Article: Emigrants need the option to come home, not pity

djpbarry

An article in today’s Times provides some much-needed perspective on emigration:

Much has been made of the ranks of Irish emigrants cheering on the Ireland team during the World Cup in New Zealand. For many observers this is the public manifestation of our abject failure to provide enough opportunities for our people at home.

There is another way of looking at those scenes in New Zealand. Irish people have proved themselves, once again, when bereft of opportunity at home, to be amazingly enterprising, brave and resilient.

These few lines in particular ring true for me, personally:

Being a returned emigrant gives a person a sense of perspective on Ireland. I like Ireland a whole lot more for not having lived in it all my life. Most returned emigrants will say the same thing. Despite Ireland’s manifest problems and lousy weather, this is still a great country to live in.

I’ve not been out of Ireland long (and I’ve not migrated very far), but the article reflects many of my own views on the subject (although, obviously, everyone's going to have their own opinion). Portraying emigration as some sort of “last throw of the dice” for everyone involved is ridiculous and it doesn’t reflect reality - I wasn't aware of Colm Tóibín's recent comments on the subject, but now that I am, I dislike him even more. Nobody is going to convince me that Irish people are being forced, in droves, to migrate all the way to Australia and New Zealand.

RichardAnd

I know people that have left Ireland, they're doing well in their new homes and one guy is even engaged to a local he met, I doubt he'll be home. Emigration is probably something that seems terrible before hand but in reality, is not so bad. I once had to move to Athlone from Dublin for contract work and whilst the first week was terrible, I gradually got used to place though I do think it's a bit of a kip

Of course, the fact that emigration is part and parcel of Irish life is not something to be proud of. Excluding the brief period of "full" employment, every generation since the famine has had to deal with emigration as a very real possibility and that's quite sad. The prospect of being unable to make a living here has greatly put me off wanting a family because realistically, I don't want to bring someone into the world when all they will grow up to experience is uncertainty.

Permabear

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RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

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Those things you describe are the fault of the Irish people, not Ireland herself. I really do love living here because Ireland has a natural beauty and an extremely rich history and traditional culture. I have a fascination with celtic myth and there is a quality to this island that is magical, if one takes the time to look for it. As for the weather, well I happen to like the temperate climate as I loath heat

The Irish state, such as it is, isn't anything exceptional but you need to look beyond all that. And I'm not just comfortable in a bubble, I'm quite ambitious and driven about certain things. Ireland suits me, it may not be like that for everyone but if I could live anywhere in the world, a nice and peaceful home in the middle of no-where would be for me.

Permabear

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RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

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Ireland herself is the Ireland that was here before us and will be here after us, the soil beneath your feet. The bungalows and estates are passing things, they won't last but the landscape will. And yes you are right, all countries have a history but each is unique and special. Ireland's own history is captivating to me to a far greater extent and I've studied everything from Roman military history to Inca and Aztec religious beliefs.

You might dislike this country but what you think is not necessarily ubiquitous or even correct. To me and many others, this is a special place that we're proud to call home. Ireland may seem backwards in the rather dull light of the modern world but there's more to life than the financial times.

Permabear

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RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

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You're clearly set on an opinion and I generally don't try to sway people from what they choose to believe. Thus, I'll leave it at that because, no offence, this is like debating ethics with a Romulan.

But yes, I do like Yeats. Why wouldn't I, he was a genius?

djpbarry

RichardAnd wrote: »

Of course, the fact that emigration is part and parcel of Irish life is not something to be proud of.

It makes no more or less sense to be “proud” of migration than it does to be proud of trade. They are both just parts of life – economies cannot function without them. Even during the boom, tens of thousands of people were leaving Ireland every year. I don’t see that as either good or bad – it’s just something that happens.

djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, I don’t know about the whole country, but I think Dublin’s a pretty good place to live and this is reflected in recently published quality of life indices.

Permabear wrote: »

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True, but there are also an awful lot of places that lag behind Ireland in those stakes. I think the one area where Ireland probably falls down is in terms of opportunities, but it’s a small country – there’s only so much you can do there before you begin to look further afield (depending on what it is you do, of course).

Permabear wrote: »

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Likewise, you can’t expect everyone to share your feelings for the US. I mean, I like the US, but certain parts of it. I like New York for example, but I don’t think I’d like to live there. I could however see myself living in San Francisco, but I have serious reservations about the lack of holidays.

Permabear wrote: »

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I think that’s pretty unfair. Granted, the influence of Catholicism can still be felt in Ireland, but the same could be said for several other European countries. And I really don’t think anyone could say that, relative to the US, Ireland is backward or socially conservative (although attitudes vary wildly, depending on what region of the US we’re referring to). I also see a lot more social conservatism here in the UK than I ever did in Ireland.

