British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

Oh Fred, so defensive. Do the germans wear poppies? No. Do the French wear popies? No. Case closed.

no, but they don't throw their toys out of their respective prams over the poppy either, because they don't use history as an excuse for bigotry.

Bambi wrote: »

By wearing an easter lily? No, we don't, mainly because we're not raging hypocrites in that regard.

And yet we have seen someone calling themselves Bobbysands claiming the Irish have never bomber the UK.

We've also had big boss Marty telling us to get over the past and move on, whilst claiming that the Queen isn't welcome in Ireland because it is "Too Soon".

It is amazing how many John Waynes there are in this thread, so many peoplke on high horses.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Bambi wrote: »

Oh Fred, so defensive. Do the germans wear poppies? No. Do the French wear popies? No. Case closed.




By wearing an easter lily? No, we don't, mainly because we're not raging hypocrites in that regard.

the french do not wear the poppy to remember their dead,because they wear the blue cornflower instead,but poppies are sold in france in aid of french orphans,poppies are sent to over 120 countries by the british legion, poppies in scotland a different to the english poppy,they have four leaves instead of two[like the canadian one]this year south africa has gone mad for poppies,300,000 have had to be sent as well as 50 wreaths. just correcting you

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

German soldiers never occupied Britain and committed atrocities on the population, in situations where this happened reconciliation takes much longer, and is a lot harder.

What a load of crap.

No British person has ever carried out atrocities on you or anybody you know.

germany and France appear to have resolved their differences and the German and Israeli cabinets regularly make visits to each other.

The problem in Ireland is as much about small neighbour syndrome as it is history.

Dyr

getz wrote: »

the french do not wear the poppy to remember their dead,because they wear the blue cornflower instead,but poppies are sold in france in aid of french orphans,poppies are sent to over 120 countries by the british legion, poppies in scotland a different to the english poppy,they have four leaves instead of two[like the canadian one]this year south africa has gone mad for poppies,300,000 have had to be sent as well as 50 wreaths. just correcting you

You haven't corrected anything but thanks for trying anyway

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What a load of crap.

No British person has ever carried out atrocities on you or anybody you know.

germany and France appear to have resolved their differences and the German and Israeli cabinets regularly make visits to each other.

The problem in Ireland is as much about small neighbour syndrome as it is history.

yes and six million jews were murdered by the natzi,in the holocaust but they have moved on.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The problem in Ireland is as much about small neighbour syndrome as it is history.

You better tell FIFA that. They see what the poppy really stands for.

"David Cameron calls Fifa's England poppy ban 'absurd'"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/15652356

Fifa rules mean teams cannot wear shirts carrying political, religious or commercial messages

Too right.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What a load of crap.

Actually it is fact, the island of Britain was never occupied by German forces.

Come on Fred you are loosing the plot again.

No British person has ever carried out atrocities on you or anybody you know.

Interesting how you can make definitive statements about people you don't know. I never said atrocities were committed on me or people I know, but...
my family are from Belfast and as with most nationalist families there, have had unpleasant dealings with the British army.
To go further back my Grandfather up there had the living crap beaten out of him by that organisation during the 1921/2 business.

germany and France appear to have resolved their differences and the German and Israeli cabinets regularly make visits to each other.

As do the Irish and British, your point?
Try going to Israel and seeing how much animosity is still there 70 years after the Holocaust, go to Russia and get the feeling towards Germans, go to Poland and get the feelings towards Germans or Russians, go to Vietnam and see the feelings towards Americans.
You live in a little fantasy world worthy of a Blackadderesqe WWI general, with soldiers playing football at Christmas with no hatred and just doing their job.
I tell you Fred there were no football matches on the rubbled streets of Stalingrad or no stopping for a fag and handshake for the Americans and Japanese on Saipan, just unbridled hatred.

The problem in Ireland is as much about small neighbour syndrome as it is history.

