Latest EU deal

bbam

Hi all..
Not being deeply involved in anything similar, is there an idiots guide to the deal last night??
A summary of the main points agreed maybe??

I always have a sneaking suspicion that the current shower (being little different from the last) aren't always at the top table when decisions are made... I always get the feeling that the deals are done when our lads are in the jacks or out for a quick smoke :rolleyes:

FreudianSlippers

I'm very interested as well. Haven't had a chance to do much reading on it today (read: no chance) but from what I heard on the radio, we'll have repaid our bailout loan by the end of 2013 which is great news if true.
Also, it seems Greece is getting a good deal too, but it'll take them 10 years to pay back the bailout money.

Sounds as if the markets are reacting positively and this is being considered the saving deal of the Euro.

meditraitor

Here is the statement, if you have an hour to spare,

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/125644.pdf

They are calling it the "emergency three pronged deal"

From BBC, a brief synopsis

Greek debtPrivate banks holding Greek debt will accept a write-off of 50% of their returns.

The move is expected to cut the nation's debt load to 120% of its GDP in 2020. Under current conditions, it would have grown to 180%.

Reluctant banks had initially offered a 40% "haircut", but the deal was finally agreed after German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy joined direct negotiations on the issue on Thursday morning.

Bailout fundThe firepower of the main euro bailout fund - known as the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) - is to be boosted from the 440bn euros set up earlier this year to 1tn euros.

There is about 250bn euros left available in the EFSF, which the summit statement said could be leveraged 4-5 times.

This can be done in two ways:

By offering insurance to purchasers of eurozone members' debt - in principle making their bonds more attractive to investors and thereby lowering governments' borrowing costs.
And by setting up a special investment vehicle which big private and public investors, including countries such as China, could contribute to.
Both means could be used simultaneously depending on circumstances, the summit statement said.

The framework for the new, increased fund should be in place in November.

Bank recapitalisationEuropean banks will be required to raise about 106bn euros in new capital by June 2012.

It is hoped that this would help shield them against losses resulting from any government defaults and protect larger economies - like Italy and Spain - from the market turmoil.

"We have reached an agreement which I believe lets us give a credible and ambitious and overall response to the Greek crisis," was how Mr Sarkozy summed up the deal

Icepick

Some politicians prolonged their careers and bankers saved money at the expense of the tax payer.

So nothing new, really.

ei.sdraob

The Euro zone Member States would contribute to the PSI package up to 30 bn euro

So how much of that 30 billion would have to come from Ireland...

tenchi-fan

Ireland wants to get back to the markets by 2013.. so we can get into more debt and still not fix the nightmare that is our public sector

bbam

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Ireland wants to get back to the markets by 2013.. so we can get into more debt and still not fix the nightmare that is our public sector

Again with the public sector !!
There are many fascets of expenditure that need attention yet it's the same one rolled out first...

tenchi-fan

bbam wrote: »

Again with the public sector !!
There are many fascets of expenditure that need attention yet it's the same one rolled out first...

Social welfare's easy. It can be slashed.

Healthcare is a mess but once again expenditure can be slashed.

Roads can fall into disrepair and can be tolled to discourage motorists from driving.

Public sector workers have contracts, wages, pensions, and the ability to grind the country to a halt through strikes and work to rule. That's why I highlighted it.

ei.sdraob

plus they are protected from reality by Croke Park

BTE72

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Social welfare's easy. It can be slashed.

Healthcare is a mess but once again expenditure can be slashed.

Roads can fall into disrepair and can be tolled to discourage motorists from driving.

Public sector workers have contracts, wages, pensions, and the ability to grind the country to a halt through strikes and work to rule. That's why I highlighted it.

I am a Private Sector worker and while i agree the public sector is a huge financial dependency on us all i cannot deny the main crux of our problems here are the Huge amounts of money that we and our politicians have thrown at Dying Banks and NAMA in order to protect Investors, Builders and POLITICIANS. We are honoring private debt with Public Money. This cannot be forgotten. Yes public sector needs real reform but if you are to open your eyes to the rest of europe. We all have Public Sectors and they are all a worthwhile necessary financial burden.