Debtocracy

Permabear wrote: »

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What decade are you living in. The U.S. these days has an incredibly low social mobility for a Western country. In the U.S., if you have drive, energy and ambition you will end up with a pile of debt. Sucess in the U.S. depends on what family you are born into. I'd take Ireland any day over the U.S., though I'd probably take any Western country over the U.S. If your children want to live the American dream they should go to Denmark or Canada.

WesternZulu

For anyone that has left and state that Ireland is a great place to live I think that it comes because the person grew up here.

More than likely all his/her family are there, their friends and places that they have close to their heart.

It would take a hell of a country to outdo all of that for most people.

Ireland is a great country and a lot of people like myself have a sense of place and could be living in a perfect utopia but if it is not home then it'll always be a distant 2nd best

_Kaiser_

I'd have to agree with Permabear on this one

No offense to RichardAnd but "magic and leprechauns" and what not (which is what springs to mind when I read though the posts) is all very well but you can't just "look past" or ignore the state of modern Ireland - a country which is on it's knees as a result of decisions made by a ruling class of (primarily) teachers, overpaid civil servants, and lobbyists and which - if the news coming out of the latest EU "rescue plan" is to be believed - is only likely to get worse as we pick up the tab for the new trillion Euro bailout fund that has also "magically" appeared in the last few days, just so the same teachers can get a gold star on their copybooks.

Side note: the quote referenced on Breaking News's latest story says it all to me:

In the early hours of the morning, as rumour spread that eurozone leaders had finally agreed an economic rescue package, one official at the talks in Brussels texted a question to a colleague in the inner sanctum of the negotiating room.

“Is there a deal?” he asked.

Within seconds the reply came back: “Yes, but we don’t understand how.”

Read more

But I digress...

Ireland is still a place run on the ethos of "who ya know"/"it depends on who ya get" and of course the "ah shure it'll be grand" mentality.
A place where politicians spend time dealing with potholes and "being seen" to do something rather than ACTUALLY doing something - with the exception being lining their own pockets and that of their friends/family, and a people who have no sense of civic or national responsibility or pride (beyond the whole "800 years" rubbish) - instead following a "can't someone ELSE do it" mindset, which includes (apparently) paying the bills they ran up in the "good times".

Ireland today is almost entirely dependent on foreign investment for jobs for its people - I might add temporary/transient investment too as many of these same companies move further east in search of cheaper labour - leaving thousands of unemployable (without significant retraining and upskilling) callcentre and manufacturing workers behind them.

Ireland today is still almost entirely about Dublin which is grand if you live in the place (and I say that as an Irishman and a Dub myself - albeit one who commutes into it these days) but not so much if you don't.

Beyond a few underused and overpriced/tolled motorways, much of the country has seen little investment or change in the "good times" (I don't count thousands of shoddy houses and apartments in the middle of nowhere with no services/facilities as "investment" - no matter what the buyers thought!) and where something as (for example) essential as reliable high-speed broadband in the modern online/business world is still a pipe dream for many.

Ireland today is a country where those who didn't "go mad" in the aforementioned "good times" are now being sucked dry to keep our EU masters happy, as well as pay the also aforementioned overpaid elite, and those who are too lazy/feckless to work (I'm not including those people who were made redundant through no fault of their own and would do anything to get back to work here - something that seems lost on many posters in this forum).

I could ramble on (and I know it is a bit of a ramble/rant) but I don't see very much to be proud or happy about in Modern Ireland today and if I had the opportunity myself I'd be gone in a heartbeat and would not look back.

djpbarry

WesternZulu wrote: »

For anyone that has left and state that Ireland is a great place to live I think that it comes because the person grew up here.

More than likely all his/her family are there, their friends and places that they have close to their heart.

I think there’s more to it than that. Most of my family are still in Ireland, but pretty much all of my friends have left, so I don’t really have that big an emotional attachment to the place. I just feel that, relative to other cities in the world, and certainly relative to London, Dublin fairs pretty well in the quality of life stakes. That’s not to say I don’t like London. I do, but there’s pros and cons to both. I’ve visited a lot of other cities in the world and while I’ve encountered many that I really liked, I’ve yet to find somewhere that has made me think “Wow, I missed out on so much in Dublin”.

I’ve just realised that I mentioned quality of life surveys earlier without stating that such surveys are obviously subjective and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Cities that feature near the top of such lists are often among the dullest I’ve ever experienced (Zurich and Vienna, for example).

Permabear

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djpbarry

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I could ramble on (and I know it is a bit of a ramble/rant) but I don't see very much to be proud or happy about in Modern Ireland today and if I had the opportunity myself I'd be gone in a heartbeat and would not look back.