The only problem is with people blind to the realities of war and conflict, considering it some sort of game between gentleman where all is forgiven and forgotten as soon as the guns fall silent, it isn't and animosities travel through the generations.

Latchy

No (I'm Irish)

The poppy as a fashion statement , worn by every tv guest looking to plug something not in sync with it's intentions but it does get the poppy recognised more I suppose .

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

You better tell FIFA that. They see what the poppy really stands for.

"David Cameron calls Fifa's England poppy ban 'absurd'"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/15652356



Too right.

yes we cannot upset the whiter than white officials of FIFA can we,i wonder if i slipped this brown ,never mind

Prefab Sprouter

No (I'm Irish)

Two sides of an argument that neither will back down from and each side vainly trying to make the other see sense and it happens year after year.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. There is no right or wrong here because both sides can find ample reason to justify their positions.

As for me, I hope to be wearing one. I have a relative who died in 1917, a member of the Irish Guards. For me, its not about defending an empire or kicking sand in the face of republicans. Its about recognising that a man lies in a field in Flanders and we didnt know about him for decades because in this country you didnt talk about the people who took the King's shilling. I'll wear it on 11th November on the anniversary of the end of WW1, just for that day. I dont have to wear the poppy to remember him, but I choose to do so. For many Irish its a personal choice and some may see it as a political symbol but for me its about Richard, not about Empire, Britain or Anti-Irishness.

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Actually it is fact, the island of Britain was never occupied by German forces.

Come on Fred you are loosing the plot again.

Interesting how you can make definitive statements about people you don't know. I never said atrocities were committed on me or people I know, but...
my family are from Belfast and as with most nationalist families there, have had unpleasant dealings with the British army.
To go further back my Grandfather up there had the living crap beaten out of him by that organisation during the 1921/2 business.

As do the Irish and British, your point?
Try going to Israel and seeing how much animosity is still there 70 years after the Holocaust, go to Russia and get the feeling towards Germans, go to Poland and get the feelings towards Germans or Russians, go to Vietnam and see the feelings towards Americans.
You live in a little fantasy world worthy of a Blackadderesqe WWI general, with soldiers playing football at Christmas with no hatred and just doing their job.
I tell you Fred there were no football matches on the rubbled streets of Stalingrad or no stopping for a fag and handshake for the Americans and Japanese on Saipan, just unbridled hatred.


The only problem is with people blind to the realities of war and conflict, considering it some sort of game between gentleman where all is forgiven and forgotten as soon as the guns fall silent, it isn't and animosities travel through the generations.

Please don't patronise me, I grew up in a town that knows all about war.

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Please don't patronise me, I grew up in a town that knows all about war.

.
Would that be a personal experience of yours with war, or a place that sends its people off to fight wars in other peoples' countries, or a place that experienced war before you were around?

old hippy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Please don't patronise me, I grew up in a town that knows all about war.

My war is bigger than your war etc

Prefab Sprouter

No (I'm Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

.
Would that be a personal experience of yours with war, or a place that sends its people off to fight wars in other peoples' countries, or a place that experienced war before you were around?

It could be all 3, your point is?

Cú Giobach

Prefab Sprouter wrote: »

It could be all 3, your point is?

My point was to find out the answer to the question.

ejmaztec

Prefab Sprouter wrote: »

Two sides of an argument that neither will back down from and each side vainly trying to make the other see sense and it happens year after year.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. There is no right or wrong here because both sides can find ample reason to justify their positions.

As for me, I hope to be wearing one. I have a relative who died in 1917, a member of the Irish Guards. For me, its not about defending an empire or kicking sand in the face of republicans. Its about recognising that a man lies in a field in Flanders and we didnt know about him for decades because in this country you didnt talk about the people who took the King's shilling. I'll wear it on 11th November on the anniversary of the end of WW1, just for that day. I dont have to wear the poppy to remember him, but I choose to do so. For many Irish its a personal choice and some may see it as a political symbol but for me its about Richard, not about Empire, Britain or Anti-Irishness.

