north to promote sectarian views"

getz wrote: »

i expected that, www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk>...>local&national>northernireland quote,children have appeared dressed up as republican paramilities and brandishing replica guns in south armagh community centre which has received hundreds of thousands on pounds in EU funds, they were wearing balaclavas,combat jackets and trousers,dark glasses and berets,,and brandishing replica weapons including AK47s and armalites, TI CHULAINN CENTRE MULLAGHBAWN not only is there a child protection issue,but there is a issue of incitement of terrorism.

Your answer does not deal with the question. Your faux outrage to what you deem to be sectarian is hilarious. Unionists moaning about sectarianism never ceases to amaze me given you presided over a sectarian state for so long, and would continue to do so if you had a chance.

Tell me, do you complain about Orange Halls as well or is that kind of sectarianism the right kind?

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

May I suggest you look at a map? The occupation of Ireland is still ongoing.

Oh, that place? The 6 counties? That's not Ireland.:rolleyes:

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I believe the question put to you was to name "a community centre" built by UK money "in republican areas in the north to promote sectarian views"



Your answer does not deal with the question. Your faux outrage to what you deem to be sectarian is hilarious. Unionists moaning about sectarianism never ceases to amaze me given you presided over a sectarian state for so long, and would continue to do so if you had a chance.

Tell me, do you complain about Orange Halls as well or is that kind of sectarianism the right kind?

that question was not put to me,i put it up and i was asked to name one,and the one i named was the TI chulainn center,it first came to light when republicans posted the pics on a republican website, and a father of one child who was asked by his son if he could join the junior IRAs at this club,his dad went crazy and complained to the club and the authorities, it seems when ever you are found out ,you go into a rant,what happened there is fact not some rumour.the center its self said it was unaware that this was going on in their building,if you believe that you will believe anything,

Dyr

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Wrong.....Irish soldiers haven't died fighting for Ireland alone. Take my great-grandfather who died fighting for England in Beligium like thousands of others in both World Wars.

The poppy is a symbol of rememberance for war dead from many other countries around the world not just Britan......otherwise why would the Germans, French etc were it?

You can bluster and pontificate all you like....it doesn't change the facts.

The Germans don't wear it. The French don't wear it. And if it was also commemorating dead Germans the Brits would never have adopted it.

The Germans have the decency to hold a national day of mourning instead of a month worth of jingoism. The Germans also remember those who died due to government oppression, something that the poppy wearers would never countenance.

So yeah, the facts don't change..except to suit yourself.

old hippy

Bambi wrote: »

The Germans don't wear it. The French don't wear it. And if it was also commemorating dead Germans the Brits would never have adopted it.

The Germans have the decency to hold a national day of mourning instead of a month worth of jingoism. The Germans also remember those who died due to government oppression, something that the poppy wearers would never countenance.

So yeah, the facts don't change..except to suit yourself.

Different folk have different ways of commemorating the dead

Snickers Man

Letter in the Irish Times today crystalises for me what most annoys me about the broader issue.

A guy called Dick Byrne calls on all of us ("Wouldn't it be fitting....if we...paused to remember")

If somebody wants to wear a poppy then go ahead. I'm not going to spit on you for it. But the main thrust of this argument year after year is not "Why can't I?" (you can) but "Why don't we?" And the answer, as this poll clearly shows is because that requires a consensus and in this issue we are divided into an almost perfect 50-50 split.

I would just point out that it was no different 90 years ago. There was a broad spectrum of opinion regarding the war and Irish people's attitudes to it, spanning from unadulterated Empire patriotism (the Unionist position) to general support for the war effort (Redmond) to ambivalent support (the Irish Volunteers) to outright hostility (socialists and republicans "We serve neither King nor Kaiser..")

Those who want to impose a consensus view on what was a bitterly divisive issue are anti historical. Stick your poppy on your lapel and leave me to make up my own bloody mind please!

PS Dick Byrne?
I think Father Ted had the right attitude to him "Ooh I HATE Father Dick Byrne"

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

The Germans don't wear it. The French don't wear it. And if it was also commemorating dead Germans the Brits would never have adopted it.

The Germans have the decency to hold a national day of mourning instead of a month worth of jingoism. The Germans also remember those who died due to government oppression, something that the poppy wearers would never countenance.

So yeah, the facts don't change..except to suit yourself.

Representatives from Germany will be at the cenotaph on Sunday and the German chancellor has attended many British and allies memorial events.

Britain and Germany have settled their differences, which is why the are a number of towns and cities in both countries that are twinned. The most poignant probably being Coventry and Dresden.

Remembrance isn't about hating Germans/Muslims or whatever, it is about recognising the individuals who have made sacrifices.

From€ your post, are we to presume that the morally superior Irish remember all the British and Irish soldiers and members of the RIC that died during the civil war?

I thought not.

Dyr

Oh Fred, so defensive. Do the germans wear poppies? No. Do the French wear popies? No. Case closed.

From€ your post, are we to presume that the morally superior Irish remember all the British and Irish soldiers and members of the RIC that died during the civil war?

By wearing an easter lily? No, we don't, mainly because we're not raging hypocrites in that regard.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Representatives from Germany will be at the cenotaph on Sunday and the German chancellor has attended many British and allies memorial events.

Britain and Germany have settled their differences, which is why the are a number of towns and cities in both countries that are twinned. The most poignant probably being Coventry and Dresden.

Remembrance isn't about hating Germans/Muslims or whatever, it is about recognising the individuals who have made sacrifices.

From€ your post, are we to presume that the morally superior Irish remember all the British and Irish soldiers and members of the RIC that died during the civil war?

I thought not.

German soldiers never occupied Britain and committed atrocities on the population, in situations where this happened reconciliation takes much longer, and is a lot harder.