I don't understand why people are supporting Martin McGuinness

partnership

Presume you would ascribe the same words and sentiments to Collins, Mandela, Bush, Obama, Ghandi along with the heads of any other counties who were under British rule. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

That does not say I condone what the IRA did, however I believe that if it wasn't for McGuinness and Adams there would not be peace.

I would agree with the poster who said what impact did they have on people in the republic. For me FF policies over the last twenty years have had a bigger impact on me than any conflict up the North.

Reamer Fanny

dublin_1990 wrote: »

He has admitted his involvement in the IRA. So therefore he has admitted to killing innocent civilians; Men, Women and CHILDREN. I don't care if he says he joined because of the troubles in Derry and it was the fight against the British forces it does not excuse the fact that he was part of an organisation that took the lives away of perfectly innocent people and destroyed the lives of many more. I really don't understand how people can ignore all this and say he wants to do good for Ireland now. A little too late if you ask me. We cannot ignore what he did just because it was long ago. If a convicted murderer or rapist claimed to have changed their ways I would not be voting for them.
The bottom line is he was part of an organisation that killed innocent civilians and this was even before 1974 which is when he claimed to have left.

Totally agree there is something very distrusting about him

starviewadams

Voting for McGuinness myself,mainly because all of the other career politicians seem to hate him,so he must be doing something right.I know it won't make a blind bit of difference because Higgins will win and the status quo will be maintained,but there's no way in hell that I'm voting for FG or Labour after they backtracked on election promises,not voting for Gallagher because he's basically a FF party canditate,and I'm not voting for Dana/Davis because they are morons,and Norris' overly theatrical speeches get on my nerves,not to mention his kiddie fiddler supporting.

maccored

phog wrote: »

and they were some you had time for him before that dont now, CIRA/RIRA????

I read that 5 times and I still cant understand it. I said there were people who didnt have time for mmg before the peace process, but who now do. I dont see how thats to related to whatever them words up there are trying to say.

He dismisses them and the cause they are fighting for but he tries to justify the atrocities of the IRA that he joined, supported and commanded.

Theres an option now for dialogue that never existed before - which is why many people (including mmg) have no time for 'dissidents'.

I'm assuming you'd prefer that he didnt do the whole politics and peace thing then, right? You should really concentrate hard and decide on one or the other. it makes this whole debate thing less confusing

Chuck Stone

Dudess wrote: »

what did e.g. Jerry McCabe do to deserve what was done to him? Can you imagine the hurt it causes his family to hear stuff like McGuinness is a great man etc...

There were a lot of families who were hurt during that conflict due to the loss of loved ones.

I know people like to focus on JMcC as some sort of special victim of what went on on this island but he really isn't.

mrbango

dublin_1990 wrote: »

He has admitted his involvement in the IRA. So therefore he has admitted to killing innocent civilians; Men, Women and CHILDREN. I don't care if he says he joined because of the troubles in Derry and it was the fight against the British forces it does not excuse the fact that he was part of an organisation that took the lives away of perfectly innocent people and destroyed the lives of many more. I really don't understand how people can ignore all this and say he wants to do good for Ireland now. A little too late if you ask me. We cannot ignore what he did just because it was long ago. If a convicted murderer or rapist claimed to have changed their ways I would not be voting for them.
The bottom line is he was part of an organisation that killed innocent civilians and this was even before 1974 which is when he claimed to have left.

there are many irish people who are quick to criticise martin mcguinness for his involvment in the ira. and you say you cannot accept the facct that he was involved in attempt to fight for basic human rights which were not provided for irish catholics at the time. but let me guess you are one of those obama supporters?? thought so. And what about his involvment in the killings of innocent civillians. i find most people who snipeabout mcguinness are hypocrites in this regard

wow sierra

I think the phrase Sinn Féin used to use in connection with this was "hierarchy of victims". I found it appropriate at the time - I remember when a blond pretty English boy was killed this became news for about a year while other victims were forgotten.

There were many many atrocities in the North during and before and since the period known as the troubles. All of them are as relevant as each other.

As regards Martin McGuinness - he lived in a region where rights and quality of life were a million miles from what we enjoyed in the South. I am not saying the IRA were right - I am just saying people should inform themselves about the prevailing situation up there before making judgements on them. Mc Guinness proved an excellent negotiator during the Good Friday Agreement and before. He has a good working relationship with Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson. People who are too young to remember should check out Ian Paisley on youtube sometime to learn how utterly remarkable that is.
By all accounts McGuinness is a personable man when you meet him. He is very much in touch with the grass roots people.