So you have absolutely nothing positive to say about Ireland? Nothing at all?

djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

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I’m basing my opinion on Dublin because I haven’t lived anywhere else in Ireland. I can’t offer an opinion on Donegal, for example, as I haven’t lived there.

Permabear wrote: »

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I’ve been keeping an eye out for opportunities in the US for a few years now. I spent a summer there when I was a student and I would quite like to go back and spend a bit more time there. But I’ve yet to find a position that offers more than about two weeks’ holidays – that’s a bit too restrictive for me.

Permabear wrote: »

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That’s true - I’m certainly not denying that there are some very conservative people in Ireland.

Permabear wrote: »

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But the church is losing its grip. The education system is dominated by Catholicism, yet I’d wager that the overwhelming majority of young people in Ireland are not practicing Catholics.

Permabear wrote: »

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Are they all Irish?

Permabear wrote: »

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The Late, Late Show is not something I’m overly familiar with, so it wouldn’t be fair to comment, but I will say it would be something I would associate with my parents’ generation (and their parents’).

Permabear wrote: »

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Sure, but do other European leaders routinely criticise churches?

CiaranC

Permabear wrote: »

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If only Galts Gulch was real you could move there

irishh_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

An article in today’s Times provides some much-needed perspective on emigration:

These few lines in particular ring true for me, personally:

I’ve not been out of Ireland long (and I’ve not migrated very far), but the article reflects many of my own views on the subject (although, obviously, everyone's going to have their own opinion). Portraying emigration as some sort of “last throw of the dice” for everyone involved is ridiculous and it doesn’t reflect reality - I wasn't aware of Colm Tóibín's recent comments on the subject, but now that I am, I dislike him even more. Nobody is going to convince me that Irish people are being forced, in droves, to migrate all the way to Australia and New Zealand.

i find it somewhat peculiar that while us irish are flooding the likes of new zealand , kiwis are leaving for australia in record numbers

_Kaiser_

djpbarry wrote: »

So you have absolutely nothing positive to say about Ireland? Nothing at all?

Not particularly no - and I don't take any pleasure in saying that for what it's worth.

I've worked since I finished college and paid my way and did things the "honest and right" way (more fool me perhaps, but that's how I was raised - with a sense of responsibility). I was made redundant in late 2009 and found myself unemployed for a year when, despite my best efforts, it was almost impossible to even get (non-timewasting agency) interviews.

I knew nothing about the social welfare system and when I went for help and advice, the attitudes I encountered were that I was an inconvenience and liability - as if I was some sort of waster junkie scumbag who has never (nor wants to ever) worked a day in his life! I say that too as both a private and (former) public sector worker myself.

Anytime I've had cause to ring an Irish company or state agency for something, you get the same lazy, disinterested, incompetent (in many cases) attitude that makes it a genuine trial to get anywhere unless you're prepared to put hours in following up on it and brow-beating people into doing their jobs! The concepts of "customer service", "ownership" or "going the extra mile" are foreign and dirty to many of these people.

Irish people (generally) in my experience are great at whinging at each other in the pubs or online, but will do VERY little to try and change things - anyone who does, or who stands out from the herd at all, is decryed as some sort of "heritic". In fact, I truely believe that the only way Irish people WOULD stand up and be counted is if they brought in prohibition and banned cigarettes.

Irish politicians are merely an extension of this - although we all whinge about how they get away with these things, how many of us say this because we're just jealous we can't get away with it ourselves (or "have the balls" to - an attitude which speaks for itself.)

So no, while Ireland as a country/patch of land may have the natural beauty and rich history going for it - the (modern) Irish as a people are still too greedy, lazy, selfish and immature to be called a "modern first world nation" in my opinion.

We SHOULD and CAN do better and until THAT attitude becomes the prevailing one, and we demand better of our elected officials and each other generally, no, I stand by my assertion that we don't have much to be proud of at all.

Permabear

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irishh_bob

Permabear wrote: »

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ive never been to the usa but i will take your word for it that america is the greatest country in the world , i have however lived and worked in both australia and new zealand , would take us irish any day of the week over them , i dont care what anyone says , its hard to beat us paddys for charecther , personality and unpredictability

irishh_bob

Debtocracy wrote: »

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permabears america begins at the gate of yale and ends at the libary in harvard , if he could do it ( and afford it ) , everyone can

irishh_bob

Permabear wrote: »

