British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

ejmaztec

westdub15 wrote: »

Competition to get in is tough at the moment because of the recession, the traditional recruitment ground is and always has been the vast council estates throughout the country. I have a lot of respect for British soldiers but building them up to be supermen or constantly referring to them as heroes rings of fascism tbh. How does joining the Army turn an otherwise normal man into a hero? They mold you into a machine and drill responses into you in training. That does not make anyone braver than another person.

I wouldn't imagine that any cowards would volunteer to join any army anywhere on the planet, unless it was the Salvation Army.

Fratton Fred

westdub15 wrote: »

Competition to get in is tough at the moment because of the recession, the traditional recruitment ground is and always has been the vast council estates throughout the country. I have a lot of respect for British soldiers but building them up to be supermen or constantly referring to them as heroes rings of fascism tbh. How does joining the Army turn an otherwise normal man into a hero? They mold you into a machine and drill responses into you in training. That does not make anyone braver than another person.

That's horse**** to be honest.

The majority of soldiers come from normal working class backgrounds because the majority of people have normal working class backgrounds.

You could argue that the normal recruiting ground for a construction company or manufacturing company is the same place.

Leftist

Our country is an embarrasment those who died in the world wars. Fighting Nazism or previously dying in trenches hoping we would get home rule.
But because ff and the church systematically lied through children's education we have a nation of mouth breathers than see aknowledging this history as some kind of treachery. Raised by fools.

westdub15

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's horse**** to be honest.

The majority of soldiers come from normal working class backgrounds because the majority of people have normal working class backgrounds.

You could argue that the normal recruiting ground for a construction company or manufacturing company is the same place.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmdfence/63/6306.htm

41. There is a perception that the Army recruits most of its soldiers from the least privileged socio-economic groups. MoD argues that there is little evidence to substantiate that view; but this is, at least in part, because currently MoD does not collect data on recruits' socio-economic background.[72] However, MoD did provide us with the results of a survey relating to Army recruits from the Cardiff area between 1998 and 2000. That study found that the majority of recruits came from a 'broken home' or 'deprived background' and had left school with no qualifications.[73] Lieutenant Colonel Strutt, who produced a paper on bullying and culture shock in the Infantry, reported 32 per cent of recruits come from poor housing conditions and 45 per cent come from 'broken homes'.[74] Professor Wessely told us that some members of the Armed Forces who 'are quite clearly risky', and may come from 'somewhat dubious backgrounds', nevertheless the vast majority of them seem to do well and the military actually does very well by them.'[75] He added 'I know that is not the purpose of the Army, but it is a side effect of the Army; it does address a socially excluded group which very few other people can tackle'.[76]

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

westdub15 wrote: »

No problem with the Poppy in Britain, although the way its used at every chance by politicians attempting to show their 'patriotism' for three weeks before the eleventh of November is another issue...

Anyway, the problem with wearing the Poppy is that funds raised from the sale of the Poppy goes to the British Legion, an organization which provides support for former British veterans. A noble cause, however, this means you are supporting members of the British armed forces that served on this Island. Your money could be providing support for some of the men who participated in Bloody Sunday and countless other murders in the north. It may also tend the graves of Black and Tans who did not exactly distinguish themselves in Ireland.

Many brave Irish men (and women) from the North and South served with great distinction in the British Army, we should be proud of these and honor them but the Poppy is not the way to do it. It has been politicized by both sides of the divide. I would gladly bear an Irish Poppy provided its funds went to support the people of this Island.

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

Morlar

getz wrote: »

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

Is wearing of the poppy not also in honour of the bloody sunday paras and all members of the british army who have shot, maimed and killed scores of Irish people for generations (going back to the War of Independence up to recent years ) ?

Tiocfaidh Armani

getz wrote: »

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:

Tiocfaidh Armani

Morlar wrote: »

Is wearing of the poppy not also in honour of the bloody sunday paras and all members of the british army who have shot, maimed and killed scores of Irish people for generations (going back to the War of Independence up to recent years ) ?

It's from WWI onwards, so not for me. Too many conflicts that includes the Black and Tans. Yet some west Brits ignore all that and hang off the coat tails of WWII.

Morlar

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

It's from WWI onwards, so not for me. Too many conflicts that includes the Black and Tans. Yet some west Brits ignore all that and hang off the coat tails of WWII.

I think the Irish men who served in WW1 & WW2 should be honoured, but not in a way that involves any element of Irish people honouring the black and tans/paras, UDR, etc.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Leftist wrote: »

Our country is an embarrasment those who died in the world wars. Fighting Nazism or previously dying in trenches hoping we would get home rule.
But because ff and the church systematically lied through children's education we have a nation of mouth breathers than see aknowledging this history as some kind of treachery. Raised by fools.