Anyone promoting the poppy in an Irish forum is pissing against the wind, because the old chestnuts are brought into the argument every year without fail. In fact, perhaps people should have a chestnut on their lapels?


I wore a poppy every year when I was in the UK, but when I put more thought into it, I decided that it shouldn't be the responsibility of a charity to be involved in the fund-raising, and that any funds should come from the British government. As I mentioned about 25000 posts ago, they treat disabled and hard-up ex-servicemen and women appallingly.

Dyr

mlumley wrote: »

So, a simple question decended into an English Irish ira Udf slaging. My thoughts are a bit more simplistic. I think that a lot of Irish fought for Britain to fight facism. Some people are blinkered in their thinking that Germany would have stopped in England. Utter crap, they would of come right accross the Irish Sea and invaded Ireland, Nutral or not.

So, you should honor those brave souls who gave you the freedoms you now enjoy. They didnt fight for Briain, they fought for your freedome. If you see a way grave, salute that person, you owe them a lot.

I could never in my 18 years of living in Ireland, understand why you never honour your war dead. They gave you the freedom to continue the fight to gain 32 counties. Under Hitler that would not of happened. Go buy a poppy and be proud of them, they did it for you.

Hold the bus here a minute..the greatest threat to our freedom in world war 2 was the British..Churchill was itching to invade the republic and it was only the Americans that held him back. Had we been aligned with Britain we would have been pasted by the Germans and truth be told Uncle Adolph had little real interest in us or the British.

Neutrality was by far the best course of action that a newly independent country could take.

fata_morgana

Cú Giobach wrote: »

animosities travel through the generations.

That is so desperately sad. Everyone's country, more or less, has at some time been the victim or perpetrator of horrendous deeds, if you go back far enough.

To be racked by bitterness and hatred for events that took place before you were born is terrible.

This is the 21st century, we're one world, each one of us is a person getting by in that world. Let's remember and learn from history, but what is all this nationalist and historical pain? Isn't it far better to take everyone you meet for who they are as a person, not what their country might once have done in the distant past?

And for the record I know plenty of people from countries, who were once at war, who are friends with one another. Vietnamese / American, Russian / German and British / Irish.

Dr.Syn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

I am British. I proudly wear the poppy in honour of those who have fallen in the struggle for peace regardless of race. If I could get my hands on one I would wear a white one as well as the red

Fratton Fred

Cú Giobach wrote: »

.
Would that be a personal experience of yours with war, or a place that sends its people off to fight wars in other peoples' countries, or a place that experienced war before you were around?

Have I been to war? No.

Do I have friends and relatives that have been to war? Yes, the ones I have met have been in wars ranging from WWII to the first Gulf war. Two of my neighbours were killed in the Falklands. One on HMS Sheffield, the other on HMS Coventry.

Has my town experienced war? Let's just say Portsmouth and the Luftwaffe weren't exactly strangers.

A lot of people on these boards have had far closer experiences than I have of war, but I (and most of my generation). Had the full horrors of what war was drummed into us from an early age.

old hippy

fata_morgana wrote: »

That is so desperately sad. Everyone's country, more or less, has at some time been the victim or perpetrator of horrendous deeds, if you go back far enough.

To be racked by bitterness and hatred for events that took place before you were born is terrible.

This is the 21st century, we're one world, each one of us is a person getting by in that world. Let's remember and learn from history, but what is all this nationalist and historical pain? Isn't it far better to take everyone you meet for who they are as a person, not what their country might once have done in the distant past?

And for the record I know plenty of people from countries, who were once at war, who are friends with one another. Vietnamese / American, Russian / German and British / Irish.

It is far better, Fata but we tend to cling onto the tragic and miserable - it's a national trait. Even more so when we've no money left to distract us.