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compared to much of ( WASP.ish ) middle america , ireland is a country full of screaming liberals , i happen to believe irish people are more tollerant than most nationalitys , we are not pompous , dogmatic or overbearing with our views , sure we might be somewhat hazy on rules and regulations but we score high year on year when it comes to lack of corruption league tables , go to eastern europe or even southern europe and you will see what real corruption is , as for dawkins , the guy would be lucky to escape with his life in somewhere like missisippi , im sure he can take an audience in dublin having a chuckle at this beliefs , beliefs that i share with him i might add

endabob1

As an emigrant of close to 20 years, I prefer the Ireland of recession to the one of Celtic Tiger, nothing would have dragged me home during the last decade.
Ireland became a vile horrible place full of arrogant, get rich or get lost characters, if you don't have a villa in Spain and an investment property in ballygobackwards you're a nobody & a loser, if you don't change the car every 6 minutes and fly to the Galway races by helicopter you're a nobody.
I wouldn't wish unemployment on anyone, I have family members that are struggling, but by their own admission they "got carried away" during the boom years, re-mortgaging the house for the trip to Disneyland....
But I do like the fact that an air of humility seems to have returned.

djpbarry

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ireland is still a place run on the ethos of "who ya know"/"it depends on who ya get"...

So “who you know” only matters in Ireland? George W.’s election as president of the US had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his Dad held the same office? The fact that Boris Johnson and David Cameron were school buddies is just a remarkable coincidence?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Anytime I've had cause to ring an Irish company or state agency for something, you get the same lazy, disinterested, incompetent (in many cases) attitude that makes it a genuine trial to get anywhere unless you're prepared to put hours in following up on it and brow-beating people into doing their jobs! The concepts of "customer service", "ownership" or "going the extra mile" are foreign and dirty to many of these people.

Again, you think that’s unique to Ireland? Seriously? Email a council in the London and this is the sort of automated response you receive:

“Thank you for contacting ******* Council by email. Your message has been received and we aim to respond within 10 working days.”

You’ll be lucky to hear from them within 2 weeks.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So no, while Ireland as a country/patch of land may have the natural beauty and rich history going for it - the (modern) Irish as a people are still too greedy, lazy, selfish and immature to be called a "modern first world nation" in my opinion.

Well that’s just a ridiculous generalisation.

Armin_Tamzarian

endabob1 wrote: »

As an emigrant of close to 20 years, I prefer the Ireland of recession to the one of Celtic Tiger, nothing would have dragged me home during the last decade.
Ireland became a vile horrible place full of arrogant, get rich or get lost characters, if you don't have a villa in Spain and an investment property in ballygobackwards you're a nobody & a loser, if you don't change the car every 6 minutes and fly to the Galway races by helicopter you're a nobody.
I wouldn't wish unemployment on anyone, I have family members that are struggling, but by their own admission they "got carried away" during the boom years, re-mortgaging the house for the trip to Disneyland....
But I do like the fact that an air of humility seems to have returned.

This.
I've noticed this too, that some humility has returned to the place.
I quite like Ireland again now but despised the place in the boom years and was glad to have left it.
I agree with most of what Kaiser says and some of what Permabear says but
what I like about Ireland is hard to quantify and is most definitely down to the fact that it's where I am from.
I want to live in Ireland but I have no desire to work here.

Sand

@Armin_Tamzarian

I've noticed this too, that some humility has returned to the place.

How exactly have you noticed this? Some people would say Ireland is consumed with black depression and vindictive almost corrosive pessimism. Populist witch hunts against public hate figures and whipping boys. Or despair at the prospect of long term unemployment, economic failure and emigration.

Or is that what you mean by humility?

alphanine

Permabear wrote: »

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I did exactly the same and I agree with you 100%. Just reading boards.ie posts makes you realise how bitter people are in Ireland. Ireland is full of bitter little drunks who hate to see anyone doing well, but I still love the country and the majority of the people are great. Emigration can be positive for life experiences, your CV and access to way better women!

robp

Permabear wrote: »

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Intolerant out of touch nonsense.

irishh_bob

alphanine wrote: »

I did exactly the same and I agree with you 100%. Just reading boards.ie posts makes you realise how bitter people are in Ireland. Ireland is full of bitter little drunks who hate to see anyone doing well, but I still love the country and the majority of the people are great. Emigration can be positive for life experiences, your CV and access to way better women!

i dont believe irish people are on average anymore bitter than other nationalitys , in fact , i believe we are a more caring and decent people than most nations

robp

irishh_bob wrote: »

i dont believe irish people are on average anymore bitter than other nationalitys , in fact , i believe we are a more caring and decent people than most nations

This is true but it is something that can be improved. A nation should be judged on the well being of its citizens not religion or political orientation. Areas such as health, education and local governance need to be greatly improved even though Ireland already achieves well in some. I think for many jobs makes up more minds in terms of bitterness than all other factors that compose well being.

Armin_Tamzarian

Sand wrote: »

@Armin_Tamzarian


How exactly have you noticed this? Some people would say Ireland is consumed with black depression and vindictive almost corrosive pessimism. Populist witch hunts against public hate figures and whipping boys. Or despair at the prospect of long term unemployment, economic failure and emigration.

