UFC on Fox: Velasquez vs. Dos Santos

Secretariat

So is Carwin who couldn't get a sniff against JDS.

The point is people are suggesting JDS can be beaten by a good wrestler but there is no evidence to suggest this.

Richy06

But there is no evidence to the contrary either. Nobody with a wrestling background has really gotten the chance to put their wrestling into play. I don't think Cain was just intent on standing with Junior, I think he was trying to set his range and start setting up his takedowns with strikes. He just didn't quite get to the whole ground phase part because he kinda got clipped and knocked the **** out.
Brock Lesnar wouldn't do much better. He seems to like trying to bullrush TDs as opposed to setting them up.

scudzilla

I'm finding it quite funny how so many people are saying it'll be a long time before Junior is beaten, complete bollox.

I used to say the same thing but caught on pretty quick.

I thought Lyoto was gonna stay LHW champ for ages, he got owned by Shogun, i thoughht Shogun would hold the belt for some time, he got owned by Jones.

Same with GSP, then Serra goes and dumps him.

It's MMA, it's not a matter of if Junior is beaten, it's when

MrStuffins

Also, I can really see why people said it about Machida & GSP.

Machida had been in a wide array of different battles. He handled good wresters when they wrestled him, he showed he had great ground game and technique and he was and is a phenom on his feet.

GSP the same, could out wrestle everyone, could out BJJ everyone, could out strike everyone. How do you beat guys like these?

Well, completely forgetting that anyone can be beaten on any one night, JDS hasn't shown us anthing other than his superb stand up. He could well possess incredible wrestling skills and ground skills and everything else, but we've seen nothing to suggest that should someone decide to wrestle him or take him down and grapple on the mat that he could easily handle this.

This is why JDS at the moment looks anything but unbeatable. So far he's been able to get all of his opponents to play his game.

He's a superb fighter, World Champion and deservedly so. BUt let's not get carried away.

Secretariat

Richy06 wrote: »

But there is no evidence to the contrary either. Nobody with a wrestling background has really gotten the chance to put their wrestling into play.

Yes there is actually. Remember Shane Carwin, the guy who outwrestled Lesnar until he gassed, wasn't able to take JDS down for a prolonged period.

You are correct when you say no wrestler has got to implement their wrestling effectively, but that has to be accredited to JDS for not allowing fighters to enforce their gameplan.

The only time Cain took a clean shot from a striker prior to this fight he buckled, yet few suggested he could be beat by a good striker.

Now we have a guy who has no evident holes in his game, getting questioned about being able to cope with a good wrestler when he has in fact passed all tests with flying colours.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

The only time Cain took a clean shot from a striker prior to this fight he buckled, yet few suggested he could be beat by a good striker.

Now we have a guy who has no evident holes in his game, getting questioned about being able to cope with a good wrestler when he has in fact passed all tests with flying colours.

You see, you're confusing not having holes in his game with him not being tested on particular possible holes in his game.

I mean, I could say "I'm unbeatable at Chess. There's no evidence to say otherwise" which is true. Nobody has ever seen me play chess so how can they tell me i'm not unbeatable?

I've never played Chess in my life.

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is why JDS at the moment looks anything but unbeatable. So far he's been able to get all of his opponents to play his game.

This is somewhat contradictory imo, he has never let an opponent implement their gameplan effectively but he looks anything but unbeatable.

Fighters who seem unbeatable or go on long undefeated runs do just that, they negate their opponents main threat while implementing theirs.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

This is somewhat contradictory imo, he has never let an opponent implement their gameplan effectively but he looks anything but unbeatable.

Fighters who seem unbeatable or go on long undefeated runs do just that, they negate their opponents main threat while implementing theirs.

Indeed. Until an opponent is successful in implementing their game plan....... and the fighter gets beaten. Rendering the idea that they are unbeatable false.

I don't see how that's contradictory at all. There's a difference between not playing a game and being unbeatable at the game, as my chess analogy shows.

