British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Morlar

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Unionist people had been preparing for it and were willing to fight to the death to oppose it. The Irish civil war really would have looked like a picnic compared to what would have happened.

Yes, Keith you keep repeating that mantra in the delusion that it is either intimidating or makes you sound tough. It's neither.

My own view is that the UVF would have been utterly defeated had the IRA of that time been of a mind to do it.

Tiocfaidh Armani

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Geneva Convention which actually materially defines the term is rather more useful than a trite dictionary soundbite. Also, as to wanting to see combat, the vast majority of professional soldiers want to be tested in combat. I'll be going military after college and I want to be tested in combat at some point. I'm upper middle-class in background, extremely well educated, intelligent and certainly not from a deprived and disenfranchised section of society. I've wanted to be a soldier my entire life, and I know why I do too. You may not understand it, but people who understand the vocation are most certainly not damaged or lacking in any way.

I don't want to understand it, I volunteer at a homeless shelter (Glasgow City Mission), I'll continue to do some good with my life and not look to be another stooge for governments and because I want the 'buzz' of combat, which whatever way you dress it is killing people. You're 100% correct, I don't understand it nor do I want to.

It's always somebody else's country you get to be 'tested'. The more idiots who buy the 'dream' the more we see the likes of Iraq, but sure that's okay you got to play soliders that's the main thing?:rolleyes:

You're a lot of things indeed. Intelligent? You're wanting to chose to be cannon fodder for a vocation I'm afraid we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Michael Collins himself had noted that Lloyd George was threatening a "terrible and immediate war" in the event of non signing.

Which as you know, would have been a Total war as far as the population of Ireland was concerned.

What do you think was the cause of the Irish Civil War ?

Proof? Link?

Tiocfaidh Armani

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Proof? Link?

Honesty. Have you never read a book on that period of Irish history? You're actually asking him for a link to Lloyd George threatening terrible war on Ireland if they rejected the treaty:D

See if you're not well read on something don't debate it. Leave it to the big boys who actually went to the trouble to read up on something before they opened their gobs on it.

It wasn't me!

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

You're a lot of things indeed. Intelligent? You're wanting to chose to be cannon fodder for a vocation I'm afraid we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Intelligence isn't exactly subjective... Also, if you really think the modern western soldier is cannon fodder, you haven't a clue what soldiering is actually about or the experience. This isn't the Somme anymore.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Morlar wrote: »

Yes, Keith you keep repeating that mantra in the delusion that it is either intimidating or makes you sound tough. It's neither.

My own view is that the UVF would have been utterly defeated had the IRA of that time been of a mind to do it.

We are discussing things in an historical context here. That is what would have happened. The IRA could not defeat anyone after 30 years of war. I think the leadership of the IRA in the 80s started to realise that.

It would have been the same with the IRA in the 20s. A United Ireland was never going to be achieved by armed action then either.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Proof? Link?

Given the fact that the black and Tans and auxilliaries had been burning and pillaging their way up and down the country throughout the preceding War of Independence and were kept on a severely straining leash, committing blatant murders of innocent and unarmed people left and right & provoking international condemnation in the process. Given the context what does the threat of 'Terrible and immediate War' in the event of non signing mean to you ?

Also, you have yet to fleshed out your 'Britain is blame free' theory on the cause of the Irish Civil War.

Tiocfaidh Armani

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Intelligence isn't exactly subjective... Also, if you really think the modern western soldier is cannon fodder, you haven't a clue what soldiering is actually about or the experience. This isn't the Somme anymore.

Stooges, cannon fodder, call them what you will. I won't be crawling around the sands in fourty degree heat in Afghanistan dodging bullets. There are no noble causes left to fight because there are no noble governments out there to take the mantle - unless you happen to be oil-rich of course. But sure we don't understand and you want your bit of fun and we all know that's truly all that matters.

45% come from broken homes. I'm sure it's be a battalion of saints and scholars you'll be lining out with:D

Tiocfaidh Armani

KeithAFC wrote: »

We are discussing things in an historical context here. That is what would have happened. The IRA could not defeat anyone after 30 years of war. I think the leadership of the IRA in the 80s started to realise that.

It would have been the same with the IRA in the 20s. A United Ireland was never going to be achieved by armed action then either.