I think this election for Sinn Féin is about increasing their profile and acceptablity ahead of the next General election. I don't think they really want to win - I doubt McGuinness does anyway.

Apart from anything else he deserves a vote for doing the country the service of keeping Gallagher out of the Aras - if he has.

caseyann

mrbango wrote: »

there are many irish people who are quick to criticise martin mcguinness for his involvment in the ira. and you say you cannot accept the facct that he was involved in attempt to fight for basic human rights which were not provided for irish catholics at the time. but let me guess you are one of those obama supporters?? thought so. And what about his involvment in the killings of innocent civillians. i find most people who snipeabout mcguinness are hypocrites in this regard

You should become a preacher :cool: But i fear this choir is not listening and doesnt want to.

caseyann

wow sierra wrote: »

I think the phrase Sinn Féin used to use in connection with this was "hierarchy of victims". I found it appropriate at the time - I remember when a blond pretty English boy was killed this became news for about a year while other victims were forgotten.

There were many many atrocities in the North during and before and since the period known as the troubles. All of them are as relevant as each other.

As regards Martin McGuinness - he lived in a region where rights and quality of life were a million miles from what we enjoyed in the South. I am not saying the IRA were right - I am just saying people should inform themselves about the prevailing situation up there before making judgements on them. Mc Guinness proved an excellent negotiator during the Good Friday Agreement and before. He has a good working relationship with Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson. People who are too young to remember should check out Ian Paisley on youtube sometime to learn how utterly remarkable that is.
By all accounts McGuinness is a personable man when you meet him. He is very much in touch with the grass roots people.

I think this election for Sinn Féin is about increasing their profile and acceptablity ahead of the next General election. I don't think they really want to win - I doubt McGuinness does anyway.

Apart from anything else he deserves a vote for doing the country the service of keeping Gallagher out of the Aras - if he has.

I know i hated ian growing up the bigoted comments he made about Irish was unreal.And happy to say i dont anymore as he opened his mind and moved on.

dublin_1990

mrbango wrote: »

there are many irish people who are quick to criticise martin mcguinness for his involvment in the ira. and you say you cannot accept the facct that he was involved in attempt to fight for basic human rights which were not provided for irish catholics at the time. but let me guess you are one of those obama supporters?? thought so. And what about his involvment in the killings of innocent civillians. i find most people who snipeabout mcguinness are hypocrites in this regard

Well you guessed wrong. And how exactly am I a hypocrite? I don't want someone who was involved in an organisation that killed innocent people to represent my country. You can't deny his actions along with others cost the lifes of many people.... Well I'm sure you will manage to justify somehow.

Chuck Stone

caseyann wrote: »

I know i hated ian growing up the bigoted comments he made about Irish was unreal.And happy to say i dont anymore as he opened his mind and moved on.

I still hate the old hypocrite. He enjoyed nothing more than whipping the paranoid fools who listened to him into a froth-mouthed frenzy and then melt away while people got hurt.

Godge

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There were a lot of families who were hurt during that conflict due to the loss of loved ones.

I know people like to focus on JMcC as some sort of special victim of what went on on this island but he really isn't.

Are you talking about Jerry McCabe or Jean McConville? Doesn't it say something when then are so many victims of IRA/Sinn Fein that you need more than initials to identify them.

Chuck Stone

Godge wrote: »

Are you talking about Jerry McCabe or Jean McConville? Doesn't it say something when then are so many victims of IRA/Sinn Fein that you need more than initials to identify them.

You see what you're doing there?

You're trying to make out that the IRA did a special type of killing.

Rather than being appalled by their deaths you are using their ghosts to make a political statement.

Disgusting.

lugha

wow sierra wrote: »

Apart from anything else he deserves a vote for doing the country the service of keeping Gallagher out of the Aras - if he has.

Excellent reasoning there. A man who at the very least, condoned the sending of hundreds of people to early graves should be feted for “exposing” a man who, at the very worse, was less than forthcoming about his role in raising funds for a political party.

(As an aside, I would not be so sure that he has scuppered Gallagher. The Sinn Fein ambush quite possible came too late. I guess we will know fairly soon)

wow sierra

Godge wrote: »

Are you talking about Jerry McCabe or Jean McConville? Doesn't it say something when then are so many victims of IRA/Sinn Fein that you need more than initials to identify them.

Just curious - could you name any of the victims of the Shankhill butchers or even hazard a guess as to how many innocent people they killed. Ever heard of the Miami showband, Dublin and Monaghan bombings - or do they not count??