The omnipresent arrogance that was present a few years back seems to have dissipated somewhat.
People are concerned with keeping their jobs and being able to provide for their families.
Rather than talking loudly about property and what car they'll get on a finance package next.
I view this current situation as a course correction of sorts that has brought people back to reality.

irishh_bob

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

The omnipresent arrogance that was present a few years back seems to have dissipated somewhat.
People are concerned with keeping their jobs and being able to provide for their families.
Rather than talking loudly about property and what car they'll get on a finance package next.
I view this current situation as a course correction of sorts that has brought people back to reality.

maybe things are different outside dublin but even during the boom , i dont believe irish people were anymore arrogant than most other nationalitys , less so in fact , we irish are a lot of things but arrogant is certaintly not one of them , in fact id go as far as to say , we are too humble for the most part , travel to many other countries , the uk , australia , new zealand , france , germany , much more arrogant than us

Cannibal Ox

I was going to leave before the crash. I've always seen it as a way to broaden my experience, do the kind of work I want to do and to broaden my horizons. I understand it's hard for some people in particular to leave, I find it difficult as well, but I agree with the thrust of the article in terms of the coffin ship mentality. Also, Colm Tobin is a great writer, but a bit of a grumpy ****er.

On the other hand, UNFPA published its State of the World's Population report this week. It pointed out that the world currently has a massive population of educated young people and that we're missing an opportunity to harness their creativity, imagination and vigor through joblessness and emigration. I think they're bang on and I think it's a huge, almost unprecedented opportunity, and one that the state and the taxpayer paid millions upon millions to help create, that has been lost.

And I miss the place, but not for it's excellent healthcare, education or infrastructure, but because I like Irish people.

endabob1

irishh_bob wrote: »

maybe things are different outside dublin but even during the boom , i dont believe irish people were anymore arrogant than most other nationalitys , less so in fact , we irish are a lot of things but arrogant is certaintly not one of them , in fact id go as far as to say , we are too humble for the most part , travel to many other countries , the uk , australia , new zealand , france , germany , much more arrogant than us

I'm out of Ireland the bones of 20 years and I noticed a huge difference in Ireland during the boom years, I found it all very distasteful.
As Armin_Tamzarian Says there has been something of a return to reality as people are too busy worrying about their jobs to tell me how their investment in Bulgaria is booming.

People make the place & when I was home last time I found myself liking things a whole lot more than I had at any point during the boom times.

djpbarry

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

The omnipresent arrogance that was present a few years back...

I wouldn’t say it was omnipresent. I certainly encountered a number of people who thought that Ireland, and more specifically Dublin (even more specifically, South Dublin), was the centre of the universe and all that was good in the world. But for every one of them, I encountered another who thought that everything about Ireland was ****e. I found both attitudes equally irritating.

Armin_Tamzarian

djpbarry wrote: »

I wouldn’t say it was omnipresent. I certainly encountered a number of people who thought that Ireland, and more specifically Dublin (even more specifically, South Dublin), was the centre of the universe and all that was good in the world. But for every one of them, I encountered another who thought that everything about Ireland was ****e. I found both attitudes equally irritating.

Omnipresent was probably a slight exaggeration.
Consider it cheerfully withdrawn...

jank

Some good things said here.

Not sure about the article though. Yes, I agree with the sentiment where we shouldn't go over board into our usual wailing on emigration. For some it is good to get out and see the world, get opportunities that wouldn't have presented themselves at home, learn from others and basically grow yourself. However emigration is bad for a country in terms of resources and human capital. Why are we spending thousands educating people only for them to leave and use their expertise elsewhere? It is devastating for communities, families who are left behind and the country as a whole. Yes, other countries have emigration too but there is a difference between those that want a change of life style to those who have to leave because there is no work. There will always be some sort of emigration. Lots of brits here in the UK, economy isnt so bad at home but alot of them leave to have a quality of life in the sun. Fair enough! Those that want to leave Ireland will anyway but in bad times those that dont want to leave will have to. This cannot be a good thing.

I have been out of Ireland now the last 3 years. One day I want to return and give it a go living and working there. However it will be a different Ireland where I will return to. Most of my friends are gone as well, I wonder sometimes if we are ever going to be in the same room all together again, having a drink, talking $hit, mocking each others mothers. That makes me sad.

If it doesn't work out I know that I can return to Aus or NZ at anytime and have a good life here. Home will always be home.

_Kaiser_

djpbarry wrote: »

So “who you know” only matters in Ireland? George W.’s election as president of the US had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his Dad held the same office? The fact that Boris Johnson and David Cameron were school buddies is just a remarkable coincidence?

So because "everyone else does it" that makes it ok or acceptable is it? Shouldn't we strive for better?

Again, you think that’s unique to Ireland? Seriously? Email a council in the London and this is the sort of automated response you receive:

“Thank you for contacting ******* Council by email. Your message has been received and we aim to respond within 10 working days.”