Historical context? Nationalists on the Island in 1922 were in the extreme MAJORITY. If they British respected the wishes of the people and completely pulled out your merry little minority could have fought but we would never have surrendered to you granting you six of our counties. Honestly, dream on.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Historical context? Nationalists on the Island in 1922 were in the extreme MAJORITY. If they British respected the wishes of the people and completely pulled out your merry little minority could have fought but we would never have surrendered to you granting you six of our counties. Honestly, dream on.

Yes but not in the 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster which was drawn out to create Northern Ireland. A large majority of people in that "area" didn't want a United Ireland and had been preparing to fight against it. The IRA was never going to win a war against the Unionists at that time. The war would have went on and on and on until a peace settlement would have been drawn up or defeat for the Irish Republican Army.

Morlar

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes but not in the 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster which was drawn out to create Northern Ireland. A large majority of people in that "area" didn't want a United Ireland and had been preparing to fight against it. The IRA was never going to win a war against the Unionists at that time. The war would have went on and on and on until a peace settlement would have been drawn up or defeat for the Irish Republican Army.

Keith, Dream on.

Tiocfaidh Armani

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes but not in the 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster which was drawn out to create Northern Ireland. A large majority of people in that "area" didn't want a United Ireland and had been preparing to fight against it. The IRA was never going to win a war against the Unionists at that time. The war would have went on and on and on until a peace settlement would have been drawn up or defeat for the Irish Republican Army.

That's not how democracy works. Scotland and the north of England didn't want the Tories, they got them and accepted the will of the majority, that's how it goes. You couldn't even find a province to get a majority in so sorry you weren't entitled to a state within a state.

Oh yeah your little merry army in the north would have defeated the rest of the country. Deluded:D

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

That's not how democracy works. Scotland and the north of England didn't want the Tories, they got them and accepted the will of the majority, that's how it goes. You couldn't even find a province to get a majority in so sorry you weren't entitled to a state within a state.

Oh yeah your little merry army in the north would have defeated the rest of the country. Deluded:D

Minorities have been given countries of their own before in history. This was no different. A hostile minority in terms of the overall Island is not something that would be easy to get rid of.

I ain't even on about the Ulster volunteers. Just the normal Unionist would have opposed it. You tell me how the Irish Republican Army would get a working government against the will of the majority of people in N.I and how they could avoid war? It would not have worked and they must have known that.

It was rejected in 1798 by the majority of Protestants in that area who didn't join in the ranks of Wolfe Tone and his rebels. It was hardly going to change in the 1920s.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Given the fact that the black and Tans and auxilliaries had been burning and pillaging their way up and down the country throughout the preceding War of Independence and were kept on a severely straining leash, committing blatant murders of innocent and unarmed people left and right & provoking international condemnation in the process. Given the context what does the threat of 'Terrible and immediate War' in the event of non signing mean to you ?

Also, you have yet to fleshed out your 'Britain is blame free' theory on the cause of the Irish Civil War.

It was a war between two sides in Ireland, that's why it was called a civil war. It is pretty desperate trying to blame Britain for a war they had no part in.

Have you found the threat yet? Maybe a chap called Griffith can help you http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/DT/D.P.192112150080.html

The treaty was signed in 1921, a few months later the elections gave overwhelming support for it.

A few months later the anti treaty side sparked a civil war that killed ten times more civilians than the war of independence.

The side that started the war (and lost) formed a political party which went on to rule Ireland for the majority of its independent history.

Its no wonder the civil war and its causes are brushed under the mat.

RMD

Morlar wrote: »

Keith, Dream on.

In fairness the UVF could have beaten the IRA during the early 20's. The IRA were poorly armed and had little funding, the UVF on the other hand had a fairly decent arm cache, money to use and the British empire on their side. There's a reason Collins accepted the Anglo-Irish treaty, he knew the IRA didn't have the capacity to fight on.

RichieC

why do people keep quoting keith :mad:

The ignore function should be hiding them too

laoch na mona

only if they start selling Easter lilies in britian

stooodent

No (I'm Irish)

Well said its just so pointless to continue hating over the sins of generation that has long gone..

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was a war between two sides in Ireland, that's why it was called a civil war. It is pretty desperate trying to blame Britain for a war they had no part in.

The Civil War was caused by a Treaty Britain forced on Ireland at the point of a gun.

On the Threat of 2 clear choices:

a) Accept the Treaty.
b) Suffer a 'Terrible and immediate War.'