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

You see, you're confusing not having holes in his game with him not being tested on particular possible holes in his game.

I'm not actually. He has been tested on his wrestling defence, and has passed with flying colours. This is indisputable.

Cain didn't try to wrestle him but Nelson did, as did Carwin who is probably the second best wrestler in the division. Therefore, he has shown to have no weakness in his wrestling defence imo, people suggesting a good wrestler will beat him is guesswork, and well off the mark on factual evidence.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

I'm not actually. He has been tested on his wrestling defence, and has passed with flying colours. This is indisputable.

Cain didn't try to wrestle him but Nelson did, as did Carwin who is probably the second best wrestler in the division.

So this makes him unbeatable?

Tell me this, what happens when he comes up against, say, Brock Lesnar ok? Let's imagine Brock wants to take the fight to the ground. JDS, with all his TD defence working well, happens to slip and now he's on his back with Brock Lesnar on top of him.

Now what? Do you think JDS is unbeatable? do you think it's not possible for Brock, in top position, to beat JDS?

adamski8

MrStuffins wrote: »

Secretariat wrote: »

I'm not actually. He has been tested on his wrestling defence, and has passed with flying colours. This is indisputable.

Cain didn't try to wrestle him but Nelson did, as did Carwin who is probably the second best wrestler in the division.

So this makes him unbeatable?

Tell me this, what happens when he comes up against, say, Brock Lesnar ok? Let's imagine Brock wants to take the fight to the ground. JDS, with all his TD defence working well, happens to slip and now he's on his back with Brock Lesnar on top of him.

Now what? Do you think JDS is unbeatable? do you think it's not possible for Brock, in top position, to beat JDS?

Sure I could beat JDS too by that sort of logic. All I need to happen is at the very start of our match is for JDS to be stung in each eye by two bees, then in the confusion he slips, then he gets a small stroke and he turns into his front, I lock in a rear naked and it's all over.

MrStuffins

adamski8 wrote: »

Sure I could beat JDS too by that sort of logic. All I need to happen is at the very start of our match is for JDS to be stung in each eye by two bees, then in the confusion he slips, then he gets a small stroke and he turns into his front, I lock in a rear naked and it's all over.

This is just a stupid post :rolleyes:

You're missing the point.

My point is, the poster is refusing to take into account the possibility that JDS might find himself on his back. I used the "slip" because although I think JDS can be taken down, the poster thinks because he's fought wrestlers before that he won't be taken down in the future.

There are no instances to show us that, once JDS ends up on his back, that he is incapable of losing.

I can give you 100 instances of fighters losing balance in the cage. You can't give me any instances of bees stinging fighters and then having strokes. Stupid post!

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

So this makes him unbeatable?

Tell me this, what happens when he comes up against, say, Brock Lesnar ok? Let's imagine Brock wants to take the fight to the ground. JDS, with all his TD defence working well, happens to slip and now he's on his back with Brock Lesnar on top of him.

Now what? Do you think JDS is unbeatable? do you think it's not possible for Brock, in top position, to beat JDS?

When have I said he is unbeatable?

I was merely making a mockery of the theory that a good wrestler can beat JDS, when the facts tell a different story.

In relation to your theoretical event, it is completely ridiculous. Firstly you are relying on an unfortunate circumstance (JDS slipping) and it is in favour of the opponents main strength (Brock on top). If JDS slippped and Brock ended up on top I would not think it would be unfeasible for Brock to win, just like it would be possible for Maia to beat Anderson if he slipped and Maia got his back.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

When have I said he is unbeatable?

I was merely making a mockery of the theory that a good wrestler can beat JDS, when the facts tell a different story.

In relation to your theoretical event, it is completely ridiculous. Firstly you are relying on an unfortunate circumstance (JDS slipping) and it is in favour of the opponents main strength (Brock on top). If JDS slippped and Brock ended up on top I would not think it would be unfeasible for Brock to win, just like it would be possible for Maia to beat Anderson if he slipped and Maia got his back.