What's more satisfying than keeping the fires of hatred a burning?

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

Hold the bus here a minute..the greatest threat to our freedom in world war 2 was the British..Churchill was itching to invade the republic and it was only the Americans that held him back. Had we been aligned with Britain we would have been pasted by the Germans and truth be told Uncle Adolph had little real interest in us or the British.

Neutrality was by far the best course of action that a newly independent country could take.

Neutrality was Ireland's best option and I think Dev played it just right.

The bit about Churchill though is fantasy. Plans were drawn up to invade Ireland, but that was only if Ireland became a belligerent nation.

Cú Giobach

fata_morgana wrote: »

That is so desperately sad. Everyone's country, more or less, has at some time been the victim or perpetrator of horrendous deeds, if you go back far enough.

To be racked by bitterness and hatred for events that took place before you were born is terrible.

This is the 21st century, we're one world, each one of us is a person getting by in that world. Let's remember and learn from history, but what is all this nationalist and historical pain? Isn't it far better to take everyone you meet for who they are as a person, not what their country might once have done in the distant past?

And for the record I know plenty of people from countries, who were once at war, who are friends with one another. Vietnamese / American, Russian / German and British / Irish.

It's sad but it's true, just to take one example, in Israel there are people who have forgiven, people who try hard to but are unable, and people who will never.
Though this thread isn't really about actual animosity towards individuals, but about something that, for many, symbolises individuals who's track record here wasn't the best.
Personally I hold no animosity towards anybody (except maybe a certain lady who wrecked my head ).

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A lot of people on these boards have had far closer experiences than I have of war, but I (and most of my generation). Had the full horrors of what war was drummed into us from an early age.

I'm from that generation too Freddy and grew up hearing stories of the Blitz, rationing, hiding under the stairs as the sirens went off, hearing the buzz bombs cut out....etc
You see you think because I can't abide your attitude I have some sort of problem with British people, but my connections with that country are very deep and strong.
If you know so much about war how come the naive attitude regarding forgiving and forgetting?

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

Oh, that place? The 6 counties? That's not Ireland.:rolleyes:

Everyone's (Nationalist, Unionist, Couldn'tgivea****est) definition of Ireland includes both the 06 (or Northern Ireland if you prefer) and the Republic.

Unless you have a new definition of Ireland?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And yet we have seen someone calling themselves Bobbysands claiming the Irish have never bomber the UK.

Can you tell me when 'the Irish' or 'Ireland' have bombed Britain please.

That's quite a startling accusation you're throwing out there considering Britain has been resposible for the deaths of countless Irish men and women on Irish soil throughout the centuries... why aren't you outraged about that?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What a load of crap.

No British person has ever carried out atrocities on you or anybody you know.

germany and France appear to have resolved their differences and the German and Israeli cabinets regularly make visits to each other.

The problem in Ireland is as much about small neighbour syndrome as it is history.

WOW!

This is possibly the most ignorant post I've ever read on here.

bobbysands81

Dr.Syn wrote: »

I am British. I proudly wear the poppy in honour of those who have fallen in the struggle for peace regardless of race. If I could get my hands on one I would wear a white one as well as the red

Serious question here...

How do you square off commemorating "those who have fallen in the struggle for peace" by wearing a poppy which celebrates a war mongering invading army that is anything but peaceful?

To me those two positions are polar opposites.

legendary.xix

Not at all in answer to the question posed on this topic.

Britain has gone poppy mad in the last few years. It really is gone to a ridiculous scale altogether. There's this debate about the English football team at the moment and FIFA's refusal to allow them wear the poppy. It has never been an issue any other Novemeber. Only one or two league clubs did wear the poppy now they're all at it. What has led to this increased issue of wearing a poppy or not in recent years? It really has gotten out of control. I'd see it no different to daffodil day a worthy cause. It's an independent choice by people. People should not be castigated for not wearing a poppy across the water.

