Charolais the only breed in town?...as regards weanling production.

Western Pomise

Was in Mart yday.....very good trade for heifir weanlings esp....bull weanlings quite good too....couldnt help but notice that Charolais weanlings of mediocre quality around the 300kg were making same price as Lim or BB of far better quality of same weights....seems to me esp with the BB that unless you have an exceptional calf you are getting v average money.....what do other weanling producers feel....highest priced heifir weanlings were simmental or char....I use Char myself so may be biased;)......cow costs same to feed regardless of her calf....

leg wax

i hope it continues but this is only the first year of higher prices,please dont get over confident,when stock numbers rise next year we will see how good the prices will be next nov ,enjoy while it lasts.

Bodacious

leg wax wrote: »

i hope it continues but this is only the first year of higher prices,please dont get over confident,when stock numbers rise next year we will see how good the prices will be next nov ,enjoy while it lasts.

I kinda thinking the same myself next year will be the test, shortage of stock in the country at the min and prices are great but every man and his dog are going out now buying in calf heifers, bulling heifers at big money... Will be alot more cattle about to meet demand next year.

Char definitely demanding a premium in the ring as always but more so this year they are hammering the blues if they not good enough for the boat

pakalasa

Remember the price of Belgian Blues is dictated by the export market only. The charolais weanling has two markets, the exporter and the Irish Farmer. It's the irish farmer that's driving prices this year. There's a shortage this year, sinple as that. I wouldn't get too carried away. A year or two might bring a bit of reality back into things.

Juniorhurler

pakalasa wrote: »

Remember the price of Belgian Blues is dictated by the export market only. The charolais weanling has two markets, the exporter and the Irish Farmer. It's the irish farmer that's driving prices this year. There's a shortage this year, sinple as that. I wouldn't get too carried away. A year or two might bring a bit of reality back into things.

Agree totally. With all due respect there is nothing as stupid as farmers. For one year we get good prices, so what do we do? Push up the prices of our "raw materials" (cattle) on ourselves.

If the factory prices come down the charolais will drop dramatically as very few of them are bought by the shippers in Carnew anyhow. Shippers will always favour the blue where possible as bones take up too much space on the ship, so I believe myself that with tightening supplies in South America the ships will continue to run while the Irish farmers buying power will wane when the factories have enough of a supply. I may be biased though as I use breed blues and have done for the last 13 years.:D

bogman_bass

what you will see now is every screw of a heifer and cow getting put in calf come next april. thats when the mess will really start

reilig

Again, I agree with the 2 above.

I haven't been in BB as long a Juniorhurler. But I find that BB have changed my farming a little bit. I have identified the cows in my herd that are suitable for BB. I also know the cows that are suitable for CH or LIM. There's no point in putting a BB bull on a cow that isn't suitable - however, a lot of farmers in the country think or thought that putting a BB on a bad breeding cow was going to instantly bring you a great calf. Its not. The sooner that these guys go back to breeding Charolais, the better for us all

I find a couple of positives about the BB:
1. If their figures in ICBF say that they are easy calving, then they will be easy calved. I had over 20 blue calves last year and only 1 had to be assisted calving.
2. They are hardier calves than CH - less prone to scour and other sickness.
3. They are quiet. Most of mine can be caught in the field.
4. On my farm, with my feeding regeim, BB have a much better daily weight gain than CH or LIM calves off the same cows in previous years.

So in short, if BB are only making the same as CH calves, then I'm still doing better.

OP, a quick point about CH and LIM.

There's a guy in monaghan that I know who is doing a study on CH and LIM cattle prices. He travels the country to various marts and records, ages, weights and prices. So far this year, his figures show that Ch weinlings are yielding no better average prices than LIM weinlings when you compare them on the basis of weight, age and price. He has recorded thousands of prices.

Funny enough, his study does show that in some parts of the country, CH will make better money than LIM (NW, Mid West and North East), but these figures are balanced out by higher returns for LIM in marts in the West, North, East and South.

snowman707

bogman_bass wrote: »

what you will see now is every screw of a heifer and cow getting put in calf come next april. thats when the mess will really start

that's what happened when the suckler cow premium was introduced, took us 15
years to clear the sh1t , now we are backtracking again


was speaking to guy at central auctions mart one day last spring who advertised charollais bulls, first question usually asked was ' were they easy calving' ?

polod

I seen a 260kg CH heifer make 785euro in granard mart .....thats some money for a light wealing ...a few years ago they would only have been hitting the 500 mark id imagine !