SO you feel it impossible that JDS can be beaten by a good wrestler, but you said it's not unfeasable for Brock to win should he end up on top.

The only factor stopping Brock from ending up on top of JDS is a takedown.

Are you saying it's impossible for Brock, or anyone, to take JDS down?

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

I think JDS can be taken down, the poster thinks because he's fought wrestlers before that he won't be taken down in the future.

Again, you are falsely accusing me of saying something. I never said JDS could not be taken down in future, just that his takedown defence has been sublime to date. Would you dispute this?

He may be taken down in future but he handled the second best wrestler in the division with ease.

My point, and always has been, is that suggesting a good wrestler can beat JDS or JDS may have a weakness for such style is totally wrong based on the facts.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

Again, you are falsely accusing me of saying something. I never said JDS could not be taken down in future, just that his takedown defence has been sublime to date. Would you dispute this?

You've repeatedly said that you dispute that a good wrestler COULD beat JDS.

Secretariat wrote: »

I don't buy this view that a good wrestler could beat JDS

Secretariat wrote: »

The point is people are suggesting JDS can be beaten by a good wrestler but there is no evidence to suggest this.

Secretariat wrote: »

I was merely making a mockery of the theory that a good wrestler can beat JDS, when the facts tell a different story.

To say that JDS could not be beaten by a wrestler just because he's beaten wrestlers in the past is ridiculous!

You've admitted he could be beaten if he ended up on his back against Brock. To say that JDS, or ANY fighter, is incapable of being taken down, is just silly!

Richy06

Secretariat wrote: »

I'm not actually. He has been tested on his wrestling defence, and has passed with flying colours. This is indisputable.

Cain didn't try to wrestle him but Nelson did, as did Carwin who is probably the second best wrestler in the division. Therefore, he has shown to have no weakness in his wrestling defence imo, people suggesting a good wrestler will beat him is guesswork, and well off the mark on factual evidence.

So you're going to rate Shane Carwin, a Div 2 NCAA runner up and subsequent champion as better then two Div 1 All Americans in Brock Lesnar and Cain Velasquez? The same Shane Carwin who doesn't use his wrestling to take the fight to the mat? The same Carwin who uses his wrestling to stand up and utilise his obvious power both at distance and in the clinch?

Also, to say that his wrestling and TD defence has been indisputably tested by Roy Nelson is just laughable! Roy has NO shot on him.

JDS obviously has great TD defence. It's one of his main weapons as he uses it to stay in his strongest range. He's basically a sprawl and brawl fighter - a type of fighter whose time is supposedly past if you listen to the varying MMA journos. He IS a brown belt under the Nogs though, so whilst we haven't exactly seen him grapple anyone, we might do. But I think it's logical to speculate as to how he would be beaten. Obviously a guy has to implement their gameplan on him for it to work....but it'll happen. Maybe not for ages, but it could be against Brock.

I think Lesnar beats Overeem, but if Lesnar gets through Overeem then I could see him beating Junior. He won't make the mistake of trying to stand too long with Junior, but then he may bull rush him and get caught on the way in. But if Lesnar can take Junior to the mat and keep him away from the cage, it could be a very long night for Junior.

*Edit*
Sorry, it would appear that JDS is a black belt.

Secretariat

Secretariat wrote: »

In relation to your theoretical event, it is completely ridiculous. Firstly you are relying on an unfortunate circumstance (JDS slipping) and it is in favour of the opponents main strength (Brock on top). If JDS slippped and Brock ended up on top I would not think it would be unfeasible for Brock to win, just like it would be possible for Maia to beat Anderson if he slipped and Maia got his back.

MrStuffins wrote: »

You've repeatedly said that you dispute that a good wrestler COULD beat JDS.








To say that JDS could not be beaten by a wrestler just because he's beaten wrestlers in the past is ridiculous!

You've admitted he could be beaten if he ended up on his back against Brock. To say that JDS, or ANY fighter, is incapable of being taken down, is just silly!