Morlar

legendary.xix wrote: »

Not at all in answer to the question posed on this topic.

Britain has gone poppy mad in the last few years. It really is gone to a ridiculous scale altogether. There's this debate about the English football team at the moment and FIFA's refusal to allow them wear the poppy. It has never been an issue any other Novemeber. Only one or two league clubs did wear the poppy now they're all at it. What has led to this increased issue of wearing a poppy or not in recent years? It really has gotten out of control. I'd see it no different to daffodil day a worthy cause. It's an independent choice by people. People should not be castigated for not wearing a poppy across the water.

Mr Cameron said: 'This seems outrageous. The idea that wearing a poppy to remember those who have given their lives for our freedom is a political act is absurd. Wearing a poppy is an act of huge respect and (British) national pride. I hope that FIFA will reconsider.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2059198/FIFA-poppy-ban-Germans-England-wear-poppies-David-Cameron-blasts-FIFA.html#ixzz1dDdEab4l

.

barneystinson

No (I'm Irish)

legendary.xix wrote: »

Not at all in answer to the question posed on this topic.

Britain has gone poppy mad in the last few years. It really is gone to a ridiculous scale altogether. There's this debate about the English football team at the moment and FIFA's refusal to allow them wear the poppy. It has never been an issue any other Novemeber. Only one or two league clubs did wear the poppy now they're all at it. What has led to this increased issue of wearing a poppy or not in recent years? It really has gotten out of control. I'd see it no different to daffodil day a worthy cause. It's an independent choice by people. People should not be castigated for not wearing a poppy across the water.

I'd noticed that escalation of the whole thing as well, and I assume its because of the fact that they've got tens of thousands of young people in Afghanistan / Iraq etc. these last few years, and are constantly seeing and hearing about the casualties...

ejmaztec

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Serious question here...

How do you square off commemorating "those who have fallen in the struggle for peace" by wearing a poppy which celebrates a war mongering invading army that is anything but peaceful?

To me those two positions are polar opposites.

Probably the only peaceful army on the planet is the Salvation Army.

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Everyone's (Nationalist, Unionist, Couldn'tgivea****est) definition of Ireland includes both the 06 (or Northern Ireland if you prefer) and the Republic.

Unless you have a new definition of Ireland?

I see the Republic of Ireland as 26 counties. I see the 6 counties as neither part of the UK nor Ireland.

Cú Giobach

barneystinson wrote: »

I'd noticed that escalation of the whole thing as well, and I assume its because of the fact that they've got tens of thousands of young people in Afghanistan / Iraq etc. these last few years, and are constantly seeing and hearing about the casualties...

Spot on. They have to keep the population feeling that it is a good and glorious thing to die in battle, in order to keep sending them off to die.
There could also be an escalation or something new in the offing.

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

I see the Republic of Ireland as 26 counties. I see the 6 counties as neither part of the UK nor Ireland.

Ireland is a geographical entity that consists of two separate political jurisdictions, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the geographical entity that is Ireland, that is unrefutable. I know of nobody who has a different opinion than that.

Any map or atlas will show that, heck even wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ireland is a geographical entity that consists of two separate political jurisdictions, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the geographical entity that is Ireland, that is unrefutable. I know of nobody who has a different opinion than that.

Any map or atlas will show that, heck even wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

Indeed. I just don't see the 6 counties as having any particular bearing on the Republic, that's all.

bobbysands81

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Spot on. They have to keep the population feeling that it is a good and glorious thing to die in battle, in order to keep sending them off to die.
There could also be an escalation or something new in the offing.

And at the same time that they're sending them off to die they won't even care for them or their families properly when they return wounded or dead. Instead these men and women that have 'fought for their country' have to pass round the begging bowl. Shows how badly they're thought of by their own.

bobbysands81

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed. I just don't see the 6 counties as having any particular bearing on the Republic, that's all.