Europe are pretending to care about this poxy little country and tell us how Good we are by playing by the rules but in reality it's the larger nations that will get real meaningful assistance. 50% haircuts for greece may get a woohoo on the stock markets but i doubt the recently unemployed and evictees in this country will be cheering today.

meglome

BTE72 wrote: »

I am a Private Sector worker and while i agree the public sector is a huge financial dependency on us all i cannot deny the main crux of our problems here are the Huge amounts of money that we and our politicians have thrown at Dying Banks and NAMA in order to protect Investors, Builders and POLITICIANS. We are honoring private debt with Public Money. This cannot be forgotten. Yes public sector needs real reform but if you are to open your eyes to the rest of europe. We all have Public Sectors and they are all a worthwhile necessary financial burden.

Europe are pretending to care about this poxy little country and tell us how Good we are by playing by the rules but in reality it's the larger nations that will get real meaningful assistance. 50% haircuts for greece may get a woohoo on the stock markets but i doubt the recently unemployed and evictees in this country will be cheering today.

I hate to break this to you but we're spending 20 billion a year more than we have. The banks are not our biggest problem as they will be worth something, the overspending is just gone.

gurramok

Where is the write off of debt for Ireland, Portugal etc? It does not seem fair that Greece gets a 50% writedown while everyone else gets zero.

FreudianSlippers

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the write off of debt for Ireland, Portugal etc? It does not seem fair that Greece gets a 50% writedown while everyone else gets zero.

We don't want it; the austerity would be ridiculous.

Yellow16

There is nothing new or unpredictable in Greece's default on its Government borrowing.

The moral of the story is:

Beware of Greeks bearing GILTS.

Taxi Drivers

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the write off of debt for Ireland, Portugal etc? It does not seem fair that Greece gets a 50% writedown while everyone else gets zero.

This might be useful.

A default for Ireland? It's not as simple as that, I'm afraid...

jc84

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the write off of debt for Ireland, Portugal etc? It does not seem fair that Greece gets a 50% writedown while everyone else gets zero.

have you seen the austerity that greece is faced with, if ireland got any kind of haircut on debt it would be seen as a default and ruin any chance of returning to the bond markets and the cuts that are needed to be made would be way more severe

PeadarCo

gurramok wrote: »

Where is the write off of debt for Ireland, Portugal etc? It does not seem fair that Greece gets a 50% writedown while everyone else gets zero.

Irelands total government debt as a % of GDP is considered to be more manageable. I wouldn't swap places with the Greeks though. We have a reasonable chance off coming out of our situtation at the moment with out a write down. Even with the write down it could still be a case of kicking the can down the road for Greece. As a country the still need to make structural changes to their economy and the deal with the social stresses that come from that. We don't. They also have to deal with all the reputational damage that comes from it. There are downsides to the writedown and upsides to not having to effectively default from Irelands point of view.

Fergus_Nash

jc84 wrote: »

have you seen the austerity that greece is faced with, if ireland got any kind of haircut on debt it would be seen as a default and ruin any chance of returning to the bond markets and the cuts that are needed to be made would be way more severe

And returning to the bond markets is a wonderful thing because...

What's the points in going back to somewhere to borrow more money when we can't pay back the money we borrowed over the last number of years and if some idiot decides to invest in Ireland when we're about to go down in the proverbial, we still have to guarantee his or her losses.

jmayo

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm very interested as well. Haven't had a chance to do much reading on it today (read: no chance) but from what I heard on the radio, we'll have repaid our bailout loan by the end of 2013 which is great news if true.
Also, it seems Greece is getting a good deal too, but it'll take them 10 years to pay back the bailout money.

Sounds as if the markets are reacting positively and this is being considered the saving deal of the Euro.

It is yet another fudge, although if it had been done last year it might have worked.
The deal reduces Greek debt by about 100 billion and the interest the country pays by as much as 5 billion euros a year.
But Greece is being made a dependent of the EU for 10 years and the deal only cuts their debt to around 120% of GDP by 2020.
That level of debt and the cuts they will have to enjure to cut to around 170% by next year are going to cause huge problems.
IMHO they need more debt written off and it is just posponing the inevitable.

Meanwhile we continue to be good little boys and sell oursevles to bail out the Euro.

BTE72 wrote: »

I am a Private Sector worker and while i agree the public sector is a huge financial dependency on us all i cannot deny the main crux of our problems here are the Huge amounts of money that we and our politicians have thrown at Dying Banks and NAMA in order to protect Investors, Builders and POLITICIANS. We are honoring private debt with Public Money. This cannot be forgotten. Yes public sector needs real reform but if you are to open your eyes to the rest of europe. We all have Public Sectors and they are all a worthwhile necessary financial burden.

Europe are pretending to care about this poxy little country and tell us how Good we are by playing by the rules but in reality it's the larger nations that will get real meaningful assistance. 50% haircuts for greece may get a woohoo on the stock markets but i doubt the recently unemployed and evictees in this country will be cheering today.