You seem to be nitpicking at my posts and your continual posts falsely accusing me of saying things is becoming rather tiresome.

Anybody can be beaten on any day, however, you do not seem to be acknowledging my point. Again, you have falsely suggested that I said he is incapable of being taken down, I did not. I am saying that his wrestling ability has been rock solid on past performances and there is absolutely no reason to think that he may be susceptible to a good wrestler or may have a weakness in this department. People on here have suggested that, I hope you can comprehend it this time but looking at the facts that theory is rubbish.

Your chess analogy suggests that his wrestling defence has not been tested, yet he brushed aside the second best wrestler in the division with ease.

I admitted Brock may beat him if JDS slipped and he got on top, just like I suggested that Maia could beat Anderson if he slipped and Maia took his back.

Secretariat wrote: »

In relation to your theoretical event, it is completely ridiculous. Firstly you are relying on an unfortunate circumstance (JDS slipping) and it is in favour of the opponents main strength (Brock on top). If JDS slippped and Brock ended up on top I would not think it would be unfeasible for Brock to win, just like it would be possible for Maia to beat Anderson if he slipped and Maia got his back.

I think this is going around in circles as you seem to be totally devoid of the facts that JDS wrestling defence has been immaculate to date, and suggesting he may be susceptible to a good wrestler is blowing hot air.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

You seem to be nitpicking at my posts and your continual posts falsely accusing me of saying things is becoming rather tiresome.

Nitpicking? I quoted your posts. you have continually said you dispute that fact that JDS could be beaten by a wrestler. Don't be backtracking now, stand by what you've said. It's right there in your posts.

You know this isn't true. Of course he could be beaten by a good wrestler.

I think this is going around in circles as you seem to be totally devoid of the facts that JDS wrestling defence has been immaculate to date, and suggesting he may be susceptible to a good wrestler is blowing hot air.

Yes, TO DATE! This does not mean he could not be beaten by a good wrestler.

And how is it hot air? My assertion that he COULD be beaten by a good wrestler is based on my years and years of watching MMA. Just because he hasn't so far, that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You've even admitted that Brock could beat him if he got on top of him.

Make up your mind, either he COULD get beaten by a wrestler or he COULDN'T!

To think that just because there are no instances of JDS being out wrestled in the past means he could not be beaten by a good wrestler in the future is very naive of you.

Secretariat

Richy06 wrote: »

So you're going to rate Shane Carwin, a Div 2 NCAA runner up and subsequent champion as better then two Div 1 All Americans in Brock Lesnar and Cain Velasquez? The same Shane Carwin who doesn't use his wrestling to take the fight to the mat? The same Carwin who uses his wrestling to stand up and utilise his obvious power both at distance and in the clinch?

Also, to say that his wrestling and TD defence has been indisputably tested by Roy Nelson is just laughable! Roy has NO shot on him.

Hi Richy, you also seem to have the stuffings syndrome of misreading my posts or falsely suggesting I said something.

I did not classify Carwin as better than Cain as a wrestler, hence why I said he is the second best wrestler in the division.

Not sure are you aware of it but the difference between the NCAA division 1 and 2 is a lot closer than you are suggesting.

Furthermore you said Carwin uses his wrestling to keep the fight standing, did you miss the fight where Carwin continually took Lesnar down in the first round at 116? When both men were fresh in the first round it was clear that Lesnar had a lot of difficulty dealing with Shane's wrestling, hence why I would give Carwin the nod in this department.

I would think that JDS brushing past Carwin's takedown attempts with ease in their fight shows how indisputably tested his wrestling defence is. I was not using Roy Nelson as the benchmark for this, merely identifying him as another wrestler who has had zero success in this department.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

Hi Richy, you also seem to have the stuffings syndrome of misreading my posts or falsely suggesting I said something.

I quoted your posts. It's quite clear what you said.

I was not using Roy Nelson as the benchmark for this, merely identifying him as another wrestler who has had zero success in this department.

Roy Nelson isn't a wrestler.

