British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

All I have tried to do is show a poster called Bobbysands up as a hypocrite.

Tried but failed mo chara.

old hippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Tried but failed mo chara.

I have to say, his book (written on loo roll?) whilst in prison is quite a moving read. Still, he wouldn't be the type of person you'd want round for tea.

basillarkin

Trotter wrote: »

My great grandfather and his father fought in WW1 because the men around them were joining. None of them had much money and it was the chance to send some cash home to the family.

From listening carefully to stories my Grandfather has told me, I honestly think that we can't transplant today's standards, knowledge or situation onto a day in 1913/14 and say its comparable.

Most joined for money, food, clothing, and many younger men for a sense of adventure. I doubt any of them knew what they were actually getting into.

not forgetting British propaganda

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

How would you approach a situation where the forces of law and order (RUC /UDR /British army) were engaged in the very things you condemn ? "cold blooded murder and the deliberate targeting of civilians?"

Both directly (with effective legal impunity) & indirectly via collusion with loyalist sectarian death squads ? Why is it that people like you only ever condemn one side of that conflict ? Ignoring the root causes & the context is pointless in terms of seeking a better understanding and progressing from entrenched positions.

People have different views on it. He isn't just going to listen to Republican propaganda and believe it all.

Richard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, I said the Irish bombed Britain, and we all know that Irish people have (as would your name sake if he hadn't been caught, so don't get all ****ing moral about it).

"The Irish" did not bomb Britain.

Some Irish people planted bombs in Britain.

There is a world of difference.

People should also draw distinctions between actions of British people and "the British"

Dyr

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Never wrong? Even when that so called fighting back involves cold blooded murder and the deliberate targeting of civilians?

How can that be wrong? Isn't that what you've been wearing your poppy for all these years?

Clareboy

No (I'm Irish)

I will be wearing my poppy tomorrow with pride in honour of all those brave Irish men who faught and died on the battlefields of Europe, regardless of which country they were fighting for.

bobbysands81

KeithAFC wrote: »

People have different views on it. He isn't just going to listen to Republican propaganda and believe it all.

Well if I'm telling lies then let's hear where they are?!

bobbysands81

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You seem outraged at the fact that a few bombs have gone off in England killing a small number of people, do you not share the same outrage towards the terror that your country has waged on Ireland killing untold amounts?

FrattonFred, did you ever answer this question? I've asked it a few times but i haven't seen an answer to it yet.

54kroc

No (I'm Irish)

Clareboy wrote: »

I will be wearing my poppy tomorrow with pride in honour of all those brave Irish men who faught and died on the battlefields of Europe, regardless of which country they were fighting for.

Me too.

stoneill

No (I'm Irish)

I was 10 years old when I came to this astonishing realisation, I hope other can come to the same realisation.

The Brits, English or any other term you want to use did not oppressed Ireland for 800 years.
The rich oppressed the poor.
Nationality, religion or any other distinction has nothing to do with it.
Money and Power. That is all.

When the people of Ireland were being thrown off their land, the people of England were being forced to work down coal mines, at six years old, 12 hours a day, or in cotton mills, or steel yards, or what ever industry you care to think off.

The English did not oppress Ireland - The rich oppress the poor.
And it is still happening, just look at how the banks, investors, bondholders and developers are being treated, then look at your own family circumstances when trying to provide some type of christmas for them.

Many Irish men gave their lives in the misguided attempt to make the world a better place for all future generations.
Wear your poppy, wear it with pride, and never forget the sacrifice that was made, a sacrifice that this current generation would never be brave enough or selfless enough to ever make.

Leroy Lita

dont know why any self respecting Irish person would wear the poppy. the british army was and always will be a bunch of c.unts!!

celtictiger32

Your last sentence is worrying. Killing civies is never fighting back against a bully.

[/QUOTE]


plenty of civies killed by the bully...........

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Clareboy wrote: »

I will be wearing my poppy tomorrow with pride in honour of all those brave Irish men who faught and died on the battlefields of Europe, regardless of which country they were fighting for.

Me too, and for those of you who missed RTE's Nationwide Poppy programme, here is the link . . . http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120885

The Scientician

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Where can you buy 'em in Dublin?

R P McMurphy

The Scientician wrote: »

Where can you buy 'em in Dublin?

Dolphin's Barn but are usually refined

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

stoneill wrote: »

I was 10 years old when I came to this astonishing realisation, I hope other can come to the same realisation.

The Brits, English or any other term you want to use did not oppressed Ireland for 800 years.
The rich oppressed the poor.
Nationality, religion or any other distinction has nothing to do with it.
Money and Power. That is all.

When the people of Ireland were being thrown off their land, the people of England were being forced to work down coal mines, at six years old, 12 hours a day, or in cotton mills, or steel yards, or what ever industry you care to think off.

