British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Snickers Man

LordSutch wrote: »

Well according to the RTEs Nationwide programme some 50,000 Irish men perished in the Great War, this is mentioned two Minutes into the programme, and then at (7 mins, 30 seconds). They are emphatic, it was 50,000 Irish dead. < Watch, listen, and learn!
.

This is slightly off topic but it is actually worth teasing out. The figure of 50,000 is bandied around because that is roughly the number of names recorded in the Irish War Record. But most serious students of the topic consider this to be an exaggeration.

The Irish War Record is a list of men known to have been born in Ireland and/or to have served in an Irish regiment who were killed in World War One.

The problem is that there were many men who served in Irish regiments but who had little or no connection with Ireland. They were recruits or conscripts from Britain who were attached to whichever regiment was most in need of reinforcements.

This is especially true of the regular batallions of those regiments who were largely wiped out in the first year of the war, and also of many of those batallions' soldiers who joined up in the last two years of the war.

In the interim, there was a huge influx of local Irish soldiers who joined the three "Irish" divisions (actually one was "Ulster") in the wake of Kitchener's initial recruitment driveafter war broke out. The 36th Ulster Division was essentially the Ulster Volunteer force with different cap badges. Likewise, the 16th Irish Division was largely comprised of the Irish Volunteers who answered Redmond's call.

The 10th Irish Division, which served at Gallipoli, was predominantly but not completely Irish, made up of men from north and south. It included batallions from "southern" regiments like the Dublin and Munster Fusiliers, Connaught Rangers and Leinster Regiment as well as "Northern" regiments like the Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Irish Rifles. But as the war proceeded and batallions and brigades were swapped in and out, it lost much of its Irish character. By the end of the war, it was essentially an Indian Division.

Among the names of men who died with Irish regiments in the 10th Division are the likes of Allott, Axe, Bettenson, Cuckson, Gainard, Pepler and Wragg. These names (and there are many others) do not appear anywhere in the 1911 Irish Census, which is searchable online. Not only they but also their entire extended family, or at least those with their surname did not live in Ireland three years before the war broke out. One must assume that these men were not Irish at all.

The best guess, and it is only a guess, of many who study this seriously is now about 35,000. I believe even Kevin Myers quotes this as the more accurate figure.

A Dub in Glasgo

philologos wrote: »

I remember all who died at war, irrespective of nation. That includes all who have done wrong as well as those whom have done right.

Do you do that by wearing all their commemorative symbols or do you claim to do that by just wearing the red poppy?

LH Pathe

A rousing tribute to all the junkies that were drafted into heroin addiction.

MANDATORY ... suicide.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Snickers Man wrote: »

The best guess, and it is only a guess, of many who study this seriously is now about 35,000. I believe even Kevin Myers quotes this as the more accurate figure.

So now we are down to arguing as to which figure is correct. Either it was 35,000 Irish men killed in the Great War, or it was 50,000. Either figure is truly shocking in my opinion, one group of historians (and Island Bridge) who keep the records claim 50,000 Irish dead, and the others claim closer to 35,000, but which ever way you look at it, that is an awful lot of Irish men who died on the poppy fields in the Great War, I'm sure you'd agree.

PS: The service in St Patricks Cathedral was as always very moving & sobering, and regarding the main topic of this thread, Yes there were many poppies worn by all ages in the Cathedral today, poppy wreaths were laid as usual too . . . . .

nice_very

I have never, will never wear or support the "poppy" those Irishmen who died in WW1 were used as cannon fodder borne out of a necessity to earn a wage to feed their families.. brought about by theft of resources from this island.

Those men should have fought (if they so wanted to fight) against the british occupation and opression of OUR island in 1916, before and after and ever since.

the poppy is just another symbol of how "the empire" tried to take as much territory/resources/wealth as they could. It is a symbol of shame with a long long shadow

such a shame that our new president's first appearance was what he did today.

Snickers Man

LordSutch wrote: »

which ever way you look at it, that is an awful lot of Irish men who died on the poppy fields in the Great War, I'm sure you'd agree.

Of course I agree. Can't argue with fact. Why do you think I wouldn't?

LordSutch wrote: »

PS: The service in St Patricks Cathedral was as always very moving & sobering, and regarding the main topic of this thread, Yes there were many poppies worn by all ages in the Cathedral today, poppy wreaths were laid as usual too . . . . .

Fair play to President Michael D for going and acknowledging that so many Irishmen died in the first world war. And fair play to him too for not wearing a poppy and thereby affirming that the Irish state, of which he is head, has by definition a subtly different relationship to both the British army and those who served in two world wars than other countries do.

Noffles

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Still sprouting your vitriol I see... is it not time for the next thread against the dreadful Brits... Is there not something about xmas or the new year or valentines day due... the amount of chips on shoulders in this thread would of staved off the potato famine!