Richy06

No, I didn't misread your post.

But you said that Carwin is better then both Cain and Brock as far as wrestling goes. That is just not true. So therefore, he might make no 3 on the "best wrestler" list in the division?

Carwin's usual tactic had been to keep the fight standing and he is usually not a ground fighter. Also, calling Roy Nelson a wrestler is just plain false - he comes from a BJJ background.

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

Nitpicking? I quoted your posts. you have continually said you dispute that fact that JDS could be beaten by a wrestler. Don't be backtracking now, stand by what you've said. It's right there in your posts.

You know this isn't true. Of course he could be beaten by a good wrestler.




Yes, TO DATE! This does not mean he could not be beaten by a good wrestler.

And how is it hot air? My assertion that he COULD be beaten by a good wrestler is based on my years and years of watching MMA. Just because he hasn't so far, that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You've even admitted that Brock could beat him if he got on top of him.

Make up your mind, either he COULD get beaten by a wrestler or he COULDN'T!

To think that just because there are no instances of JDS being out wrestled in the past means he could not be beaten by a good wrestler in the future is very naive of you.

I've admitted Brock could beat him if he got on top but so could Pat Barry, this is MMA afterall. Your silly theoretical event of that taking place is just that, quite silly. Please refer to my Maia - Silva reference if you don't understand.

It has been suggested on here that he may be susceptible to a good wrestler, this is what I am disputing. He had zero trouble defending the takedowns of Shane Carwin who is the second (maybe third for some people)best wrestler in the division. Taking this into account I see no substance to agree with the view expressed on this thread that JDS may be susceptible to a good wrestler. You might need to take your time but try to acknowledge it this time!

I see no reason to discuss this further with you as it is a roundabout effect.

Secretariat

Richy06 wrote: »

No, I didn't misread your post.

But you said that Carwin is better then both Cain and Brock as far as wrestling goes. That is just not true. So therefore, he might make no 3 on the "best wrestler" list in the division?

Where did I say Carwin has better wrestling than Cain?!

If you are so certain you haven't misread my posts than you must by fabricating imaginary ones from me so if you think I said the above.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

I've admitted Brock could beat him if he got on top but so could Pat Barry, this is MMA afterall. Your silly theoretical event of that taking place is just that, quite silly. Please refer to my Maia - Silva reference if you don't understand.

It wasn't silly. i don't think it's silly to say Maia could beat Silva either. Of course he could. He's one of the best BJJ players ion the world and possibly the best BJJ player in all of MMA.

It has been suggested on here that he may be susceptible to a good wrestler, this is what I am disputing. He had zero trouble defending the takedowns of Shane Carwin who is the second (maybe third for some people)best wrestler in the division. Taking this into account I see no substance to agree with the view expressed on this thread that JDS may be susceptible to a good wrestler. You might need to take your time but try to acknowledge it this time!

That's all well and good. But to think that just because in the past Carwin couldn't take him down that he wouldn't be susceptible to a good wrestler is a flawed thought process.

Richy06

Secretariat wrote: »

Where did I say Carwin has better wrestling than Cain?!

If you are so certain you haven't misread my posts than you must by fabricating imaginary ones from me so if you think I said the above.

Sorry, you are right. But you did call him the second best wrestler in the division.

Having said all that, we're going to have Daniel Cormier, Fabricio Werdum and Josh Barnett coming to town soon....so we'll see who comes out on top once the division starts to heat up and we don't have to suffer the likes of Pat Barry any longer.

Secretariat

MrStuffins wrote: »

I quoted your posts. It's quite clear what you said.

Quite clear for most people who can rationally comprehend other posts, not quite clear enough for you though it seems. I never said he was unbeatable or would not be taken down in future as you previously accused me of.

MrStuffins wrote: »

So this makes him unbeatable?

MrStuffins wrote: »

the poster thinks because he's fought wrestlers before that he won't be taken down in the future.

MrStuffins wrote: »

To say that JDS, or ANY fighter, is incapable of being taken down, is just silly!