Here we go again with usual tripe.

We have a 20 billion annual deficit not due to the banks but due to
public expenditure >> revenue.

What the bank meltdown, recapitalisation and NAMA did was soak up our rainy day fund and cause a huge increase in our soverign debt (even though they tried to creatively have NAMA debts as somehow separate) which made it almost impossible to borrow anymore on the markets, hence leading to the bailout.

Even without ever having bank recapitalisation and NAMA costs we need to cut our public expenditure to match our revenue streams.

BTW a lot of people would argue with your statement that all "our public sectors are all a worthwhile necessary financial burden".

Raskolnikov

It seems like the non-event that is the presidential election is getting in the way of this important news. It's a national scandal that the Irish people are paying the unsecured bondholders of mega-rich Wall Street hedge funds in full, whereas the Greeks are getting a 50% haircut on debts incurred by the country because they decided they didn't want to pay any tax!

It's incredibly frustrating at just how little coverage is in the mainstream media about this. Declan Ganley, David McWilliams, and Constantin Gurdgiev are the only ones who are asking why is this happening?

Scofflaw

Raskolnikov wrote: »

It seems like the non-event that is the presidential election is getting in the way of this important news. It's a national scandal that the Irish people are paying the unsecured bondholders of mega-rich Wall Street hedge funds in full, whereas the Greeks are getting a 50% haircut on debts incurred by the country because they decided they didn't want to pay any tax!

It's incredibly frustrating at just how little coverage is in the mainstream media about this. Declan Ganley, David McWilliams, and Constantin Gurdgiev are the only ones who are asking why is this happening?

And the Greeks will be under troika management for at least a decade as a result, and until 2027 at the (current worst-case) outside. Is that what you want for Ireland?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Raskolnikov

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

but from what I heard on the radio, we'll have repaid our bailout loan by the end of 2013 which is great news if true.

That was a very disingenuous statement by Michael Noonan. What he meant was that Ireland would be returning to the bond markets by 2013 and we would be able to pay off the EU/IMF debt by issuing our own debt, like for like. The current situation with the debt, is that we are still drawing down on the EU/IMF facility (because we cannot borrow off the markets), so the overall debt is still increasing.

Scofflaw

Raskolnikov wrote: »

That was a very disingenuous statement by Michael Noonan. What he meant was that Ireland would be returning to the bond markets by 2013 and we would be able to pay off the EU/IMF debt by issuing our own debt, like for like. The current situation with the debt, is that we are still drawing down on the EU/IMF facility (because we cannot borrow off the markets), so the overall debt is still increasing.

The overall debt would be increasing anyway, though - and at rather higher interest rates. The troika aren't making us spend money - they're making us cut spending.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Anyone

Raskolnikov wrote: »

That was a very disingenuous statement by Michael Noonan. What he meant was that Ireland would be returning to the bond markets by 2013 and we would be able to pay off the EU/IMF debt by issuing our own debt, like for like. The current situation with the debt, is that we are still drawing down on the EU/IMF facility (because we cannot borrow off the markets), so the overall debt is still increasing.

Getting rid of the EU/IMF debt is a priority as it will allow Ireland to control its finances again. Right now the Government cant do a thing unless they get approval from EU/IMF.

Scofflaw

Anyone wrote: »

Getting rid of the EU/IMF debt is a priority as it will allow Ireland to control its finances again. Right now the Government cant do a thing unless they get approval from EU/IMF.

And the difference between the protesters (whether Greek or in Dame Street) and the rest of the public seems to be that the rest of the public is willing to get rid of the troika by hard work rather than shouting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Raskolnikov

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the Greeks will be under troika management for at least a decade as a result, and until 2027 at the (current worst-case) outside. Is that what you want for Ireland?

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, I am calling for fairness. The Greeks are being given a 50% discount on debt that was incurred by them living beyond their means. Ireland on the otherhand is paying off the full amount of unsecured debts of private institutions. I am not proposing anything as drastic as a Greek-type write off. We should most definitely pay 100% of the debt incurred by the statement, unsecured banking debt should be repudiated.

Anyone

Raskolnikov wrote: »

No, I am calling for fairness. The Greeks are being given a 50% discount on debt that was incurred by them living beyond their means. Ireland on the otherhand is paying off the full amount of unsecured debts of private institutions. I am not proposing anything as drastic as a Greek-type write off. We should most definitely pay 100% of the debt incurred by the statement, unsecured banking debt should be repudiated.