A 'lefty' who wants to acknowledge and honour a largely imperialist army. What part of the poppy do we ignore? The Black and Tans? India? Kenya? Bloody Sunday? The poppy doesn't just stand for WWII, it's much more than that my 'lefty' friend:rolleyes:

Tiocfaidh Armani

Morlar wrote: »

I think the Irish men who served in WW1 & WW2 should be honoured, but not in a way that involves any element of Irish people honouring the black and tans/paras, UDR, etc.

I agree, maybe a green poppy perhaps, but that one carries a lot of baggage that I have no time for.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

westdub15 wrote: »

The men who fight in Iraq are no braver than you or me. They are doing a job that was probably the only one available to them on their council estates. Its what they signed up for, in WW1 and WW2 they were fighting for their country and freedom in general that should be honored, what are they fighting for in Iraq?

You couldn't have got it more wrong,the British Army is Diverse consisting of just as many middle class as working class people.Many people choose a career in the British army solely on the career aspect in contrast to civilian life from all classes.It just so happens that many working class choose infantry due to the low educational entry requirements,which is what we see most as opposed to the other corps,REME,RMP,Medics etc etc.A person can join the Army and leave with a degree.

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:

And people who go and live abroad and pay taxes to the nasty imperialist government who pay the wages of those nasty imperialist soldiers?

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And people who go and live abroad and pay taxes to the nasty imperialist government who pay the wages of those nasty imperialist soldiers?

I have a son here hence why I live here, not that that's any of your business.

I'm not anti any particular country, just like I despise US foreign policy and their funding of Israel, but hay I like New York so I'll go there on holiday if I fecking well like and feel like it.

If that's the best you can do, jog on with yourself:D

ejmaztec

An uncle of mine was a "mercenary" in the RAF for twenty odd years. He taught secretarial and admin staff, the murdering bastard.

Morlar

The British army record in Ireland is one of murder and oppression, why can't the sensitivity of this issue should be acknowledged by those in favour of the Poppy ?

There is no pressing need for Irish people to wear a red poppy to remember our War Dead, we can do this perfectly well in our own way, so I don't understand the need to try and push this on Irish people. It seems to be more about pushing the British Legion red Poppy than it is about remembering the Irish War Dead.

the_syco

No (I'm Irish)

I'm pretty sure the Irish government ignored them, pretended they didn't exist, so it was charities like the British Legion which helped them out.

Should we commemorate them? Probably not. But the British Legion allows people to support them.

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:

Up until when the vietnam war when it was televised, war was seen in a "romantic" view. This, coupled with the fact that families needed money got people to sign up. Various tools of propaganda (mainly posters) were used to ensure this. People who join now know for the most part that war can be ugly, but in the "good ole days" war was sometimes seen as a well paid adventure that manily men should do.

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I have a son here hence why I live here, not that that's any of your business.

I'm not anti any particular country, just like I despise US foreign policy and their funding of Israel, but hay I like New York so I'll go there on holiday if I fecking well like and feel like it.

If that's the best you can do, jog on with yourself:D

I don't really care why you're in England tbh.

Morlar

the_syco wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the Irish government ignored them, pretended they didn't exist, so it was charities like the British Legion which helped them out.

Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.

perhaps a green poppy with proceeds split half to the Defence forces and half to the micks?

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't really care why you're in England tbh.

I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.

Scottish nationalists,a great bunch of lads who love the Irish :rolleyes:

Tiocfaidh Armani

pmcmahon wrote: »

Scottish nationalists,a great bunch of lads who love the Irish :rolleyes:

They have nowt against us. I have friends who are members of the SNP and have attended their annual Bannockburn commemoration many a time. Good party and doing a good job in government, which was reflected in their whitewash of Labour in the last election.:)

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I'm not in England, the soon to be independent Scotland if polls are to be believed;)

Either way you commented on it when I made a point of someone going to another country to fight in wars and kill people. So if you don't care about something don't comment on it and be an idiot making a stupid irrelevant point.

It is as irrelevant as your commentary about mercenaries to be honest.

You moved to Scotland because it provided something you couldn't get at home, just like thousands of Irish people who have joined foreign militaries over the years.

They are no more a bunch of mercenaries than you are for moving abroad or any other people who go chasing fame and fortune on the mainland.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Considering Ireland had seen a Rising, a War of Independence and a Civil war all directly or indirectly as a result of British interference in this land then it's not a great surprise that the Irish state ignored Irish men who served in British uniform post WW1. The men who returned from the trenches for the most part had to hide their medals and some were actually blacklisted from county council employment.

Re-dressing that does not require a Red British Legion Poppy. Wearing that would also be in honour of the black and tans and bloody sunday paras & I think it's possible to remember and respect the sacrifice of Irish men during WW1 & WW2 without a red poppy.