Hierarchy of victims isn't it?

LordSutch

I have no idea why anybody (but a Sinn Fein supporter) would vote for Martin McGuinness as our next President!
Martin McGuinness was in the Provisional IRA, one of the most ruthless terrorist organisations to ever exist, McGuinness admits he was a Provo, which by association makes him part of that machine, for they murdered in Northern Ireland, they bombed in Britain, they murdered in the Republic too! (McGuinness & Adams always refused to condemn murders), they made people 'disappear', they planted bombs in busses, in pubs, in shopping centres, they planted bombs under cars, they shot people at point blank range, they specialised in knee cappings, booby traps, and all manner of torture.

And then we had the 'peace process', a peace process that took much longer than it should have done, due to the PIRA dragging their feet! The peace process included many players (including those who wished to come in from the cold). And as regards McGuinness running in this election, it was all a stunt, he never had a chance of winning (far too many enemies down here), but the plan was to raise the SF profile in the South, and I guess to that extent they have succeeded, if only for several weeks )

lugha

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I know people like to focus on JMcC as some sort of special victim of what went on on this island but he really isn't.

Oh, but he is. He was murdered after Sinn Fein / IRA had told us that they had renounced violence and were pursuing the democratic path. It was one of the incidents that places questions marks over Sinn Feins's commitment to democracy given that is occurred during just about the only phase since '94 where republicans found that the democratic path was not "delivering" for them.

Fitzerb

wow sierra wrote: »

I think the phrase Sinn Féin used to use in connection with this was "hierarchy of victims". I found it appropriate at the time - I remember when a blond pretty English boy was killed this became news for about a year while other victims were forgotten.

There were many many atrocities in the North during and before and since the period known as the troubles. All of them are as relevant as each other.

As regards Martin McGuinness - he lived in a region where rights and quality of life were a million miles from what we enjoyed in the South. I am not saying the IRA were right - I am just saying people should inform themselves about the prevailing situation up there before making judgements on them. Mc Guinness proved an excellent negotiator during the Good Friday Agreement and before. He has a good working relationship with Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson. People who are too young to remember should check out Ian Paisley on youtube sometime to learn how utterly remarkable that is.
By all accounts McGuinness is a personable man when you meet him. He is very much in touch with the grass roots people.

I think this election for Sinn Féin is about increasing their profile and acceptablity ahead of the next General election. I don't think they really want to win - I doubt McGuinness does anyway.

Apart from anything else he deserves a vote for doing the country the service of keeping Gallagher out of the Aras - if he has.

I would have had a reasonable amount of respect for McGuinness. Living where he lived he had not many options, he choose one he believed in and did what he thought was right. I don't agree with all his choices but I do understand why and how he made them.
However, following his performance on Monday night I would have any time time for him. Not so much the political part but the smirking when knowing what he was setting up someone. up. I just thought to myself did he have the same smirk when he set Hegarty up.

gandalf

LordSutch wrote: »

Martin McGuinness was in the Provisional IRA

He was much more than just in the Provos, he led them which makes him far more responsible for the atrocities than most of the members. He was the Northern Sector Commander, the man the Internal Security division reported to and took orders from. The Internal Security division murdered and tortured their own people.

I accept that the pIRA originally were set up to protect their community in Northern Ireland but quite soon after that they strayed into the realms of barbarity and in some instances carried out crimes far worse than those of their enemy the British Army.

Fitzerb

Martin keeps tells us to move and put the past behind us.
This week SF refused to attend an Anglo Irish conference because it was to be held in the Grand Hotel Brighton.

acer1000

Godge wrote: »

Are you talking about Jerry McCabe or Jean McConville? Doesn't it say something when then are so many victims of IRA/Sinn Fein that you need more than initials to identify them.

Gosh, that’s such a typical middle class stomach churning self righteous type of comment, that I’m sick of hearing. So vacuous but they haven’t got a clue that it is.

Try and expand your mind a bit. What about policies pursued by politicians here that have resulted in suicides and misery for many?

Chuck Stone

lugha wrote: »

Oh, but he is. He was murdered after Sinn Fein / IRA had told us that they had renounced violence and were pursuing the democratic path.

That would be to say that his death was more politically significant rather than him being more of a victim.

Liam Byrne

partnership wrote: »

I would agree with the poster who said what impact did they have on people in the republic. For me FF policies over the last twenty years have had a bigger impact on me than any conflict up the North.

Would you be so vocal if you had been walking past as they detonated one of their many bombs ?