I'd disagree with your glib view that it would be 'pretty desperate' to blame Britain for it on the basis they were not direct participants in it.

Apportioning blame works on the basis of who caused something to happen, like for example if someone undoes the brakes in your car, they are to blame. You do not blame you & whoever you crash your car into, you don't absolve the cause of any blame on the basis they were not there when the blood was spilled.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Have you found the threat yet? Maybe a chap called Griffith can help you http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/DT/D.P.192112150080.html

The treaty was signed in 1921, a few months later the elections gave overwhelming support for it.

You posted a link there to a sentence from Arthur Griffith during the first days of the treaty debates. What is your point ?
Even then it does not back up your position. "I had absolutely no doubt in my mind the issue there was peace or war."

Collins himself said 'Terrible and immediate War". He later softened this when the Pro and Anti Treaty sides became more defined, in order to give the appearance that the treaty was more desirable to begin with.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A few months later the anti treaty side sparked a civil war that killed ten times more civilians than the war of independence.

You are overlooking the entire context to this, for example that while the Four Courts were held, Collins held out for Peace. Britain was offering to paint it's airforce green to bomb the Four courts and offering gunships and artillery with high explosive shells. Only with extreme reluctance the Civil War began under direct pressure from . . .. . .

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Michael_Collins_Life_and_Times/10.THE_CIVIL_WAR.html

Churchill, worried about the stability of his own Coalition Government, became extremely impatient with the Irish Provisional Government in regard to the occupation of the Four Courts. In his parliamentary speech he said "The presence in Dublin of a band of men styling themselves the Headquarters of the Executive is a gross breach and defiance of the Treaty... if it is not brought to a speedy end, then it is my duty to say on behalf of His Majesty's Government that we shall regard the Treaty as having been formally violated... and we shall resume full liberty of action in any direction.."

Think about the meaning of that quote for a minute.

The picture you paint here of a peaceful, benevolent britain is at total odds with the reality.
- -

All of which is getting further and further from the question of should Irishmen wear a Red British Legion Poppy ?

My vote is No.

Yes we should acknowledge the sacrifices of Irishmen in WWI & WW2, but we can do that in our own way and not in a way that also honours the brutal record of the british army against the Irish people.

charlemont

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In the 1922 election, pro treaty parties won an overwhelming majority, yet their wishes were ignored and the country plunged into a bloody civil war.

Damn those Brits.

Damn Eamon De Valera more like.. Besides the obvious partition Britain didn't start the civil war.

Eamon talked the talk but when he got power he didn't walk it, He done more than anyone to put the unionists off a united Ireland, Home Rule was Rome Rule with Eamon, Deliberately so too, He knew damn well that in a united Ireland he would lose his power base.

ejmaztec

RMD wrote: »

In fairness the UVF could have beaten the IRA during the early 20's. The IRA were poorly armed and had little funding, the UVF on the other hand had a fairly decent arm cache, money to use and the British empire on their side. There's a reason Collins accepted the Anglo-Irish treaty, he knew the IRA didn't have the capacity to fight on.

I think that interested parties would have made their way to Ireland to back up each side (returning emigrants with guns, financial backing and opposing views). It wouldn't have just been those resident on the island at the time taking part. There would have been carnage.

The British could have tipped the balance, by "lending" equipment to their favoured side, in the same way that they allowed the pro-treaty forces access to this equipment (artillery, armoured cars etc) during the civil war.

Morlar

I have asked the question earlier on, maybe the 'Pro- Red Poppy British Legion' side of the discussion can address it ?

Morlar wrote: »

The British army record in Ireland is one of murder and oppression, why can't the sensitivity of this issue should be acknowledged by those in favour of the Poppy ?

There is no pressing need for Irish people to wear a red poppy to remember our War Dead, we can do this perfectly well in our own way, so I don't understand the need to try and push this on Irish people. It seems to be more about pushing the British Legion red Poppy than it is about remembering the Irish War Dead.

partyguinness

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

I think a lot of people actually do recognise that to some degree but remembrance day is more about remembering the fallen.

partyguinness

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a lot of people actually do recognise that to some degree but remembrance day is more about remembering the fallen.

I agree. But from my experience over here it is also used to stifle debate and criticisms because otherise is an insult or sully the memory of those who died. It is a very subtle form of censorship that suits the officials as the army needs fresh meat on an ongoing basis. I have been very surprised by it.