Anyway, I will bow out with a statement I posted prior to Saturdays fight,

"A era do a cigano é sobre nós..."

Secretariat

Richy06 wrote: »

Sorry, you are right. But you did call him the second best wrestler in the division.

I did, and I simplified my viewpoint on that for you in my penultimate post.

Richy06

No need for simplification. I just misread the single bit in question. Come down off your high horse a bit though, like a good man. See? Everyone can be condescending.

I still say his ground game has not been tested. But then if he keeps it from going there, he's not exactly going to need it.

unknown13

scudzilla wrote: »

I thought Lyoto was gonna stay LHW champ for ages, he got owned by Shogun, i thoughht Shogun would hold the belt for some time, he got owned by Jones.

The Lyoto Machida was the funniest bandwagon I have ever seen in MMA until I remembered the Luiz Cane bandwagon.

It is hilarious these bandwagons, "Oh Luiz Cane is going to be champion soon", "he is has got to be top 5", "Cane is going to a great in the sport".........................but he has only just beat Sokojoudu.

Bandwagons are hilarious in MMA, they have just become such a massive part with the fans, mainly newer ones and they realise when they understand a lot more of MMA, they realise what shít they actually talked. Welcome to MMA, if you go undefeated in your career, you must have been the best ever fighter in MMA. Everyone loses in MMA and going undefeated in this sport is a complete and utter myth.

MrStuffins

unknown13 wrote: »

Welcome to MMA, if you go undefeated in your career, you must have been the best ever fighter in MMA. Everyone loses in MMA and going undefeated in this sport is a complete and utter myth.

As Matt Hughes says, if you're unbeaten in MMA you've never fought anyone!

Richy06

Nutthuggers, bandwagons etc are a fact of life in MMA.

unknown13

MrStuffins wrote: »

As Matt Hughes says, if you're unbeaten in MMA you've never fought anyone!

He is 100% right. All the UFC champs have a loss on their records and all previous ones have lost aswell.

Secretariat

unknown13 wrote: »

JDS can be beaten no doubt about that but it will have to be against a good wrestler or Overeem. They are the only styles that can beat JDS at this moment.

I would be interested in hearing your rational for this statement unknown13 and why you think it will be against a good wrestler or Overeem when his wrestling defence and striking have been the two most dominant aspects of his game.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

I would be interested in hearing your rational for this statement unknown13 and why you think it will be against a good wrestler or Overeem when his wrestling defence and striking have been the two most dominant aspects of his game.

I agree with Unknown13, accept JDS could also be beaten by a good BJJ player like Frank Mir.

My reasoning is:

A good wrestler could beat him because i've seen nothing to suggest JDS is anything special on his back. A good wrestler like Brock could take him down, control him and GnP him.

Reem could beat him because he's a world class striker. He's a K1 champion. i think his Boxing would be perhaps s good as JDS but Reem also has world class kicking, something JDS has not got (or at least hasn't shown).

He could also be beaten by a strong BJJ player. The one loss on his record is from an armbar from the bottom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H2IROtJgF0

CageWager

I tend to see both sides of the argument as equally valid. YES, we've never seen JDS being anything but skilled at TD defence, but NO we're never seem him on his back with a Brock Lesnar on top of him.

Maybe if Brock could get him down he would use the butterfly hooks to get back to his feet like Cain did, or maybe he'd get stuck like Frank Mir in the second fight and get smashed.

There's way too many variables to make a simple statement like, "he cant be taken down" or "he cant be beaten standing" for any fighter. Anyone can be taken down, anyone can be KO'd.

Maybe Overeem will do a similar job on Brock and KO him after a minute in their fight and we'll be having a different argument.

Remmy

Richy06 wrote: »

Nutthuggers, bandwagons etc are a fact of life in MMA.

+1 . Related to that I used to enjoy looking at the sherdog forums but the total swings of opinion after killed it for me. The once unbeatable Cain now has a glass jaw and will never beat JDS.

pauldoo

Remmy wrote: »

Richy06 wrote: »

Nutthuggers, bandwagons etc are a fact of life in MMA.