Grecco

reilig wrote: »

I find a couple of positives about the BB:
1. If their figures in ICBF say that they are easy calving, then they will be easy calved. I had over 20 blue calves last year and only 1 had to be assisted calving.
2. They are hardier calves than CH - less prone to scour and other sickness.
3. They are quiet. Most of mine can be caught in the field.
4. On my farm, with my feeding regeim, BB have a much better daily weight gain than CH or LIM calves off the same cows in previous years.

I can see how they are easy calving, do you see all the small crab BBs that are out there, it seems to me that if you don`t have a cow that will breed big animals then you wont get size from the BB
And better daily weight gain?? what are you on about, go into any mart and compare Age and weight of BBs Verse CH, there's little or no difference, if anything the CH is slightly heavier due to its size
As for being hardier than CH, that's rubbish where are you getting your facts or are you just making it up


Come on man your supposed to be a mod

reilig

How many do you keep? This is my experience from the 20 or so Bb calves that I have on a yearly basis.

BB will always weigh heavier for me than the same age CH or LIM. They develop muscle much faster are easier fed. There's a huge difference.

There are loads of "crab" bb's out there. Tghis is because guys choose to put BB on the wrong type of cows. I have found Bb to be as easy calved, if not easier than my stock bull. Little or no assistance required. of course, this is down to my choice of sire, the cow and my feeding regeim.

There's no calf as soft or as delicate as a big lump of a chaorlais bull calf - prone to every infection going, scour etc. Soft as butter, slow to get on his feet, slow to suck - a delicate animal by all accounts. I have this problem with some of my CH calves. i don't have it with the BB's.

I'm getting my facts from my experience. Where are you getting yours???

Grecco wrote: »

I can see how they are easy calving, do you see all the small crab BBs that are out there, it seems to me that if you don`t have a cow that will breed big animals then you wont get size from the BB
And better daily weight gain?? what are you on about, go into any mart and compare Age and weight of BBs Verse CH, there's little or no difference, if anything the CH is slightly heavier due to its size
As for being hardier than CH, that's rubbish where are you getting your facts or are you just making it up


Come on man your supposed to be a mod

irishh_bob

Grecco wrote: »

I can see how they are easy calving, do you see all the small crab BBs that are out there, it seems to me that if you don`t have a cow that will breed big animals then you wont get size from the BB
And better daily weight gain?? what are you on about, go into any mart and compare Age and weight of BBs Verse CH, there's little or no difference, if anything the CH is slightly heavier due to its size
As for being hardier than CH, that's rubbish where are you getting your facts or are you just making it up


Come on man your supposed to be a mod

is it not a commonly held view that charloais are a delicate flower as a calf ?

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

How many do you keep? This is my experience from the 20 or so Bb calves that I have on a yearly basis.

BB will always weigh heavier for me than the same age CH or LIM. They develop muscle much faster are easier fed. There's a huge difference.

There are loads of "crab" bb's out there. Tghis is because guys choose to put BB on the wrong type of cows. I have found Bb to be as easy calved, if not easier than my stock bull. Little or no assistance required. of course, this is down to my choice of sire, the cow and my feeding regeim.

There's no calf as soft or as delicate as a big lump of a chaorlais bull calf - prone to every infection going, scour etc. Soft as butter, slow to get on his feet, slow to suck - a delicate animal by all accounts. I have this problem with some of my CH calves. i don't have it with the BB's.

I'm getting my facts from my experience. Where are you getting yours???

what do you find to be the best dam for a bb calf ? , have heard that an angus cow can rear the best of bb calves , good combo for those with less than ideal ground perhaps

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

what do you find to be the best dam for a bb calf ? , have heard that an angus cow can rear the best of bb calves , good combo for those with less than ideal ground perhaps

Black limousin is my choice. The cow won't be over heavy, so will suite poorer ground, but she will be capable of producing a calf that will develop muscle at 4 to 6 months old.

bogman_bass

Grecco wrote: »

that's rubbish where are you getting your facts or are you just making it up


Come on man your supposed to be a mod

Firstly, what has being a mod got to do with anything?