I used to bang on about it to my wife (who by the way is English and wears a poppy every year) and she would tell my I was paranoid, bitter, chip on the shoulder etc etc. Now she actually sees it herself and where she once poo pooed me she is herself shocked that she had been so blind to it.

Commemorate the war dead by all means and nothing wrong with that but my problem is where debate and constructive analysis is prohibited and dare I say censored.

The Poppy Fascists will be out again. Guests and hosts on the BBC are not allowed on unless they wear a poppy. That is very very wrong.

indough

partyguinness wrote: »

I agree. But from my experience over here it is also used to stifle debate and criticisms because otherise is an insult or sully the memory of those who died. It is a very subtle form of censorship that suits the officials as the army needs fresh meat on an ongoing basis. I have been very surprised by it.

I used to bang on about it to my wife (who by the way is English and wears a poppy every year) and she would tell my I was paranoid, bitter, chip on the shoulder etc etc. Now she actually sees it herself and where she once poo pooed me she is herself shocked that she had been so blind to it.

Commemorate the war dead by all means and nothing wrong with that but my problem is where debate and constructive analysis is prohibited and dare I say censored.

The Poppy Fascists will be out again. Guests and hosts on the BBC are not allowed on unless they wear a poppy. That is very very wrong.

perhaps you have never seen this little gem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJDyAnL9RQ

thats bbc by the way

i think you may be missing the point a little. people wear the poppies to commemorate the dead soldiers, its not really got anything to do with the politics of any of the wars involved, which lots of people would disagree with but still wear the things

Immaculate Pasta

Yes (I'm Irish)

Right I’m British I suppose (I consider myself English though), and come from an Irish background.

I believe the Irish shouldn’t be expected to wear the poppy at all. It’s commemorating the British army who have a disgusting history in Ireland. I myself refuse to wear one based on Britain’s history and continued occupation of Ireland.

The poppy some argue is for all wars, including WW2, but it’s been taken over now and has become far too political. Tabloids have an intense media campaign over here that everyone has to be supporting “our lads” over in Iraq and Afghanistan and they’re heroes and everything. The bottom line is they’re not. For one the British Army shouldn’t even be in Iraq or Afghanistan and I struggle to support an institution which has an awful track record of treating civilians wherever it goes. People in the British Army get found out torturing Iraqi civilians (not to mention the ones in Ireland) and it just gets brushed under the carpet and people aren’t held accountable for their actions. Since WW2, I really struggle to consider the British Army a respectable institution so simply I don’t want to support it.

It is very political over here in England and it’s considered unpatriotic not to wear one around Remembrance Day. But the people who died for us in WW2 died for us to have freedom and the choice over whether we wanted to do something or not. I remember at school here everyone was forced to wear a poppy for Remembrance Day assembly and I got detention after school for refusing to wear one. It kind of defeats the point if the public are being indoctrinated into wearing something to support a government’s oil war. The widespread British media condemnation of Celtic’s protest against the poppy last year pretty much just sums up the pettiness of it all.

If you want to wear one, wear one. I have no problem with it. But nobody should be expected to wear anything they don’t want to, it’s a free society ffs. If someone in your family who died in the army while serving, British or Irish, and want to commemorate them, I have no problem with it. Growing up in an Irish family in England, joining the British army just isn’t the done thing. Especially the stories you hear that went on back in the homeland and the racism in England during the Troubles that my family had to endure. My Grandfather served in the Irish Army and my Great Grandfather was in the army for the Emergency in WW2. If I really wanted to join the army I would join the Irish army which my family has a proud history of serving in, I wouldn’t want to join an institution which is responsible for a horrible history from the country my family come from and still has a dodgy track record today.

partyguinness

indough wrote: »

perhaps you have never seen this little gem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJDyAnL9RQ

thats bbc by the way

i think you may be missing the point a little. people wear the poppies to commemorate the dead soldiers, its not really got anything to do with the politics of any of the wars involved, which lots of people would disagree with but still wear the things

TBH I am not going to watch a comedy sketch on youtube...plus that is several years old. It has got a lot more in your face in the last 2-3 years. Believe me I know exactly why it is worn. The point I am raising is about the poppy police that restrict and shout down any criticisms.

Plus on a general point, official little England is wallowing in the past totally obsessed about the good old days...but that's another thread.

4leto

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

partyguinness

4leto wrote: »

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

Well I think the British were protecting themselve plus dont forget they played a large part in creating the conditions in Germany that allowed the Nazis to emerge in the first place.