Fratton Fred

nice_very wrote: »

I have never, will never wear or support the "poppy" those Irishmen who died in WW1 were used as cannon fodder borne out of a necessity to earn a wage to feed their families.. brought about by theft of resources from this island.

Those men should have fought (if they so wanted to fight) against the british occupation and opression of OUR island in 1916, before and after and ever since.

the poppy is just another symbol of how "the empire" tried to take as much territory/resources/wealth as they could. It is a symbol of shame with a long long shadow

such a shame that our new president's first appearance was what he did today.

That is an incredibly uneducated post.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh sure you are Irish :rolleyes: An Irish person supporting the present British Armed forces, not Irish.

Wear your poppy as a symbol of British National Pride as Cameron said.

Amazing how the Republican movement works. An Irish person who wears the Poppy is NOW not Irish and yet the great lie the Republican movement make is that Unionists are Irish.

It is classic Republican speak.

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

KeithAFC wrote: »

Amazing how the Republican movement works. An Irish person who wears the Poppy is NOW not Irish and yet the great lie the Republican movement make is that Unionists are Irish.

It is classic Republican speak.

The 'great lie', could you explain please?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Madam wrote: »

The 'great lie', could you explain please?

The Republican movement tries to force a culture and an ethnicity on a people who aren't from the same stock as them. And yet when some one (an Irish person) does wear a Poppy, they aren't Irish. It is a rather odd logic.

old hippy

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Republican movement tries to force a culture and an ethnicity on a people who aren't from the same stock as them. And yet when some one (an Irish person) does wear a Poppy, they aren't Irish. It is a rather odd logic.

We all come from the same stock - Africa.

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Republican movement tries to force a culture and an ethnicity on a people who aren't from the same stock as them. And yet when some one (an Irish person) does wear a Poppy, they aren't Irish. It is a rather odd logic.

I see, but Keith what exactly is Unionist culture? Are'nt we all a mish mash or cultures/stock - I know I am;)

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Madam wrote: »

I see, but Keith what exactly is Unionist culture? Are'nt we all a mish mash or cultures/stock - I know I am;)

I wasn't even referring to Unionism as such. But ethnicity. Some one who is genuinely Irish and wears the Poppy is now not an Irish person according to some one on this thread which is rather amazing when you think about it.

old hippy

KeithAFC wrote: »

I wasn't even referring to Unionism as such. But ethnicity. Some one who is genuinely Irish and wears the Poppy is now not an Irish person according to some one on this thread which is rather amazing when you think about it.

People should be allowed to be who they want to be & not force others to assimilate if they don't want to

efb

My bf had family who died in WW1 and he had a lovely poppy pin- I bought one in London Saturday and wore it out. We watched the commemoraton on Sunday Morning together.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

old hippy wrote: »

People should be allowed to be who they want to be & not force others to assimilate if they don't want to

I agree. Hopefully they will realise that one day.

old hippy

efb wrote: »

My bf had family who died in WW1 and he had a lovely poppy pin- I bought one in London Saturday and wore it out. We watched the commemoraton on Sunday Morning together.

Good for you. I wasn't fussed but have no problem with those that do. Just don't try and make me wear such a fashion no no

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

KeithAFC wrote: »

I wasn't even referring to Unionism as such. But ethnicity. Some one who is genuinely Irish and wears the Poppy is now not an Irish person according to some one on this thread which is rather amazing when you think about it.

It is amazing and amusing too:rolleyes:

I'd like to see any of them come up to my face and accuse me of not being Irish - I'm afraid the red haired temper would show them different:mad:

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Republican movement tries to force a culture and an ethnicity on a people who aren't from the same stock as them.

Only one thing could be said to that.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Only one thing could be said to that.

Don't know if that was supposed to be funny?

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Only one thing could be said to that.

Titter I did:)

efb

old hippy wrote: »

Good for you. I wasn't fussed but have no problem with those that do. Just don't try and make me wear such a fashion no no

He didn't ask me to, I was buying the round in the welly- saw the poppys for sale and bought one. I don't care who dissaproves or otherwise. My years of letting bigoted opinion control me are over. (Thats not directed at you OH, I get the humour in your post)

sensibleken

I think we should all just have a group hug and try and all get along.

Judgement Day

And for the anti-poppy facists there's always November 2012 to look forward when we can revisit this thread.

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

Judgement Day wrote: »

And for the anti-poppy facists there's always November 2012 to look forward when we can revisit this thread.