They are in every walk of life!

Im surprised people didn't see this result coming. watching it with friends i predicted a second round tko for jds(easy to say now,i know). jds has shown he is hard to take down,is powerful and is a good boxer. the last good striker Cain fought was kongo and he dropped him 3 times(i think) plus Cain has been out for over a year

empacher

any man can be beaten on any night by the most unorthdox way, fluke guillotines, crazy caperiora kicks

Mellor

Great win for JDS, must admit that i'm pissed off though.

Just like after Cains win, the nuthuggers and the nonsense talkers.

It's so so so ludacris to suggest that anyone can't be beaten by any style.

JDS handled Carwin, a div 2 wrestler who replies on strikes, so that means that every single wrestler can't beat him. GTFO
This is MMA, not rock paper scissors. The same 2 guys could fight 5 times and each time we could have 7 different results.

If we could rewind and have Cain v JDS again, I still put Cain as fav. He took a risk and got caugth.
Lesnar Overeem is pretty big.

Secretariat

Mellor wrote: »

the nuthuggers and the nonsense talkers.

It's so so so ludacris to suggest that anyone can't be beaten by any style.

JDS handled Carwin, a div 2 wrestler who replies on strikes, so that means that every single wrestler can't beat him. GTFO

I didn't say that and referring to me as a nuthugger is bulll**** as I predicted a JDS win before the fight.

What's ludicrous is people saying JDS may be susceptible to wrestlers when he has demolished them all so far, including your beloved Cain.

I never suggested every single wrestler couldn't beat him either, read my posts you dyslexic fúck.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

I never suggested every single wrestler couldn't beat him either

That's simply a lie.

Secretariat wrote: »

I don't buy this view that a good wrestler could beat JDS as there is no evidence to suggest it would be the case.

Secretariat wrote: »

The point is people are suggesting JDS can be beaten by a good wrestler but there is no evidence to suggest this.

Secretariat wrote: »

I was merely making a mockery of the theory that a good wrestler can beat JDS, when the facts tell a different story.

Secretariat wrote: »

My point, and always has been, is that suggesting a good wrestler can beat JDS or JDS may have a weakness for such style is totally wrong based on the facts.

All of these posts suggest that you think JDS would not be beaten by a wrestler.

Secretariat wrote: »

read my posts you dyslexic fúck.

Wow!

CageWager

Secretariat wrote: »

What's ludicrous is people saying JDS may be susceptible to wrestlers when he has demolished them all so far,

Just out of interest, do you think it's ludicrous to suggest that JDS may be susceptible to a KO? (given that he's never been knocked out, but may face a high level striker in Overeem)

Secretariat

Secretariat wrote: »

Anybody can be beaten on any day, however, you do not seem to be acknowledging my point. Again, you have falsely suggested that I said he is incapable of being taken down, I did not. I am saying that his wrestling ability has been rock solid on past performances and there is absolutely no reason to think that he may be susceptible to a good wrestler or may have a weakness in this department. People on here have suggested that, I hope you can comprehend it this time but looking at the facts that theory is rubbish.

Secretariat wrote: »

It has been suggested on here that he may be susceptible to a good wrestler, this is what I am disputing. He had zero trouble defending the takedowns of Shane Carwin who is the second (maybe third for some people)best wrestler in the division. Taking this into account I see no substance to agree with the view expressed on this thread that JDS may be susceptible to a good wrestler. You might need to take your time but try to acknowledge it this time!

MrStuffins wrote: »

That's simply a lie.









All of these posts suggest that you think JDS would not be beaten by a wrestler.



Wow!

They were phrased badly on my part, pity you left out bolded one which clarified my stance on the issue.

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

They were phrased badly on my part, pity you left out bolded one which clarified my stance on the issue.

I didn't need to add your bolded quote. It doesn't say anything different.