The English did not oppress Ireland - The rich oppress the poor.
And it is still happening, just look at how the banks, investors, bondholders and developers are being treated, then look at your own family circumstances when trying to provide some type of christmas for them.

Many Irish men gave their lives in the misguided attempt to make the world a better place for all future generations.
Wear your poppy, wear it with pride, and never forget the sacrifice that was made, a sacrifice that this current generation would never be brave enough or selfless enough to ever make.

you will not get any thanks from many republicans for telling how it was in england,even children under nine were chained to the cotten mills,so they would not wander off,many were maimed or died,a irishman campained and changed the law,so children under nine were not a allowed to be worked by those victorian masters,who was this irishman ?patrick bronte,nowt to do with the poppy,but well

bobbysands81

getz wrote: »

you will not get any thanks from many republicans for telling how it was in england,even children under nine were chained to the cotten mills,so they would not wander off,many were maimed or died,a irishman campained and changed the law,so children under nine were not a allowed to be worked by those victorian masters,who was this irishman ?patrick bronte,nowt to do with the poppy,but well

What's that got to do with Republicanism? You think I'm going to stand up for an evil person just because he's Irish?

There's an old saying in Ireland... An English boss is a bastard, an Irish one even worse.

I fully agree that the 'rich man' puts the 'poor man' in his/her place and that's one of the main reasons that I believe Unionists will eventually turn around and realise that they've been screwed over by the Brits as well.

paddyandy

No (I'm Irish)

Had Hitler won we Irish were not regarded much by him if at all..our ports though...We should not forget it when thinking about ww2.

bobbysands81

paddyandy wrote: »

Had Hitler won we Irish were not regarded much by him if at all..our ports though...We should not forget it when thinking about ww2.

We have collective amnesia when talking about this as to what actually happened this country at the hands of the Brits in the previous 800 years..

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What's that got to do with Republicanism? You think I'm going to stand up for an evil person just because he's Irish?

There's an old saying in Ireland... An English boss is a bastard, an Irish one even worse.

I fully agree that the 'rich man' puts the 'poor man' in his/her place and that's one of the main reasons that I believe Unionists will eventually turn around and realise that they've been screwed over by the Brits as well.

Rich bastards like Thomas McFeely?

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

We have collective amnesia when talking about this as to what actually happened this country at the hands of the Brits in the previous 800 years..

Selective amnesia is the phrase you are looking for.

Go read the history forum, Irish history is not as black and white as you like to think.

baltimore sun

No (I'm Irish)

Wearing the poppy means you support the actions of monsters like this, http://www.thejournal.ie/soldier-who-kept-body-parts-of-murdered-afghans-as-trophies-found-guilty-276586-Nov2011/

paddyandy

No (I'm Irish)

"OH give us our country to rule over it our selves" Well fellow Paddies that was the call for centuries.Whaddda ya tink about the mess we made of it???Can't blame anybody else after 80 years?

Fratton Fred

baltimore sun wrote: »

Wearing the poppy means you support the actions of monsters like this, http://www.thejournal.ie/soldier-who-kept-body-parts-of-murdered-afghans-as-trophies-found-guilty-276586-Nov2011/

What? No it doesn't. Where did you get that notion from?

Step23

No (I'm Irish)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What? No it doesn't. Where did you get that notion from?

Was also thinking that myself. I note the soldier is the article was also American. I don't see the relevance to the initial tread.

Doc Ruby

paddyandy wrote: »

"OH give us our country to rule over it our selves" Well fellow Paddies that was the call for centuries.Whaddda ya tink about the mess we made of it???

Not too bad in fairness. We'd have been doing alright if that Lenihan hadn't gone beyond his mandate and done the deal with the banks, for which he and his party were clinically dismembered by the electorate. As for the Greens, they've gone into the recycling bin. And even with that we're still in pretty good shape, all things considered.

We wouldn't be the first country to have voted in a bad government, nor the last.

paddyandy

No (I'm Irish)

We voted in a bad government..when was the good one??????

Doc Ruby

paddyandy wrote: »

We voted in a bad government..when was the good one??????

You can point to the good and bad of any government. The particular incident I'm referring to is the blanket guarantee which resulted in FF being all but disintegrated, an unprecedented event.

So what sort of a job have we made of it, not bad on the balance, a few hiccups aside.

Laois_Man

This thread is daft. Not least because wearing the poppy is not out of rememberance at all. It is a charity, like Daffodil day here, but the money goes to the Royal British Legion to help the Armed Forces for injured soldiers and relatives of the dead to give them financial help. It has a lot less to do with commerating the so called British Empire than it does supporting those involved in the 2 Iraq wars and Afghanistan!

Step23

No (I'm Irish)

It is a charity, like Daffodil day here, but the money goes to the Royal British Legion

And the money raised here in the Republic goes to Irish soldiers who have served in the British army and the families of soldiers who have died/been killed.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Good to see the service men and women giving a minutes silence to the fallen volunteers. RIP.