You’ll be lucky to hear from them within 2 weeks.

Um.. 10 working days = 2 weeks

Well that’s just a ridiculous generalisation.

But I dare say a fair one

Shelga

Hmm. Interesting thread.

I am a graduate who has moved to England in the last couple of months, and I love it here. Great job, great location, lovely people. I am working in a heavy engineering industry that simply doesn't exist at home. Already I am thinking there is a strong possibility that I will never return.

To my mind, at least in the West, people are the same wherever you go. Very similar cultures, societal norms and customs. So I don't tend to get misty-eyed about 'the Irish personality', whatever that may be. However, I do think it is a picturesque and largely pleasant country, and rather than feel angry about emigrating, I now see that it is better for me long-term. Lately I'm also thinking that life is too short to spend a significant portion of it feeling fury towards politicians, the public sector, trade unions, whatever it may be. Does it really matter if you are leading a happy and fulfilled life, and are reasonably financially sound? (Obviously this excludes a large portion of the populace at the momemt, and this line of thinking is probably not suited to a politics forum to begin with!)

I suppose I'm a bit of both. I am fully aware of the problems that abound in Modern Irelanf, and it is largely no different from other countries in many respects.

However, no matter how much logic tells me otherwise, I do feel a sense of affinity and, I suppose, minor 'patriotism' for the place. I know it's purely because I grew up there, but so what? Why do people support their home nation at sporting events or feel irrational pride when an Irish musician or author does well internationally? Because, and again this is not based in logic, it's 'nice'. And there's nothing wrong with that!

Permabear, may I ask why you don't simply move to the U.S.? I have read many of your posts deeming it a better country in many ways. Which is, of course, a thoroughly understandable and justified viewpoint. But I would like to see just one lighthearted post where you espouse the virtues of living in rural Donegal (I imagine it is very scenic and has a strong sense of community), where you do not also mention all the bad things! :-p

An intelligent and articulate fellow like yourself could consider it a challenge. :-) Positivity and all that!

irishh_bob

jank wrote: »

Some good things said here.

Not sure about the article though. Yes, I agree with the sentiment where we shouldn't go over board into our usual wailing on emigration. For some it is good to get out and see the world, get opportunities that wouldn't have presented themselves at home, learn from others and basically grow yourself. However emigration is bad for a country in terms of resources and human capital. Why are we spending thousands educating people only for them to leave and use their expertise elsewhere? It is devastating for communities, families who are left behind and the country as a whole. Yes, other countries have emigration too but there is a difference between those that want a change of life style to those who have to leave because there is no work. There will always be some sort of emigration. Lots of brits here in the UK, economy isnt so bad at home but alot of them leave to have a quality of life in the sun. Fair enough! Those that want to leave Ireland will anyway but in bad times those that dont want to leave will have to. This cannot be a good thing.

I have been out of Ireland now the last 3 years. One day I want to return and give it a go living and working there. However it will be a different Ireland where I will return to. Most of my friends are gone as well, I wonder sometimes if we are ever going to be in the same room all together again, having a drink, talking $hit, mocking each others mothers. That makes me sad.

If it doesn't work out I know that I can return to Aus or NZ at anytime and have a good life here. Home will always be home.

bar milking cows , can you make anything close to a decent living in NZ ?

A Primal Nut

People who criticise living in Ireland have probably never left it much apart from the US or Australia.

I work in Telecoms so I travel a lot - something like 17 countries in the last 12 months including Ireland; and I can say that Ireland is still one of the best countries to live in. If you are poor and vulnerable, social welfare benefits are some of the best in the world. If you are ambitious and hard working and wanting to achieve, then low corporation tax for those setting up a business; the array of multinationals and (nearly) free education (at least in comparison to other countries) mean there are a lot of opportunites here although to be fair you probably have to be like me and study something technical to be sure of that.

Cost of living relative to the salary is hard to judge as it depends on the job; for me I could probably have it better in parts of Central Europe or the States but if you are a cleaner you'd probably have it better here. The only significantly annoying thing regarding cost of living in comparison to other western countries for me is the huge tax on alcohol.

I would say the downside here is massive government debt which is biting us in the ass now but that seems to be the case everywhere that doesn't have oil. And the weather of course.

I do love the big cities in the US and I'd love to live there once in my life but the two main downsides I see is; the massive costs of education which makes it inaccessible for some regardless of how ambitious or hard-working they are; and the two weeks holidays. If I moved to America I'd have to come home for one week a year which leaves me with five days for the rest of the year.