Or indeed the Poppy facists;)

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Talking of poppy facists, 'poppy bling' now seems to be the order of the day on UK entertainment shows. Take X factor for example, with diamond studded poppies, poppy rings, big poppies, & shiny poppies too. I wonder how many of the contestants would have a clue what the poppy really stands for, or what its history is? Personally I think its a disgrace the way the poppy is being hyped up & bandied about on the TV like the 'Pop star' of symbols. The poppy is not meant to be all shiny & in your face of a Saturday night, it is meant to be a somber symbol to remember the dead & the bereaved, & its not meant to be a fashion accessory on bloody X Factor :mad:

Seanchai

old hippy wrote: »

People should be allowed to be who they want to be & not force others to assimilate if they don't want to

How very rich coming from people who are cheerleaders for the footsoldiers of the very British Empire which has spent centuries forcing natives to assimilate to British ways.

There's some amount of hypocritical rubbish being spouted here by the apologists of British foreign policy and all its fanaticism against indigenous communities across the world, most particularly against the native Irish whose culture and independence these "heroes" of poppy day have trounced on and oppressed for centuries. This poppy stuff is British flag-waving tribalism at its most jingoistic. Expecting Irish people to respect people who commemorate these footsoldiers of the British Empire is historically laughable; it's expecting them to respect admirers of the family rapist. Nobody has presented a single morally solid reason why supporters of British dominance/occupation/control/oppression/suppression in Ireland should be honoured by Irish people. What moral good did they do?

Show me your "heroes" and I'll tell you what your nation is. But the likelihood of any of these poppy ceremonies pausing to remember the innumerable victims of British state savagery across the world for the past few centuries is zero. Such is the bigoted, anti-Irish tribal nature of these British poppy "commemorations".

Seanchai

efb wrote: »

I ... saw the poppys for sale and bought one.... My years of letting bigoted opinion control me are over.

Er, clearly not.

Galwayguy35

Judgement Day wrote: »

And for the anti-poppy facists there's always November 2012 to look forward when we can revisit this thread.

So anyone that doesnt wear a symbol of the British Empire is a facist? Im no facist but i would never wear a poppy.

Fratton Fred

Seanchai wrote: »

How very rich coming from people who are cheerleaders for the footsoldiers of the very British Empire which has spent centuries forcing natives to assimilate to British ways.

There's some amount of hypocritical rubbish being spouted here by the apologists of British foreign policy and all its fanaticism against indigenous communities across the world, most particularly against the native Irish whose culture and independence these "heroes" of poppy day have trounced on and oppressed for centuries. This poppy stuff is British flag-waving tribalism at its most jingoistic. Expecting Irish people to respect people who commemorate these footsoldiers of the British Empire is historically laughable; it's expecting them to respect admirers of the family rapist. Nobody has presented a single morally solid reason why supporters of British dominance/occupation/control/oppression/suppression in Ireland should be honoured by Irish people. What moral good did they do?

Show me your "heroes" and I'll tell you what your nation is. But the likelihood of any of these poppy ceremonies pausing to remember the innumerable victims of British state savagery across the world for the past few centuries is zero. Such is the bigoted, anti-Irish tribal nature of these British poppy "commemorations".

Oh shut up.

Latchy

No (I'm Irish)

I have a metal poppy pin badge which is an option to wearing the larger one .

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

There's nothing anti-Irish about poppy commemorations. In fact they aren't had with Irish people specifically in mind but rather those who have fallen at war. I doubt the people I've seen in London wearing them have worn them with the specific intention of being anti-Irish.

Perhaps your POV is just a bit much?

Latchy

No (I'm Irish)

philologos wrote: »

I doubt the people I've seen in London wearing them have worn them with the specific intention of being anti-Irish.

Many of whom are Irish to .

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Indeed. It's an absurd argument.

InTheTrees

Seanchai wrote: »

But the likelihood of any of these poppy ceremonies pausing to remember the innumerable victims of British state savagery across the world for the past few centuries is zero. Such is the bigoted, anti-Irish tribal nature of these British poppy "commemorations".

You should come over to the USA for July 4th. You'd love it.

There's parades all over the country to commemorate the defeat of the british.

Maybe Ireland should have some kind of ceremony like that? Instead of people in the republic obsessing over what the brits do or dont do.

Seanchai

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh shut up.

:rolleyes: You could, of course, always go to a British forum if you're just expecting everybody to swallow this poppy stuff and dress over the barbarism of your country's empire, which they fought for. Home truths, eh.

Seanchai

philologos wrote: »

There's nothing anti-Irish about poppy commemorations.

Given that, according to the Royal British Legion which organises the poppy commemorations, that poppy honours all those who fought for England/Britain in all of Britain's wars, including its innumerable wars against the Irish people throughout the centuries you'd be so unequivocally wrong with this claim. The implementers and maintainers of British rule in Ireland, and in other people's countries across the world, are being honoured by the Royal British Legion's red poppy. This is an indisputable fact.

philologos wrote: »

In fact they aren't had with Irish people specifically in mind but rather those who have fallen at war.