You have an idea that just because JDS has KOd Cain Velasquez that he's invincible against wrestlers. Bullsh*t!

You don't think he's susceptable to wrestlers, but admit he could be susceptable to being beaten should he end up on the ottom against Brock (a good wrestler).

This leaves the option that you think JDS can't be taken down. he's not a bloody Double Decker bus, he's a man!

MrStuffins

tad00 wrote: »

Just out of interest, do you think it's ludicrous to suggest that JDS may be susceptible to a KO? (given that he's never been knocked out, but may face a high level striker in Overeem)

According to the poster's logic, you need some sort of precedence to exist before something can become possible.

JDS hasn't been beaten by a wrestler and has handled a good wrestler in the past, therefore he can't be beaten by a wrestler.

John Jones has never been KO'd and has had many stand up battles. He even fought Shogun. Therefore he can't be beaten by a striker.

Frankie Edgar has never been submitted, even though he fought World BJJ Champion BJ Penn twice. Therefore he can't be beaten or subbed by a BJJ player.

....... and so on!

Secretariat

They are totally different actually, one is suggesting he can't be beaten by a wrestler (worded wrongly on my part) and the other is stating that people who think JDS may be susceptible to wrestlers is wrong based on facts. I'm sure you aren't devoid of the basic ability to comprehend that? This is my point all along, and it is indisputable. The facts are there, JDS has not shown any susceptibility to wrestlers! Accept it!

Furthermore, of course it is possible for JDS to be beat if Brock is on top but I was never disputing that.

I am finished now because quite frankly, you're a bit of a retard Stuffins (cue smart response that gains many thanks).

My point on the whole issue, and hopefully everybody will take this in, is that those who suggest JDS may be susceptible to a good wrestler (Stuffings and unknown13 so far) are totally discounting the facts of JDS previous engagements with wrestlers.

CageWager

I think what Secretariat is trying to say isnt that JDS can't be beaten by a wrestler, rather he is no more likely to be beaten by a wrestler than a striker. That's your opinion, fair enough.

Secretariat wrote: »

I am finished now

Probably for the best

MrStuffins

Secretariat wrote: »

They are totally different actually, one is suggesting he can't be beaten by a wrestler (worded wrongly on my part) and the other is stating that people who think JDS may be susceptible to wrestlers is wrong based on facts. I'm sure you aren't devoid of the basic ability to comprehend that? This is my point all along, and it is indisputable. The facts are there, JDS has not shown any susceptibility to wrestlers! Accept it!

Nope. Based on the fact that he hasn't really been dragged into a wrestling match yet, there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be susceptable to a good wrestler.

I am finished now because quite frankly, you're a bit of a retard Stuffins (cue smart response that gains many thanks).

Resorting to personal abuse to try make yourself feel better. Very good poster. I hope you go to bed feeling that even though you have no clue what you're on about and nobody agrees with you, you've won because you've called a complete stranger a retard on the interweb. Bravo sir!

My point on the whole issue, and hopefully everybody will take this in, is that those who suggest JDS may be susceptible to a good wrestler (Stuffings and unknown13 so far) are totally discounting the facts of JDS previous engagements with wrestlers.

Nope, we just disagree with you.

Mellor

wow. just wow.

Secretariat wrote: »

I didn't say that and referring to me as a nuthugger is bulll**** as I predicted a JDS win before the fight.

First of all, where did I say nuthugger refered to you? Where did I even mention your name or reference anything you said at that point?

After Lesnar, Machida, Jones, Cain, and pretty much every time the belt changes hands. Somebody says how they can't see [new champ] being beat.
I was pointing out how its ludacris.

What's ludicrous is people saying JDS may be susceptible to wrestlers when he has demolished them all so far, including your beloved Cain.

I never suggested every single wrestler couldn't beat him either, read my posts you dyslexic fúck.

Well, thats exactly what you suggested. As quoted above.

So you couldn't understand my post, and you can't read/remember your own. Yet you call others dyslexic and retarded. Fuck off you clown. What are you 12?