I haven't been but Australia, New Zealand and Canada all seem great; and then of the countries I have been to that are good are Japan (although very expensive), UK, France, Germany and parts of Scandinavia (if you can stomach the high tax rates). Apart from those, I'd say Ireland still rules!! Easily among the top 6 or 7 countries in the world to live. And if you have a good qualification and some experience, the opportunites are as good if not better than some of those countries. Many of the best software engineers in Europe try to come to Ireland to work for Google, Facebook, etc.

Plus we have the best sense of humour!

I'm not saying there aren't families struggling in Ireland, but there are families struggling everywhere unfortunately.

The media do tend to make a big deal out of the Australia/NZ emigration thing. While I do know some who moved for a better job, the vast majority I know are going over for the craic and end up working crappy jobs they could easily get here.

A Primal Nut

RichardAnd wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I can understand you want to provide for your family and waiting until you are ready financially makes sense. That said, I still think your future sons and daughters can have amazing lives without being well off or being certain about the future. Sometimes that can drive them on to be even more successful.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are more countries than just Ireland and the United States. Have you been to Eastern Europe, Latin America, Africa, parts of Oceania, Middle East or most of the far East, or can you imagine growing up in one of those regions? Ireland is unquestionably a great country to live in, in comparison to most of the world, regardless of whether you are from Foxrock or rural Donegal.

we've made great strides since the 1980s, but we still have a long way to go to catch up with the rest of the Western world.

This is not true at all. We are just as advanced and dysfunctional in every way as US, France or anywhere else in the Western world. There are more crazy beliefs in other countries than here, thats for sure.

Kaiser2000's posts are a complete exaggeration and I doubt he has ever left Ireland if he thinks other countries are any better in those regards.

irishh_bob

A Primal Nut wrote: »

People who criticise living in Ireland have probably never left it much apart from the US or Australia.

I work in Telecoms so I travel a lot - something like 17 countries in the last 12 months including Ireland; and I can say that Ireland is still one of the best countries to live in. If you are poor and vulnerable, social welfare benefits are some of the best in the world. If you are ambitious and hard working and wanting to achieve, then low corporation tax for those setting up a business; the array of multinationals and (nearly) free education (at least in comparison to other countries) mean there are a lot of opportunites here although to be fair you probably have to be like me and study something technical to be sure of that.

Cost of living relative to the salary is hard to judge as it depends on the job; for me I could probably have it better in parts of Central Europe or the States but if you are a cleaner you'd probably have it better here. The only significantly annoying thing regarding cost of living in comparison to other western countries for me is the huge tax on alcohol.

I would say the downside here is massive government debt which is biting us in the ass now but that seems to be the case everywhere that doesn't have oil. And the weather of course.

I do love the big cities in the US and I'd love to live there once in my life but the two main downsides I see is; the massive costs of education which makes it inaccessible for some regardless of how ambitious or hard-working they are; and the two weeks holidays. If I moved to America I'd have to come home for one week a year which leaves me with five days for the rest of the year.

I haven't been but Australia, New Zealand and Canada all seem great; and then you have Japan (although very expensive), UK, France, Germany and parts of Scandinavia (if you can stomach the high tax rates). Apart from those, I'd say Ireland still rules!! And if you have a good qualification and some experience, the opportunites are as good if not better than some of those countries. Many of the best software engineers in Europe try to come to Ireland to work for Google, Facebook, etc.

Plus we have the best sense of humour!

I'm not saying there aren't families struggling in Ireland, but there are families struggling everywhere unfortunately.

The media do tend to make a big deal out of the Australia/NZ emigration thing. While I do know some who moved for a better job, the vast majority I know are going over for the craic and end up working crappy jobs they could easily get here.

australia is a great country but new zealand ( bar if your a farmer ) is a complete and utter backwater in almost every sense of the word , were it not so spectaculary beautifull , no one would ever give it a second look , wages are about half what they are in ireland , cost of living is much higher than here as a proportion of income and community spirit is an alien concept , you think the quality of construction is bad in ireland , try living in what passes for a home in kiwi land , its a country which is very well marketed , with all four million kiwis forever at the ready to tell you how great the place is but the realit is very different , fifty thousand kiwis leave for australia every year , were it not for its huge neighbour acting an an employment buffer , the place would look like ireland circa 1986 on a constant basis

jank

I have to agree with those who say the people who critize Ireland the most have never left the place to live in another country. Ireland has plenty wrong with it but it IS one of the best countries of the world to live in. There are literally billions of people in the world from South America, Africa and Asia that would give their right arm away to have a chance to live there.

Sure, there are countries that do other things better e.g. Australia has better weather but in terms of culture and history Ireland kicks its ass. Germany has better infrastructure and systems but if you want humor dont go there. Just because Ireland is not utopia doesnt mean its a slum.

mandrake04

alphanine wrote: »

I did exactly the same and I agree with you 100%. Just reading boards.ie posts makes you realise how bitter people are in Ireland. Ireland is full of bitter little drunks who hate to see anyone doing well, but I still love the country and the majority of the people are great. Emigration can be positive for life experiences, your CV and access to way better women!