Fair enough, that's a different argument and you're entitled to think that way.

Gingko

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed. I just don't see the 6 counties as having any particular bearing on the Republic, that's all.

I don't think old hippy is an old hippy! Well maybe old? But not a hippy!

ejmaztec

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Spot on. They have to keep the population feeling that it is a good and glorious thing to die in battle, in order to keep sending them off to die.
There could also be an escalation or something new in the offing.

Anyone with any sense over there doesn't fall for the propaganda, not like the good old days when no-one really knew what was going on due to the primitive communications set-up across the world. People were probably only getting information on 1% of what was actually happening.

krissovo

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

And at the same time that they're sending them off to die they won't even care for them or their families properly when they return wounded or dead. Instead these men and women that have 'fought for their country' have to pass round the begging bowl. Shows how badly they're thought of by their own.

This statement just shows you are talking complete B/S

You have no idea and yet you spout these false extreme statements. Begging bowl - now you are taking the piss.

old hippy

Gingko wrote: »

I don't think old hippy is an old hippy! Well maybe old? But not a hippy!

Neither nationalist nor unionist am I

Gingko

old hippy wrote: »

Neither nationalist nor unionist am I

You don't have to be nationalist or unionist to accept that Ireland is one big island and what happens in the north effects the south and vice versa? I have family north and south and we share the same land. The north is not a separate entity by any stretch of the imagination.

bobbysands81

krissovo wrote: »

This statement just shows you are talking complete B/S

You have no idea and yet you spout these false extreme statements. Begging bowl - now you are taking the piss.

If the British Government looked after their 'heroes' then they wouldn't need to sell poppies to make money to distribute to their fallen. Not sure what's so extreme about that.

bobbysands81

Don't fret folks the EDL are on the case with FIFA.

2 EDL (or EdL as it now seems to be) members have clambered onto the roof and are holding their own little protest. They want to have the right to wear the poppy on their jerseys in their match against Spain.

Is this once more a case of Britannia waiving the rules?!

old hippy

Gingko wrote: »

You don't have to be nationalist or unionist to accept that Ireland is one big island and what happens in the north effects the south and vice versa? I have family north and south and we share the same land. The north is not a separate entity by any stretch of the imagination.

I had family there, sure. In fact, some of my roots are entwined there. But I don't see it as having any bearing on my Ireland.

Different country.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Can you tell me when 'the Irish' or 'Ireland' have bombed Britain please.

That's quite a startling accusation you're throwing out there considering Britain has been resposible for the deaths of countless Irish men and women on Irish soil throughout the centuries... why aren't you outraged about that?

Have you been living under a rock for the last 40 years? You've never heard of the bomb attacks at Manchester, Birmingham, Guildford, Warrington, Deal and of course the ones at Canary Wharf, Bishopsgate, Ealing, Harrods, Hyde Park and the BBC.

They were all carried out by the IRISH Republican Army, so I don't think it is too much of a leap of faith to think that it was an Irish person who carried them out.

You probably aren't aware also that Bobby Sands was a member of the same organisation.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Don't fret folks the EDL are on the case with FIFA.

2 EDL (or EdL as it now seems to be) members have clambered onto the roof and are holding their own little protest. They want to have the right to wear the poppy on their jerseys in their match against Spain.

Is this once more a case of Britannia waiving the rules?!

Aah the EDL, Englands answer to Eirigi.

Complete brainless can't wait to be outraged mindless twats.

Gingko

old hippy wrote: »

I had family there, sure. In fact, some of my roots are entwined there. But I don't see it as having any bearing on my Ireland.

Different country.

Yes and like I said, your a hippy? Lands without borders? Think I'm obviously more of a hippy then you? :P

skregs

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No British person has ever carried out atrocities on you or anybody you know.

Speak for yourself, you fool. It's still less than a hundred years since the Easter Rising and the War of Independence. Lots of people had grandparents/great grandparents involved in it.