Who would lend to us if we default on our debts?

20Cent

Anyone wrote: »

Who would lend to us if we default on our debts?

We don't have to default on everything, just the stuff we don't owe like the 700m Anglo bonds on Nov 2nd. There is no obligation legal or otherwise to pay this it is plain bullying. The Gov need to push back a bit.

Who would invest in a casino that pays out the losers?

20Cent

Good article on Namawinelake about the Anglo bonds.

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/what-would-happen-if-anglo-didn%E2%80%99t-repay-the-1bn-bond-maturing-on-2nd-november-2011-part-2-of-2/

Raskolnikov

Scofflaw wrote: »

The overall debt would be increasing anyway, though - and at rather higher interest rates.

We will still be in deficit this year (2011).

We will still be in deficit next year (2012).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2013).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2014).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2015).

We are still spending way beyond our means. Each year the debt grows faster than the economy, the debt becomes even more unsustainable.

Scofflaw wrote: »

The troika aren't making us spend money - they're making us cut spending.

That's not really true. Spending is projected to stay broadly the same. The deficit is expected to be made up from increased taxation that is brought about by Ireland returning to 3% GDP growth starting next year.

All information comes from the IMF/EU Stability Report - http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2011/spuirelandapr2011.pdf

Raskolnikov

Anyone wrote: »

Who would lend to us if we default on our debts?

Our debts?

I can accept Charlie McCreevey and Bertie Ahern ratcheting up public sector spending during the boom times. We voted these guys in, we are responsible for their actions.

On the otherhand, no one voted for Seanie Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton when they drove their privately run institutions into the ditch. Not our problem.

Anyone

20Cent wrote: »

We don't have to default on everything, just the stuff we don't owe like the 700m Anglo bonds on Nov 2nd. There is no obligation legal or otherwise to pay this it is plain bullying. The Gov need to push back a bit.

Who would invest in a casino that pays out the losers?

And who would lend to a casino that doesnt pay the winners?

Anyone

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Our debts?

I can accept Charlie McCreevey and Bertie Ahern ratcheting up public sector spending during the boom times. We voted these guys in, we are responsible for their actions.

On the otherhand, no one voted for Seanie Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton when they drove their privately run institutions into the ditch. Not our problem.

It became our problem(Ireland) once the decision was made to nationalise them.

20Cent

Anyone wrote: »

And who would lend to a casino that doesnt pay the winners?

What winners?
Anglo was a private bank it was a crap bank and went bust. Investors should lose whatever they put in that's capitalism.

Scofflaw

20Cent wrote: »

What winners?
Anglo was a private bank it was a crap bank and went bust. Investors should lose whatever they put in that's capitalism.

Investors did lose, though. The bondholders are lenders, not investors.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Anyone

20Cent wrote: »

What winners?
Anglo was a private bank it was a crap bank and went bust. Investors should lose whatever they put in that's capitalism.

Was being the word. Once the Government at the time decided to nationalise those banks and guarantee the funds within them, they stopped being a private bank.

Scofflaw

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Our debts?

I can accept Charlie McCreevey and Bertie Ahern ratcheting up public sector spending during the boom times. We voted these guys in, we are responsible for their actions.

On the otherhand, no one voted for Seanie Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton when they drove their privately run institutions into the ditch. Not our problem.

No, but we voted for lax bank regulation and easy credit, and the politicians that bailed out the banks.

No, I am calling for fairness. The Greeks are being given a 50% discount on debt that was incurred by them living beyond their means. Ireland on the otherhand is paying off the full amount of unsecured debts of private institutions. I am not proposing anything as drastic as a Greek-type write off. We should most definitely pay 100% of the debt incurred by the statement, unsecured banking debt should be repudiated.

The two points aren't unconnected, though - Greece's debt reduction and the length of time they'll spend under troika management are directly related.

cordially,
Scofflaw

20Cent

Scofflaw wrote: »

Investors did lose, though. The bondholders are lenders, not investors.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Whatever they are called there is no obligation to pay them. They are not covered by the guarantee, nothing in the memorandum of understanding about it either.

20Cent

Anyone wrote: »

Was being the word. Once the Government at the time decided to nationalise those banks and guarantee the funds within them, they stopped being a private bank.

The 700m is not covered by the guarantee or the memorandum of understanding.

Scofflaw

Raskolnikov wrote: »

We will still be in deficit this year (2011).

We will still be in deficit next year (2012).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2013).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2014).