Looking at their cars, Xmas markets and football team, it doesnt seem like such a bad idea seeing what we have done to the country by ourselves...;)

R P McMurphy

4leto wrote: »

We should at least thank the British for protecting us against the NAZIs who wanted to enslave the population and turn Ireland into the greenhouse of the Arian race.

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

ejmaztec

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

Good job they stayed put, or they would have turned Ireland into a gulag.:eek:

4leto

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Big shout out to Stalin and the rooskies as well

Ahh but as Hitler was over running western Europe Russia was its ally and it was only Britain between us and horror.

The Norwegians send them a christmas tree, we should at least decorate it.

Morlar

4leto wrote: »

Ahh but as Hitler was over running western Europe Russia was its ally and it was only Britain between us and horror.

The Norwegians send them a christmas tree, we should at least decorate it.

You do know the biggest threat to invasion of Ireland during ww2 came from Britain right ? I mean you are aware of the basic history ~?

4leto

Morlar wrote: »

You do know the biggest threat to invasion of Ireland during ww2 came from Britain right ? I mean you are aware of the basic history ~?

Only because Britain didn't capitulate, besides they didn't, but its safe to say Hitler would have.

Dyr

4leto wrote: »

Only because Britain didn't capitulate, besides they didn't, but its safe to say Hitler would have.

They did'nt invade because there was a strong lobby in the states that kept the american govt against the idead

4leto

Bambi wrote: »

They did'nt invade because there was a strong lobby in the states that kept the american govt against the idead

Not really, they basically got what they wanted, they didn't get the ports but they got the airspace over Donegal to fight the Atlantic war, plus our observational information on movements of German craft along our coast. Also a lot of our food exports

Churchill hadn't the resources to take our ports, they were busier elsewhere. Its a pointless discussion when discussing history what would have happened "IF".

Its like trying to predict the future all you will get is unforeseen events, if you are trying to predict what would have happened if its the same you will never know.

partyguinness

I am just glad that we can have this debate in Ireland. Admitedly it's the same old arguments every year with people racking their brains back to their Leaving Cert history classes..;)

Living in the UK I cannot find anywhere to discuss the matter. The Poppy Police are everywhere.

drakshug

Ye know, before I moved to Ireland the poppy question would never have crossed my mind. Id never thought anyone in Ireland would wear one and would even give a f***k about it.
Turns out they do as this annual boards debate shows.
Just let those who want to, wear one, not as part of British imperial jingoism but as a mark of respect to those who fell and the hope that the futility of war will end.
As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

Well I am an Irish man living in the UK for the past 18 mts.

From what I can see, the whole poppy day is basically historical guilt. The fact that the UK gov sent thousands and thousands of young men to their slaughter in WWI for absolutley no reason.

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths. By focusing on Poppy Day it prevents criticism and stifles debate because to question the armed forces is unheard of. This suits official Britain because to raise questions will inevitably question the involvement in Iraq and Afganistan which you cannot do over here. "They are Heros etc etc".

Being trained to kill and envading sovereign countries that pose no threat to the UK does not make you a "hero". They may be brave but they are not heros.

WWI deaths were pointless. There I said it. Half expecting the secret service to bang on the door at any minute now.

Poppy Day is a visual representation of this guilt.

What you are saying there is practically history 101 in England. Have you not heard the lions led by donkeys phrase?

To me and millions of others, that is even more reason to buy a poppy.

But, as I said earlier (I think) I can fully understand why Irish people may not wish to wear one.

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What you are saying there is practically history 101 in England. Have you not heard the lions led by donkeys phrase?

To me and millions of others, that is even more reason to buy a poppy.

But, as I said earlier (I think) I can fully understand why Irish people may not wish to wear one.

It's a shame more people do not take history 101.....

I am not disagreeing with you but my issue is that the annual poppy day services are being used to stifle debate and criticism. The TV channels trying to outdo each other with the size of their poppies. By saying that it is about the individual soldiers is all well and good but I see a much more sinister slant/hijacking of the event.

At social events or general chats I find myself being the most knowledgable person on English history. I just find it remarkable that people I come across in the UK wear poppies without giving any real thought as to why they are wearing one...there is a herd mentality which is wrong.