Probably not - you'd be dead.

gandalf

acer1000 wrote: »

Gosh, that’s such a typical middle class stomach churning self righteous type of comment, that I’m sick of hearing. So vacuous but they haven’t got a clue that it is.

Try and expand your mind a bit. What about policies pursued by politicians here that have resulted in suicides and misery for many?

Actually that is a stomach churning apologist comment if I have ever seen one. The twisted logic that is used by some of the Sinn Fein Cheerleaders on here betrays a twisted morality that is quite worrying.

There is a world of difference in someone committing suicide and someone having their brains blown out after being abducted and tortured or shot while they sat in their car doing their job.

The one good thing that this whole Presidential circus has achieved is to educate those who don't remember the 1970's & the 1980's about the barbarity of the armed thugs of the pIRA and their apologists in Sinn Fein.

Chuck Stone

gandalf wrote: »

The one good thing that this whole Presidential circus has achieved is to educate those who don't remember the 1970's & the 1980's about the barbarity of the armed thugs of the pIRA and their apologists in Sinn Fein.

You say that as if SF are a diminishing reality on this island which it clearly isn't.

Also, there was plenty of barbarity and armed thugs operating on this island yet you choose to focus on that which affirms your worldview.

Being in the possession of a shiny badge or a specially coloured costume does not mean that your actions are any less barbaric.

Happyman42

[QUOTE=lugha;75155983 He was murdered after Sinn Fein / IRA had told us that they had renounced violence and were pursuing the democratic path. [/QUOTE]

Profoundly wrong. Read your history. The IRA did not renounce violence until the GFA was fully implemented in 2005

lugha

Happyman42 wrote: »

Profoundly wrong. Read your history. The IRA did not renounce violence until the GFA was fully implemented in 2005

The IRA announced their cessation of violence in 94 and, after throwing a strop, again a couple of years later. There certainly was a lot of huffing and puffing about issues such as whether the cessation was “permanent” and the issue of decommissioning and things largely about face saving but anyone who was around at that time (and I suspect you were not) were in no doubt that the clear message from republicans was that they were saying that they were done with their “war”. Your bizarre interpretation that the Sinn Fein boast in electoral fortunes that began around that time was because PIRA had not renounced violence and not because it was widely accepted that by some mechanism they would, is precisely that, your bizarre interpretation. I have heard no one else, be they supporter or critic of republicanism that subscribe to this fanciful view.

Dudess

mrbango wrote:

let me guess you are one of those obama supporters?? thought so

You... didn't let them answer your question, you just answered it yourself.

Baffling when people say "People are quick to criticise him for being a senior member of the IRA" as if that's kinda an unreasonable stance to take - damn right people are. Explain to me a good reason for them not to be? Even that huge mark on him aside, the fact he is a liar is surely enough to put him in the "not someone with integrity" category.

And then the whataboutery. Loyalist bigots are vile, the security forces did some vile things, the treatment of Catholics was disgusting - it all enrages me - but none of the above takes away from the killings of innocent people he was connected with. I don't think Jerry McCabe was a special case - how obnoxiously insensitive - but he is just one example.

To just brush aside the likes of that atrocity, Enniskillen, Warrington, and everything else... is messed up. :-/

I detest Ian Paisley too btw. Oh and yawn at the "middle-class" snipes. It isn't just middle-class people who have a problem with murder.

Chuck Stone

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think Jerry McCabe was a special case - how obnoxiously insensitive - but he is just one example.

There are many people on this site who like to use Jerry McCabe's death, which btw I think was a brutish and cowardly act, in an attempt to lend weight to their hatred of all things SF. I think that is incredibly insensitive.

SF is the largest political party in N.I. it's not as if all it's member and people who vote for them have a viciously murderous hive mind.

That would be a bit like saying everyone who voted Labour in the U.K. was supportive of the torture and killing of Baha Mousa by the British Army.

MazG

I think the reason that Det McCabe's murder keeps being brought up is because the standard line for IRA apologists is that the IRA were fighting the oppressor/protecting Northern Ireland Catholics. As Det McCabe was not an oppressor of Northern Ireland Catholics, this defense is breached so they then quickly move on to whataboutery.

The reason Det McCabe's murder keeps being brought up in relation to Mr McGuinness's presidential election bit is because he campaigned for the murderers to be released early under the Good Friday Agreement.

For the record, I am very very glad that there is now peace in Northern Ireland. I am grateful to all involved for bringing it about. However, that does not mean that I would elect any of them president.