Secondly, of course these are coming from his personal experience, last time I check there was no SI messurment of "hardiness"

pakalasa

I've bred both Charolais and BB's, mind you only a few.
This is what I've seen.
- Both need attention as calves, a lot more than say the Limousin. BB calves have very small mouths and find it hard to suckle, especially with big teats.
- Charolais tend to be very heavy boned and find it hard to stand. Calving also tends to be harder and so they are always that bit weaker at birth. After a few days they need very litle help.
BB's do tend to get pneomonia more than Char too. Ask any vet.

For an easy life, go Limousin - They are the hardiest of all. I saw this one lim bull calf being born one day. As soon as the legs were out, they were kicking like mad. Out comes the head and he's bawling away. Hits the ground and up straight away. Not only drinking the cow, but giving her a good dig as he's at it.

vanderbadger

pakalasa wrote: »

I've bred both Charolais and BB's, mind you only a few.
This is what I've seen.
- Both need attention as calves, a lot more than say the Limousin. BB calves have very small mouths and find it hard to suckle, especially with big teats.
- Charolais tend to be very heavy boned and find it hard to stand. Calving also tends to be harder and so they are always that bit weaker at birth. After a few days they need very litle help.
BB's do tend to get pneomonia more than Char too. Ask any vet.

For an easy life, go Limousin - They are the hardiest of all. I saw this one lim bull calf being born one day. As soon as the legs were out, they were kicking like mad. Out comes the head and he's bawling away. Hits the ground and up straight away. Not only drinking the cow, but giving her a good dig as he's at it.

parthenaise are actually good lively little calf, generally get up and suck themselves. i would say that for the few blues Ive bred I havent found any great difference between themselves and the other breeds although I had a big blue weanling this summer and had to have his hoofs pared which was a first for me in a weanling :eek:

Grecco

reilig wrote: »

How many do you keep?

BB will always weigh heavier for me than the same age CH or LIM. They develop muscle much faster are easier fed. There's a huge difference.

I keep 75 cows in 4 lots. I run a Charolais Bull with 3 herds and the last Herd is being AI with BBs at the moment.
I will only use BBs on Big cows that have loads of milk. They produce great calves to Weanlens. The thing is the same cows would produce a great calf of a Hereford or another Beef Breed.
So to me its mainly down to the cows for getting results from BBs. As for faster easier fed, Ive never given an ounce of meal to any weanlen only milk and grass and they are always over 330kgs at 9 months Bulls/Heifers/BB/CH whatever so to say they are easily fed compared to the CH isn't true.
All in my opinion of course

reilig

Grecco wrote: »

So to me its mainly down to the cows for getting results from BBs. As for faster easier fed, Ive never given an ounce of meal to any weanlen only milk and grass and they are always over 330kgs at 9 months Bulls/Heifers/BB/CH whatever so to say they are easily fed compared to the CH isn't true.
All in my opinion of course

I keep approximately 60 cows on heavy land. Approximately 40 of them would run with the CH Bull. The rest are usually put in calf to AI BB. Most of these in calf to bb are Black Limousin.

Most of mine would be March, April and May born. They usually go straight to grass. They are sold in October at 5 to 7 months. They get meal for the last 5 weeks as per the SCWS - about 2kg per head per day, which gives me an extra €41 per head in comparison to those who don't implement the scheme and more than pays for the meal that i feed to the animal. They usually come in above the 330kg's too. I have 10 sold so far and they averaged €3.50 per kg (Both Bulls and Heifers). None of my CH calved at the same time, getting the same grass and same meal weighed as well or sold as well. The CH weinlings did well to go above €3 per kg, with only a few making €3.50 per kg whereas the best bb made €3.80 per kg. Have 11 more bb's to sell in the next 2 weeks so hopefully the prices will keep up.

Not really giving my opinion on this, just my experience of what works for me :rolleyes:

reilig

Grecco

Did you get any BB calves off the simmental cows that you were asking about earlier this year?

It would be interesting to see what type of calves they would bring?