I love the way the British get blamed for the civil war.

All those years of burning, raping, beating and mass murder by the black and tans and yet in six years they killed a fraction of the number killed in the 18 month civil war.

No wonder you want to blame someone else for it.

stewie01

why was there a civil war fred???

Fratton Fred

stewie01 wrote: »

why was there a need for a civil war fred???

Because Dev wanted to be king

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is as irrelevant as your commentary about mercenaries to be honest.

We’ re talking about Irish people going to join the British Army, they’re mercenaries so it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Please keep up, Dear.

You moved to Scotland because it provided something you couldn't get at home, just like thousands of Irish people who have joined foreign militaries over the years.

I moved to Scotland in 2004 because of a relationship I had, nothing to do with work, I was in full employment when I left Ireland, as I’ve always been and earned more money in Ireland than I have ever in Scotland. Don’t compare me with idiots who join up foreign armies to go to wars because they want the ‘buzz’ of it all because the IDF can’t offer it. Those sad pathetic war fanatics are nothing like me – thank God.

They are no more a bunch of mercenaries than you are for moving abroad or any other people who go chasing fame and fortune on the mainland

The mainland? Another Irishman with an inferiority complex.:D

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

stewie01 wrote: »

why was there a civil war fred???

because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

We’ re talking about Irish people going to join the British Army, they’re mercenaries so it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Please keep up, Dear.

I moved to Scotland in 2004 because of a relationship I had, nothing to do with work, I was in full employment when I left Ireland, as I’ve always been and earned more money in Ireland than I have ever in Scotland. Don’t compare me with idiots who join up foreign armies to go to wars because they want the ‘buzz’ of it all because the IDF can’t offer it. Those sad pathetic war fanatics are nothing like me – thank God.

They aren't mercenaries and no, the Irish defence force can provide only a small part of what a lot of people are after, even ignoring for a minute the wars the BA gets involved in.

stewie01

pmcmahon wrote: »

because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?

no please dont. your BS stinks to high heaven.

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

stewie01 wrote: »

no please dont. your BS stinks to high heaven.

the truth stinks alright.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love the way the British get blamed for the civil war.

All those years of burning, raping, beating and mass murder by the black and tans and yet in six years they killed a fraction of the number killed in the 18 month civil war.

No wonder you want to blame someone else for it.

Of course they're to blame for the civil war. The Irish people in 1918 declared what they wanted - Independence. The British denied the people what they wanted and set in place a chain of events that led to a civil war largely by them employing the sectarian tactic of partitioning a country through a sectarian head-count.

Britain respects the wishes of the majority, as they tell every one else to do when it suits them, then there's no civil war. Doing the honourable thing isn't really what they did back then though:rolleyes:

Morlar

pmcmahon wrote: »

because Ireland was built divided?,bunch of idiots from day one?,Backstabbing? shall i continue?

The reason there was a Civil War in Ireland was Britain offered the choice of a divided country, or a Total War.

Knowing it would divide the opposition so that if the War of Independence did continue they would face a weakened foe.

If the War of Independence did not continue they would hold territory.

Divide and Conquer, as ever, leaving a trail of absolute destruction behind it.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because Dev wanted to be king

You could really do with a lesson in Irish history.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They aren't mercenaries and no, the Irish defence force can provide only a small part of what a lot of people are after, even ignoring for a minute the wars the BA gets involved in.

Of course they are. You read the thing on the Irish who join the British Army on TV a few years ago? They want combat. Killing people basically. The IDF didn't offer that. What sick minds.

Hate to go all technical on you, but just to put you in your place, here's the definition of a mercenary in a dictionary....

Definition of MERCENARY
: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service




Oh dear......CLAMPED:D

Celly Smunt

No (I'm Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

The reason there was a Civil War in Ireland was Britain offered the choice of a divided country, or a Total War.

I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.

Morlar wrote: »

Knowing it would divide the opposition so that if the War of Independence did continue they would face a weakened foe.

Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy.

Tiocfaidh Armani

I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.

What books have you read? I've been a demon for books on 1916 and I've never read that. Can you point me in the direction of the books where that was even implied? They had no common goal? Eh?

Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy

Like I said, Britain caused the civil war by neglecting the wishes of the Irish people. We all know Dev was a devious so and so, that's not what we're discussing. You and your cohorts are condoning an occupying country ignoring the wishes of the people.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

pmcmahon wrote: »

I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.


Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy.

Collins must have known that too, hell the IRA at the time must have known that they weren't going to get a United Ireland. Unless they thought the Protestant Unionists would just give up?

ejmaztec

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Like I said, Britain caused the civil war by neglecting the wishes of the Irish people. We all know Dev was a devious so and so, that's not what we're discussing. You and your cohorts are condoning an occupying country ignoring the wishes of the people.