Those, that is, who were on the British side only, the side which was occupying other people's lands and exploiting their resources. Not exactly the sort of people an impartial outsider who puts humanity above glorifying his tribe would want to honour.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Again Seanchai - if you actually read my post you'll see my point is pretty clear. Poppy commemorations are not had in reference to Ireland, but rather in the reference to war.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether or not you (as gurramok already has done) claims that I'm not truly Irish as a result.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: You could, of course, always go to a British forum if you're just expecting everybody to swallow this poppy stuff and dress over the barbarism of your country's empire, which they fought for. Home truths, eh.

"What's British about the poppy"? said the two Irish UN soldiers on the RTE Nationwide clip I posted earlier in this thread.

No 'one country' owns the poppy as a symbol to commemorate the war dead, it belongs to all of us.

gurramok

LordSutch wrote: »

"What's British about the poppy"? said the two Irish UN soldiers said on the RTE Nationwide clip I posted earlier in this thread.

No 'one country' owns the poppy as a symbol to commemorate the war dead.

Cameron(your Prime Minister) said its a symbol of British pride.

Seanchai

InTheTrees wrote: »

There's parades all over the country to commemorate the defeat of the british.

Maybe Ireland should have some kind of ceremony like that? Instead of people in the republic obsessing over what the brits do or dont do.

I don't think we need to commemorate the defeat of the British in order to object to the glorification of British imperialist savagery, the destruction of entire civilisations, which is being sanitised by all this poppy stuff. With all this glorification of their military past, the British are so far from having a healthy, honest relationship with their past it is terrifying.

Given that the poppy brigade is trying to sanitise their Empire's treatment of people, including the Irish, and expecting Irish people to wear their poppy commemorating their dead, it is obviously the right of an Irish person to call them on this attempt at rewriting history, this attempt to guilt the natives into joining them by commemorating the very oppressors of the said natives and their country over centuries.

Sunnyisland

sensibleken wrote: »

I think we should all just have a group hug and try and all get along.

Never, I say Never

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Cameron(your Prime Minister) said its a symbol of British pride.

David Cameron says a lot of things. Some see it as British pride. Some don't. Its all about opinions.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Cameron said its a symbol of British pride.

I'm sure it is a symbol of British pride, but that doesnt negate the fact that the poppy as a symbol is used by many nations all over the globe, including Britain & Ireland. The multi ethnic poppy wearing congragation in St patricks Cathedral Dublin yesterday (13th Nov) is testament to the fact that the poppy is not just a British symbol.

ejmaztec

Are we on the 2012 poppy thread already?

Judgement Day

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So anyone that doesnt wear a symbol of the British Empire is a facist? Im no facist but i would never wear a poppy.

No, you just have a problem understanding the Queen's English.

Son Of A Vidic

Judgement Day wrote: »

And for the anti-poppy facists there's always November 2012 to look forward when we can revisit this thread.

Are you seriously accusing these people of being fascists? So people are fascists if they don't subscribe to the poppy and the glorification of the British Army? I understand and respect why some might wish to wear a poppy and commemorate their dead. I also find it commendable to see the respectful remembrance of those who died so long ago.

But you must also respect the right of people who do not share these sentiments. The British army carried out some shocking butchery across the globe, all in 'glorious' pursuit of empire. So it's easy to see why many find it and any symbolism associated with it as being very distasteful.

Judgement Day

This is positively my last reply in this thread as I have no desire to see it rumble on until next November. The anti-poppy fascists that I refer to are those that dispute the right of those of us who choose to wear the poppy, to do so. I don't want anybody who doesn't want to wear a poppy to do so - why would I? As Lord Sutch has already mentioned in this thread, the corporate forcing of assorted media personalities to wear to poppy is disgusting, especially since half them don't even know what it commemorates. Perhaps BBC presenters as the State broadcaster should require their staff to but that's it. The sight of various wannabes wearing outrageous versions of the poppy on the X Factor etc is quite stomach-churning. Live and let live, and for God's sake lets drop it for this year - it's Christmas next.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Are you seriously accusing these people of being fascists? So people are fascists if they don't subscribe to the poppy and the glorification of the British Army? I understand and respect why some might wish to wear a poppy and commemorate their dead. I also find it commendable to see the respectful remembrance of those who died so long ago.

But you must also respect the right of people who do not share these sentiments. The British army carried out some shocking butchery across the globe, all in 'glorious' pursuit of empire. So it's easy to see why many find it and any symbolism associated with it as being very distasteful.

To people in the Republican movement perhaps. To the vast majority of people, they wear it or don't wear it and just get on with life. It is always made a big deal of because some people just can't stand that some wear a poppy.