We will still be in deficit the year after that (2015).

We are still spending way beyond our means. Each year the debt grows faster than the economy, the debt becomes even more unsustainable.

I don't see how that's supposed to contradict the point I made, which was that we'd still be borrowing, and at higher rates.

Raskolnikov wrote: »

That's not really true. Spending is projected to stay broadly the same. The deficit is expected to be made up from increased taxation that is brought about by Ireland returning to 3% GDP growth starting next year.

All information comes from the IMF/EU Stability Report - http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2011/spuirelandapr2011.pdf

So we're not having an austerity budget this December?

cordially,
Scofflaw

baddebt

I still don't think this miss is over , greek debt will still be running at 120% GDP , thats simply not susitainable ( so probably back to square one in 18months-2years).

PLus the extension the bailout fund to 1trillion euros (money borrowed from the US , and china )
US are up to their tonsils in debt , and probably will go tits up , so thats going to have a knock on effect , plus they borrowed heavily from the chinese (em so much for detesting Communionism eh)

The can has just been kicked down the road,
truth be told , the EU/IMF/ finance minister's and leaders are simply out of there depth really

watch the italians riot like the greeks against berlusoni's pie in the sky autersity measures (we've already seen the punch up in the Italian Parliment over increasing the retirement age) ,
the total collapse is coming

Scofflaw

20Cent wrote: »

Whatever they are called there is no obligation to pay them. They are not covered by the guarantee, nothing in the memorandum of understanding about it either.

That doesn't mean there's no obligation to pay them, though. As far as I'm aware, multi-million euro loans aren't handed over with a "repay only if you feel like it" tag.

The State owns the bank that's legally responsible for the debt represented by the bonds.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishh_bob

Anyone wrote: »

And who would lend to a casino that doesnt pay the winners?

if a corner shop owner borrows money from a bank and goes bust , his neighbour the plumber should not have to pay back the bank , the bank simply takes what it can and writes off the losses , anglos debts are not the business of the irish state , while merkozy and thier banking masters in europe would go nuts , the IMF would still lend to us , iceland burned its bond holders yet the IMF were still willing to do business with rejkavik

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the Greeks will be under troika management for at least a decade as a result, and until 2027 at the (current worst-case) outside. Is that what you want for Ireland?

Do you seriously think that this latest plan will work ?
Care to bet how long before we are back again to yet another summit, yet another late night plan ?

Greece is facing a meltdown, the people are not going to put up with it.
Oh and if you studied recent Greek history you would notice they even decapitated each other during the civil war, so good luck to the troika.

Anyone wrote: »

And who would lend to a casino that doesnt pay the winners?

With ECB/Bankers capitalism everyone's a winner (bar the taxpayers at the bottom of the pyramid)

Anyone wrote: »

Was being the word. Once the Government at the time decided to nationalise those banks and guarantee the funds within them, they stopped being a private bank.

They should have rolled back once the true state of the banks was uncovered and IMHO holohan has a lot to answer on that score.

baddebt wrote: »

I still don't think this miss is over , greek debt will still be running at 120% GDP , thats simply not susitainable ( so probably back to square one in 18months-2years).

PLus the extension the bailout fund to 1trillion euros (money borrowed from the US , and china )
US are up to their tonsils in debt , and probably will go tits up , so thats going to have a knock on effect , plus they borrowed heavily from the chinese (em so much for detesting Communionism eh)

The can has just been kicked down the road,
truth be told , the EU/IMF/ finance minister's and leaders are simply out of there depth really

watch the italians riot like the greeks against berlusoni's pie in the sky autersity measures (we've already seen the punch up in the Italian Parliment over increasing the retirement age) ,
the total collapse is coming

Ahh but shure the ECB and EU leaders know what they are doing. :rolleyes:

Now be a good little European and do as you are told.

Voltex

baddebt wrote: »

PLus the extension the bailout fund to 1trillion euros (money borrowed from the US , and china )
US are up to their tonsils in debt , and probably will go tits up , so thats going to have a knock on effect , plus they borrowed heavily from the chinese (em so much for detesting Communionism eh)

The can has just been kicked down the road,
truth be told , the EU/IMF/ finance minister's and leaders are simply out of there depth really

watch the italians riot like the greeks against berlusoni's pie in the sky autersity measures (we've already seen the punch up in the Italian Parliment over increasing the retirement age) ,
the total collapse is coming

I think its important to understand how the markets differeniate between ountries like Japan, USA, UK who run high ND:GDP ratios and countries like Greece, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal who have been hammered due to their ratios.
Countries like the US and Japan are highly productive, wealth generating Nations with massive internal consumer markets. In japan there is also a strong domestic demand for Goverment paper, so they are insulated to a degree from market sentitment. The US is the only market that is deep anough and liquid enough to absorb all the Worlds excess Capital...thats why the Chinese have so much invested in the US. To say the US will go tits up is probably on par with saying the sky is falling down!!