Bizzum

In relation to liveweight gain I would find the CH superior to the BB, all things being equal. However all things are rarely equal! To compare like with like you would have to take away the effect of the Dam often being another breed, and compare PB bulls/heifers of both breeds. I suspect, again all things being equal, like milk and feeding, for example, that the PB CH would be heavier than the PB BB at a given age.
Many of our cows have had BB calves at some stage in their career, but the last 3/4 years we keep a CH stockbull. Again the CH calves are typically heavier at sale. The CH seems to bring a more consistant quality of calf too.
Most of our calves are exported, I also suspect that many real good calves never see a mart but are bought off farm for export.
Re: Hardiness, The softest calves generally are the big CH calves, the blues are not that far behind them in my opinion, and either Lim or AA are the hardiest. I've seen Lim calves being born almost standing up:D

Bizzum

reilig wrote: »

Grecco

Did you get any BB calves off the simmental cows that you were asking about earlier this year?

It would be interesting to see what type of calves they would bring?

I've had a few over the years. Good stock too. I've had the same Simx cows calve Lim, BB, and CH. I've had PB CH cows calve BB calves, these were good stock too. I've had PB CH X Lim and PB CH X BA. All good stock. Any cow with us that is not capable of breeding a U grade calf isnt kept. If you're using AI or have a good bull, the majority of the calves should be U grade.
The moral of the story. A good cow will breed good calves to several breeds!

I've added a couple of pic to the photo thread of a couple of the cattle above. I have more but my filing system is a mess!

stagg88

I have a kept a few limo x friesan heifers this year due to quota restraints etc... they're out of a stock bull not the best or the worst animals I ever seen. Going to ai this spring what breed do you reckon I use ? what grade do you reckon I could get outta the calves using a decent straw?

pakalasa

stagg88 wrote: »

I have a kept a few limo x friesan heifers this year due to quota restraints etc... they're out of a stock bull not the best or the worst animals I ever seen. Going to ai this spring what breed do you reckon I use ? what grade do you reckon I could get outta the calves using a decent straw?

Go with an easy calving limousin. You'll get at minimum, good R types. Are the cows Holstein or British Fr types?

bogman_bass

The downside to limos is that they will add days to your calving interval due to their longer gestation length. so I would avoid them at the end of the breeding season.
If you have mature cows then an easy calving blue like BBQ or SRI will give good results and they are short gestation.
Herefords are easy calved, short gestation and are easily fleshed
Angus are the same with the added advantage that they dont have to be dehorned

reilig

bogman_bass wrote: »

The downside to limos is that they will add days to your calving interval due to their longer gestation length. so I would avoid them at the end of the breeding season.
If you have mature cows then an easy calving blue like BBQ or SRI will give good results and they are short gestation.
Herefords are easy calved, short gestation and are easily fleshed
Angus are the same with the added advantage that they dont have to be dehorned

Would you put a BB on a heifer? Even an easy calving BB?
I don't think I'd chance it, especially on a LM x FR. I'd like to see how easy she got out the first calf before I'd chance the BB.

bogman_bass

Oops! I thought the poster was looking to use beef straws on his dairy cows

stagg88

pakalasa wrote: »

stagg88 wrote: »

I have a kept a few limo x friesan heifers this year due to quota restraints etc... they're out of a stock bull not the best or the worst animals I ever seen. Going to ai this spring what breed do you reckon I use ? what grade do you reckon I could get outta the calves using a decent straw?

Go with an easy calving limousin. You'll get at minimum, good R types. Are the cows Holstein or British Fr types?

A mix mostly british Friedan x limo one outta a short short. good sturdy cattle was thinking the limo alright! Wouldn't be fit for a bb first calf?????

Bizzum

stagg88 wrote: »

A mix mostly british Friedan x limo one outta a short short. good sturdy cattle was thinking the limo alright! Wouldn't be fit for a bb first calf?????

If they are an R grade heifers and are bulled to a decent AI bull like FL22 for example you will produce a good propoprtion of U grade cattle.
I have used Lim, BA, Part (just one!) and BB on lim heifers.

Bodacious

Bizzum wrote: »

If they are an R grade heifers and are bulled to a decent AI bull like FL22 for example you will produce a good propoprtion of U grade cattle.
I have used Lim, BA, Part (just one!) and BB on lim heifers.