I hate to say it but in many ways you are right, I once heard Gerry Ryan say that Ireland is full of begrudgers and I think he was spot on after reading some bitter posts from some members. I have been called everything from a deserting rat that lives in a dessert hell hole to me being unoriginal for going to a country that only speaks English

I too left back in '04 for a bit of an adventure, I got what I came for plus a blue passport so am happy enough to stay.

All in all my parents phone number in Ireland is saved as HOME because that where it always will be.

mandrake04

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The media do tend to make a big deal out of the Australia/NZ emigration thing. While I do know some who moved for a better job, the vast majority I know are going over for the craic and end up working crappy jobs they could easily get here.

The media in Ireland are a bunch of muppets making out that tens of thousands of irish people migrating to Australia each year, how many Irish people do you reckon migrated to Australia in the last year? How about 3700



The majority are on a Working holiday which funny enough is a holiday.

Maura74

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not particularly no - and I don't take any pleasure in saying that for what it's worth.

I've worked since I finished college and paid my way and did things the "honest and right" way (more fool me perhaps, but that's how I was raised - with a sense of responsibility). I was made redundant in late 2009 and found myself unemployed for a year when, despite my best efforts, it was almost impossible to even get (non-timewasting agency) interviews.

I knew nothing about the social welfare system and when I went for help and advice, the attitudes I encountered were that I was an inconvenience and liability - as if I was some sort of waster junkie scumbag who has never (nor wants to ever) worked a day in his life! I say that too as both a private and (former) public sector worker myself.

Anytime I've had cause to ring an Irish company or state agency for something, you get the same lazy, disinterested, incompetent (in many cases) attitude that makes it a genuine trial to get anywhere unless you're prepared to put hours in following up on it and brow-beating people into doing their jobs! The concepts of "customer service", "ownership" or "going the extra mile" are foreign and dirty to many of these people.

Irish people (generally) in my experience are great at whinging at each other in the pubs or online, but will do VERY little to try and change things - anyone who does, or who stands out from the herd at all, is decryed as some sort of "heritic". In fact, I truely believe that the only way Irish people WOULD stand up and be counted is if they brought in prohibition and banned cigarettes.

Irish politicians are merely an extension of this - although we all whinge about how they get away with these things, how many of us say this because we're just jealous we can't get away with it ourselves (or "have the balls" to - an attitude which speaks for itself.)

So no, while Ireland as a country/patch of land may have the natural beauty and rich history going for it - the (modern) Irish as a people are still too greedy, lazy, selfish and immature to be called a "modern first world nation" in my opinion.

We SHOULD and CAN do better and until THAT attitude becomes the prevailing one, and we demand better of our elected officials and each other generally, no, I stand by my assertion that we don't have much to be proud of at all.

I had to read your post a couple of times to see if you were referring to Ireland or UK.

Anytime I've had cause to ring an Irish company or state agency for something, you get the same lazy, disinterested, incompetent (in many cases) attitude that makes it a genuine trial to get anywhere unless you're prepared to put hours in following up on it and brow-beating people into doing their jobs! The concepts of "customer service", "ownership" or "going the extra mile" are foreign and dirty to many of these people.

Your paragraph above reflects the borough of Camden in London where I live, the people working there are just there waiting for their guarantee pensions and other benefits that goes with the job. As for serving the public that pays their wages forget it as they are not interested and if you keep complaining then you are flag up as a trouble maker. :mad:

Electric Sheep

endabob1 wrote: »

I'm out of Ireland the bones of 20 years and I noticed a huge difference in Ireland during the boom years, I found it all very distasteful.
As Armin_Tamzarian Says there has been something of a return to reality as people are too busy worrying about their jobs to tell me how their investment in Bulgaria is booming.

People make the place & when I was home last time I found myself liking things a whole lot more than I had at any point during the boom times.

Yes, at least now people can carry a conversation about something other than the price of property. People have finally copped on that having a gigantic mortgage on an apartment in the bog doesn't mean you are rich.

Squall19

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I knew nothing about the social welfare system and when I went for help and advice, the attitudes I encountered were that I was an inconvenience and liability - as if I was some sort of waster junkie scumbag who has never (nor wants to ever) worked a day in his life! I say that too as both a private and (former) public sector worker myself.

.

They are some shower of unhelpful bastards in that place alright.They would swear they are paying from there own pocket.The way they treat people in there is not on at all.

They should have a televised investigation with hidden cameras like they did for the puppy farms, nct thing and so on in that place.

They think they are above ous or something.

Amount of hassle I had to get a few weeks social welfare payments when I broke my hand 3 years back was a joke.