But I guess the English in general (well the white middle class anyway) are far more obedient when it comes to rules and regulations which, ironically is prob a legacy from WWI and WWII and the more prominent position of the military in British culture.

ps Interestingly the army have started a recruitment drive at the moment for infantry...just a coincidence I am sure..;)

partyguinness

drakshug wrote: »

Ye know, before I moved to Ireland the poppy question would never have crossed my mind. Id never thought anyone in Ireland would wear one and would even give a f***k about it.
Turns out they do as this annual boards debate shows.
Just let those who want to, wear one, not as part of British imperial jingoism but as a mark of respect to those who fell and the hope that the futility of war will end.
As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You are right. Nobody(well most people) in Ireland gives a crap except the likes of Kevin Myers and his fetish for the "Great War".

I personally could not care less if somebody wants to wear a poppy and it is not an anti Irish thing. Nothing to do with us.

Yes many Irishmen joined the British army during WWI, it was a foreign army, under a foreign monarch fighting a foreign (imperial) war. That was their choice and if people want to wear poppies to remember them...let them at it.

A Dub in Glasgo

drakshug wrote: »

As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You have it easy, as an Irishman living in Scotland I nearly got lynched for wearing an Easter Lilly one Easter

jpm4

This is the big elephant in the room in the UK which nobody wants to say out loud is WWI was utterly utterly pointless and millions died (on all sides) for no obvious reason. But you see...you cant say that.

IMO it was the greatest act of mindless murder in human history..and for what?? Basically egos.

I am astonished at the lack of criticisms) of the officer class who sent these people to their deaths.

Pretty much everything you have said above is the default populist view of the war, so you saying "you can't say that" makes no sense as it has been said countless times in documentaries, books, newspaper articles, etc.

The modern view of the war is that it was pointless, and with the benefit of hindsight and endless amounts of literature it's an easy point of view to reach. Maybe it was.( I think the people of the occupied regions of France and Belgium might not have agreed). But this view trivialises an enormously complex affair which many people seem to think they are an expert on after watching a few episodes of Blackadder Goes Forth. It deserves so much more consideration than that.

scudzilla

No (I'm Irish)

I'd vote Yes, if it wasn't for them we'd all be speaking German now.

Fighting Irish

Whatever

Richard

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Whatever

My response is "Only if they want to".

drakshug

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

drakshug wrote: »

As a Scot I wear mine to remember those Scots who fell and to contribute to the ex servicemens hospital in Erskine. Id prefer to be able to wear it without any comments or insults. It isn't an anti Irish thing.

You have it easy, as an Irishman living in Scotland I nearly got lynched for wearing an Easter Lilly one Easter

I didn't even know what the significance of an Easter lily was until I moved here and I doubt many Scots do.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

as a englishman i had never even heard of the easter lilly,as for buying a poppy in ireland,why not ?you dont have to wear it,what you are doing is putting money in a collection to look after irishmen and their families that are in need who once were in the british army,all the money that is collected in ireland,stays in ireland,at the end of the day ,it is a charity.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

partyguinness wrote: »

You are right. Nobody(well most people) in Ireland gives a crap except the likes of Kevin Myers and his fetish for the "Great War".

I personally could not care less if somebody wants to wear a poppy and it is not an anti Irish thing. Nothing to do with us.

Jezus, where do they get them :rolleyes:

Either you live in a parrallel universe, or you are too young to know any better? I live in Dublin & I wear the Poppy every year to commerate my Irish grandad and the fifty thousand other Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, we also commerate all the other people who died in the two world wars. the Poppy is the perfect symbol to commerate the futility of war, and the reason the poppy is used is because that is what grows on Flanders Fields, where so many good Irish, British, Canadian, American, & German men died . . . . .

Come the week leading up to the 11th/Nov I will as usual be wearing my poppy on the streets of Dublin as a mark of respect to those who died for our freedom against the tyranny of the enemy, in the Great War & World War II. On the 11th/Nov I will be attending 'St patricks Cathedral Dublin' to mark the Armistice itself which was signed at the 11th hour, on the 11th Day, of the 11th Month (the President usually attends), and on the nearest Sunday to the 11th, my local Parish Church in South Dublin will also hold a service of commeration, poppies will be worn by most of the congregation & the last post played by a lone bugler as the names of the fallen 'from that parish' are read out . . . . . . .

Every year we get a thread about this, and every year its learning time again (for some) who are either too young to know about the poppy, or who missed some of their history lessons in school.