Had the British handed the entire island over, the ensuing punch-up would have made the Irish Civil War look like a slight argument.

Morlar

pmcmahon wrote: »

I'm not talking about the county Divide but the Divide within the parties and people involved,whether people like it or not from the roots of 1916 up to the end civil war it was every man for himself,

Meaningless drivel.

pmcmahon wrote: »

one example of this is how Pearse and Connolly despised each other,yet in the history books they're portrayed as best pals,fighting for the common goal,however they had no common goal.Connolly was pretty much a communist.

Connolly was a Socialist. Pearse and Connolly having differences is irrelevant. They fought together for a united Ireland and were executed for it. Churchill and Lloyd George also had their differences. That is also irrelevant.

pmcmahon wrote: »

Dev knew before Collins even went over to London there wasn't a chance of a 32 county republic,Collins was the fall guy.

You are overlooking the fact that the divide was caused by the Treaty britain forced on Ireland. The choice Britain offered was a) a Partitioned, divided Country, or b) Total War.

How you can confabulate these circumstances of british calculation into being the fault of Republicans is a mystery.

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Of course they are. You read the thing on the Irish who join the British Army on TV a few years ago? They want combat. Killing people basically. The IDF didn't offer that. What sick minds.

Hate to go all technical on you, but just to put you in your place, here's the definition of a mercenary in a dictionary....

Definition of MERCENARY
: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service




Oh dear......CLAMPED:D

You dictionary definition is inaccurate. Look up article 47 of the geneva convention, that will put you right.

Tiocfaidh Armani

ejmaztec wrote: »

Had the British handed the entire island over, the ensuing punch-up would have made the Irish Civil War look like a slight argument.

That's not why they didn't honour the wishes of the majority, though. It wouldn't have been pretty, nobody ever won their freedom the pretty way.

I'm unsure how Unionists would have reacted. What option was open anyway? British leaves and you're a small minority on the island. You can either skip off to Britain or stay and fight for what? To get the British back? That horse had long bolted.

Either way British didn't ignore the wishes of the majority as a humanitarian gesture:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

The reason there was a Civil War in Ireland was Britain offered the choice of a divided country, or a Total War. .

When?

Fratton Fred

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

That's not why they didn't honour the wishes of the majority, though. It wouldn't have been pretty, nobody ever won their freedom the pretty way.

I'm unsure how Unionists would have reacted. What option was open anyway? British leaves and you're a small minority on the island. You can either skip off to Britain or stay and fight for what? To get the British back? That horse had long bolted.

Either way British didn't ignore the wishes of the majority as a humanitarian gesture:rolleyes:

In the 1922 election, pro treaty parties won an overwhelming majority, yet their wishes were ignored and the country plunged into a bloody civil war.

Damn those Brits.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You dictionary definition is inaccurate. Look up article 47 of the geneva convention, that will put you right.

Okay the dictionary is wrong and you're right.

Tally ho, not long until the men in white coats come along now:D

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In the 1922 election, pro treaty parties won an overwhelming majority, yet their wishes were ignored and the country plunged into a bloody civil war.

Damn those Brits.

Go back a little there, not just to when it suits your agenda. 1918. Repect the wishes of the people, again NOT JUST WHEN IT SUITS YOU.

Please keep up my dear boy, you're brutal.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

That's not why they didn't honour the wishes of the majority, though. It wouldn't have been pretty, nobody ever won their freedom the pretty way.

I'm unsure how Unionists would have reacted. What option was open anyway? British leaves and you're a small minority on the island. You can either skip off to Britain or stay and fight for what? To get the British back? That horse had long bolted.

Either way British didn't ignore the wishes of the majority as a humanitarian gesture:rolleyes:

The Unionist people had been preparing for it and were willing to fight to the death to oppose it. The Irish civil war really would have looked like a picnic compared to what would have happened.

It wasn't me!

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Okay the dictionary is wrong and you're right.

Tally ho, not long until the men in white coats come along now:D

Geneva Convention which actually materially defines the term is rather more useful than a trite dictionary soundbite. Also, as to wanting to see combat, the vast majority of professional soldiers want to be tested in combat. I'll be going military after college and I want to be tested in combat at some point. I'm upper middle-class in background, extremely well educated, intelligent and certainly not from a deprived and disenfranchised section of society. I've wanted to be a soldier my entire life, and I know why I do too. You may not understand it, but people who understand the vocation are most certainly not damaged or lacking in any way.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When?

Michael Collins himself had noted that Lloyd George was threatening a "terrible and immediate war" in the event of non signing.

Which as you know, would have been a Total war as far as the population of Ireland was concerned.

What do you think was the cause of the Irish Civil War ?