Hi Bizzum,

What did your weanlings from Fl22 turn out like? I think he does exactly what he says on the tin as in easy calving but i was very impressed with the quality of the calves at 1-3 mts but they like racehorses at weaning.. all legs and daylight beneath them and no great depth, muscle or quality maybe they mature into great cattle as my ai man says but if so they not greatly suited to weanling producers.. saw great calves out of CVV this year and FL25 so used them on same heifers and 1 part - Sirex:)

Bizzum

Bodacious wrote: »

Hi Bizzum,

What did your weanlings from Fl22 turn out like? I think he does exactly what he says on the tin as in easy calving but i was very impressed with the quality of the calves at 1-3 mts but they like racehorses at weaning.. all legs and daylight beneath them and no great depth, muscle or quality maybe they mature into great cattle as my ai man says but if so they not greatly suited to weanling producers.. saw great calves out of CVV this year and FL25 so used them on same heifers and 1 part - Sirex:)

I can't answer that. I only used FL22 in the post as an example. We have a few heifers currently carrying to FL22 calvind Dec/Jan. The last 3 heifers that calved were carrying to RSJ (Jaguar) and one to ABI (By Section), I'm hoping FL22 will be easily calved even at the expence of a bit of quality!
Looking at the AI statement lately I see one of our best breeding cows (A Blonde X) is supposed to be carrying to FL22, I think the AI man put on the wrong code, supposed to be Uboy in her, hoping for a heifer!

Tora Bora

I have an FL22 weanling in the shed being weaned. He is off a good simmental heifer. Looks like a well done greyhound, in amongst a bunch of charolais calves the same age. Is it any wonder I can't afford Rolls-Royce wellies like the rest of ye on the wellie thread.

bogman_bass

Have had a few fl22 calves. very easy calved. have one spring calf by him thats due for weaning and he's a cracker. length and great hind quarters. must post a pic

Bizzum

Tora Bora wrote: »

Is it any wonder I can't afford Rolls-Royce wellies like the rest of ye on the wellie thread.

I can't afford them really myself, I've to save up my pocket money:D

Bizzum

bogman_bass wrote: »

Have had a few fl22 calves. very easy calved. have one spring calf by him thats due for weaning and he's a cracker. length and great hind quarters. must post a pic

What are the most impressive looking few bulls in Enfield would you think?

bogman_bass

why are you asking me? I could work for any of the studs


but from my inside sources probably the best at the moment is the new hereford FH Noel. best back I've seen on any bull. but typically he doest seem to want to produce. ADX is a nice limo. BCZ is a pretty nice blue. wouldnt be pushed on LGL at all.

not many beef bulls there at the moment but about a dozen new charolais and limos due in from france in a couple of weeks



or so i've been told

Bizzum

bogman_bass wrote: »

why are you asking me? I could work for any of the studs


but from my inside sources probably the best at the moment is the new hereford FH Noel. best back I've seen on any bull. but typically he doest seem to want to produce. ADX is a nice limo. BCZ is a pretty nice blue. wouldnt be pushed on LGL at all.

not many beef bulls there at the moment but about a dozen new charolais and limos due in from france in a couple of weeks



or so i've been told

Great stuff. Thanks.
Not for a second would I suggest that you would even be able to find your way to Kilcorney, BUT you always seem to have the inside track, a man in the know, so to speak!
Would be interested to hear what them new CH bulls look like.
Keep your ear to the ground, ya never know what ya might hear:D

Carefull now!!!!!!!!!!

Bodacious

Tora Bora wrote: »

I have an FL22 weanling in the shed being weaned. He is off a good simmental heifer. Looks like a well done greyhound, in amongst a bunch of charolais calves the same age. Is it any wonder I can't afford Rolls-Royce wellies like the rest of ye on the wellie thread.

A well done greyhound is a very good description΅of them, we´ve 5 of them and have seen at least 10 others locally and they all seem to be of the same leggy/light bodied stature.. will post some pics

Kovu

Am I the only fecking person still using DO/BO with these bull codes I keep hearing about???

Bizzum

Karen112 wrote: »

DO/BO

Wha?

Kovu

Bizzum wrote: »

Wha?

Dovea & Bovea

ceannfort

No, I'm still using dovea. And getting straws of bova in the next few weeks. What bulls u using and what's working well for u?