R P McMurphy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Good to see the service men and women giving a minutes silence to the fallen volunteers. RIP.

What about those that were conscripted?

old hippy

R P McMurphy wrote: »

What about those that were conscripted?

Now that was a tragedy. Ever see Alan Bleasdale's drama (based on the true story of WW1 mutineer, Percy Topliss) "The Monocled Mutineer"?

Really brings home the madness of conflict.

Laois_Man

Step23 wrote: »

And the money raised here in the Republic goes to Irish soldiers who have served in the British army and the families of soldiers who have died/been killed.

I'm merely pointing out that the entire pretext of the thread is false.

Fratton Fred

old hippy wrote: »

Now that was a tragedy. Ever see Alan Bleasdale's drama (based on the true story of WW1 mutineer, Percy Topliss) "The Monocled Mutineer"?

Really brings home the madness of conflict.

And that is why remembrance day in Britain is so important.

Forgetting for a minute the RBL poppy, the actual act of remembrance is significant because 600,000 conscripted men (conscripted, not volunteers) lost their lives.

When you add in the numbers of conscripts from France, Germany, Austria/Hungary and Russia there were literally millions of people sent to fight a pointless war who didn't come home.

ejmaztec

R P McMurphy wrote: »

What about those that were conscripted?

He must be repeating himself now, because I seem to remember asking him the same question a couple of thousand posts ago.

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

He must be repeating himself now, because I seem to remember asking him the same question a couple of thousand posts ago.

I believe he is having a little chuckle at the thoughts of Irish people commemorating the UVF.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

I believe he is having a little chuckle at the thoughts of Irish people commemorating the UVF.

I believe people should be allowed to commemorate who they want. I remember all service men and women.

Morlar

KeithAFC wrote: »

I believe people should be allowed to commemorate who they want. I remember all service men and women.

At least twice in this thread you have conspicously, pointedly referenced remembering the 'volunteers'.

I believe you are referring to the Ulster Volunteer Force.

When you repeatedly refer to remembering the Volunteers are you referring to the UVF or not ? Yes or no.

ejmaztec

Morlar wrote: »

At least twice in this thread you have conspicously, pointedly referenced remembering the 'volunteers'.

I believe you are referring to the Ulster Volunteer Force.

When you repeatedly refer to remembering the Volunteers are you referring to the UVF or not ? Yes or no.

A big red hand would make a real mess of a lapel.

helm09

There were lots of Irish that fought in world war and were proud to do so their relatives should wear one if they want too..

Morlar

helm09 wrote: »

There were lots of Irish that fought in world war and were proud to do so their relatives should wear one if they want too..

You don't need a Royal British Legion Poppy to commemorate the Irish who fell in World War One.

The problem with the poppy is that it is not just about WWI it also commemorates the British army who suppressed the population in Northern Ireland in recent years as well as in Ireland during (for example) the Irish War of Independence.

Offhand I can't think of another country which would engage in commemorating an army of occupation which committed such atrocities against the local population throughout history right up to very recent times.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

At least twice in this thread you have conspicously, pointedly referenced remembering the 'volunteers'.

I believe you are referring to the Ulster Volunteer Force.

When you repeatedly refer to remembering the Volunteers are you referring to the UVF or not ? Yes or no.

All volunteers of WW1 and WW2.

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Rich bastards like Thomas McFeely?

Again... you think I'm going to stick up for someone just because their from the same broad political ideology that I am?

Pathetic.

Fratton Fred

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Again... you think I'm going to stick up for someone just because their from the same broad political ideology that I am?

Pathetic.

Pathetic, but amusing none the less.

bobbysands81

KeithAFC wrote: »

I believe people should be allowed to commemorate who they want. I remember all service men and women.

As do I. However, will you join me and please take some time out of your day today to remember these poor souls?


http://i41.tinypic.com/24fb9xf.jpg

[Edit - Anyone know how I post the pic straight to here rather than the link?]

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Pathetic, but amusing none the less.

What's pathetic about it?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

As do I. However, will you join me and please take some time out of your day today to remember these poor souls?


http://i41.tinypic.com/24fb9xf.jpg

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=Loyalist+victims+mural&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=923&tbm=isch&tbnid=GDTqJXx3-nB1FM:&imgrefurl=http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php%3F2377579-Hey-Motorik-tell-us-about-these-quot-paramilitary-murals-quot-in-Northern-Ireland.&docid=q834F9oUeLTweM&imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/NI_murals_Rights.jpg/800px-NI_murals_Rights.jpg&w=800&h=536&ei=flC9Tqy5O82x8QPRgrGSBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=176&vpy=156&dur=2042&hovh=184&hovw=274&tx=124&ty=87&sig=102490806843139901456&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=185&start=0&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

This would only go around in circles. I think we should keep it on topic.

InTheTrees

Well at least we should all be able to appreciate a good poem.

Written by a canadian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_x0M5y-EWo