I think what we have seen is the first stage on a real formulated path to sorting the Euro's problems. We have Ollie Rehn basically taking up the mantle of EU Finance Minister...we have a bail out fund levereged to €1T, we have banks with Greek exposure planned to be re-caped.

What else could have been expected?
Anyway the markets are the proof of the pudding...the Dow up 3.6% for the week and 12% for the month. This is good as there seems to be a consistent air of Risk On trade emerging!!

What i didnt hear today was how the Itailian bond auction went today..anyone got numbers?

Sand

@Jmayo

Do you seriously think that this latest plan will work ?

Yes, Scofflaw always believes the latest plan will work. The sun rises in the morning. Scofflaw believes the latest EU plan will work. Its a reassuring constant in this crazy, crazy world.

And you know what, one of these days by a process of elimination and a constant redefinition of "work" - he'll be right. Id get in on the ground floor of that action if I were you.

The reality is though that "something" had to be agreed and "something" was announced. As I said back in July in regards to the last "big bang" solution, some of it is promising - default plus recapitalisation where needed is the sensible strategy that should have been pursued years ago so the skeleton is there - its time to wait and see if the various EU members actually agree on the details of how that default and recapitlisation is achieved.

Afterall, everyone agrees on having world peace and ending global poverty - the devil is in the detail of how we do that...

@JC84

have you seen the austerity that greece is faced with, if ireland got any kind of haircut on debt it would be seen as a default and ruin any chance of returning to the bond markets and the cuts that are needed to be made would be way more severe

Yeah, they cant afford to pay bankrupt developers 200K for their "expertise". :eek: Imagine? Not being able to afford to pay L'Oreal insiders what they think their worth...that sort of austerity would be shameful in Ireland. God between us and being unable to afford to pay bankrupts 200K salaries at taxpayer expense.

@Scofflaw

Investors did lose, though. The bondholders are lenders, not investors.

Semantics - a game for all the family...

@Fergus Nash

And returning to the bond markets is a wonderful thing because...

What's the points in going back to somewhere to borrow more money when we can't pay back the money we borrowed over the last number of years and if some idiot decides to invest in Ireland when we're about to go down in the proverbial, we still have to guarantee his or her losses.

Agreed - if anything Ireland has absolutely no interest in returning to the markets. Why would we want to run a deficit again when our imperative is to return to surplus so we can repay the borrowing we have already taken on and comply with future EU budgetary restrictions which will limit government borrowing to a level much lower than even the ERSI consider sustainable...

Ireland has zero interest in returing to the markets, and our EU buddies are busy ensuring that periphery debt will be seen as poisonous by potential investors.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote:

Do you seriously think that this latest plan will work ?
Care to bet how long before we are back again to yet another summit, yet another late night plan ?

Eh, the usual timescale is a week. This is a big one, so maybe 2-3 weeks.

jmayo wrote:

Greece is facing a meltdown, the people are not going to put up with it.
Oh and if you studied recent Greek history you would notice they even decapitated each other during the civil war, so good luck to the troika.

Pointed it out elsewhere.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers

It seems some posters are suggesting that going back to the bond markets would be a bad idea and then turning around and saying we shouldn't be in with EU/IMF borrowing.

Sooooooo, where do we get money? Are you suggesting there ever was or will be a time where we (or other countries) don't go to the bond markets to secure capital?

jmayo

Can't post in all threads so post in this one.

Does anyone have the odds on the Greeks backing this plan in their proposed referendum ?

I have a feeling that this time the EU will be trying to convince a member state not to run a referendum rather than to rerun a referendum. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Can't post in all threads so post in this one.

Does anyone have the odds on the Greeks backing this plan in their proposed referendum ?

60% against at the moment, I think.

jmayo wrote: »

I have a feeling that this time the EU will be trying to convince a member state not to run a referendum rather than to rerun a referendum. :rolleyes:

That would be stupid of them, I think. I can appreciate that there are probably a lot of people freaking out about this right now, but I'd personally view this as one of the better and braver moves of the crisis.

cordially,
Scofflaw