Muslims say crosses at Catholic University Violate “Human Rights”

Keaton

From Todd Starnes of Fox News.

Muslims say crosses at Catholic University Violate “Human Rights”

The Washington, D.C. Office of Human Rights confirmed that it is investigating allegations that Catholic University violated the human rights of Muslim students by not allowing them to form a Muslim student group and by not providing them rooms without Christian symbols for their daily prayers. [Lemme get this straight. They enroll in a Catholic University... and it isn't a surprise that it is "Catholic" given that it is called "Catholic University of America". Then they complain that there are Catholic symbols everywhere!]
The investigation alleges that Muslim students “must perform their prayers surrounded by symbols of Catholicism – e.g., a wooden crucifix, paintings of Jesus, pictures of priests and theologians which many Muslim students find inappropriate.” [Perhaps they should enroll at Islamic University of America?]

A spokesperson for the Office of Human Rights told Fox News they had received a 60-page complaint against the private university. The investigation, they said, could take as long a six months. [Could they have had a little help writing the complaint?]

The complaint was filed by John Banzhaf, an attorney and professor at George Washington University Law School. [Ahhh,,,,] Banzhaf has been involved in previous litigation against the school involving the same-sex residence halls. He also alleged in his complaint involving Muslim students that women at the university were being discriminated against. You can read more on those allegations by clicking here.

[...]

Sooo…

I wonder whether Catholic students at King Saud University in Saudi Arabia have rooms with crucifixes for their Masses.

Does Banzhaf has a thing about Catholics and Catholic teaching? First he goes after CUA on behalf of homosexuals and now on behalf of Muslims. Raises questions, no?

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/attack-on-catholic-identity-at-catholic-university-of-america/

Jaafa

So some people a few hundred miles away made some complaints over something that they shouldn't have. Big deal.

Tom Dunne

Keaton wrote: »

From Todd Starnes of Fox News

It was at this point I stopped reading.

Keaton

Tom Dunne wrote: »

It was at this point I stopped reading.

And that's where you made your first mistake.

Hobbes

This isn't a news dumping ground. You post, you are expected to comment on it. Also please read the charter regarding fair use of copying another site.

Also here is a link to a more impartial article on the subject.

http://www.cuatower.com/news/2011/10/20/university-accused-of-discriminating-against-muslims/

Seems like they may have a case, as other universities do cater for Muslims (even catholic ones).

Keaton

Hobbes wrote: »

This isn't a news dumping ground. You post, you are expected to comment on it. Also please read the charter regarding fair use of copying another site.

Also here is a link to a more impartial article on the subject.

http://www.cuatower.com/news/2011/10/20/university-accused-of-discriminating-against-muslims/

Seems like they may have a case, as other universities do cater for Muslims (even catholic ones).

But I suppose the larger issue is, do Muslim universities in both America and, say Saudi Arabia, provide prayer room facilities for Catholic students, and if not, why not? Are Catholics allowed to worship in Saudi Arabia? I don't think so. Last thing I heard, you can't even pray the Rosary in public!!!

irishconvert

Keaton wrote: »

But I suppose the larger issue is, do Muslim universities in both America and, say Saudi Arabia, provide prayer room facilities for Catholic students, and if not, why not? Are Catholics allowed to worship in Saudi Arabia? I don't think so. Last thing I heard, you can't even pray the Rosary in public!!!

Why are you using Saudi Arabia as a shining example of Islam? It is probably one of the worst examples of how a Muslim country should be run. Catholics can practise their religion in most other Muslim countries in the world.

Hobbes

Keaton wrote: »

But I suppose the larger issue is, do Muslim universities in both America and, say Saudi Arabia, provide prayer room facilities for Catholic students, and if not, why not? Are Catholics allowed to worship in Saudi Arabia? I don't think so. Last thing I heard, you can't even pray the Rosary in public!!!

So if I understand you correctly, you do not believe people should be allowed to practise their religion and you are pointing to SA as your proof?

Or do you have anything to show your claims? Or are you just spouting cavutos?

Victor

Actually, it modestly concerned me that my local polling station is in the grounds of a church. The Irish Times website had pictures of people in polling booths under a large crucifix.

Why are religious universities in existance? Sure, to teach religion, but presumably Muslim students aren't studying Christian theology, but one of the many other courses.

http://admissions.cua.edu/undergrad/academic/programs.html

The Quadratic Equation

I wonder how Christians would get on in Islamic countries if they demanded all Islamic symbols were removed ?

Victor

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I wonder how Christians would get on in Islamic countries if they demanded all Islamic symbols were removed ?

Neither Ireland not the USA are Christian countries.

The pic from the Irish Times.

Tom Dunne

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I wonder how Christians would get on in Islamic countries if they demanded all Islamic symbols were removed ?

And what symbols would those be?

(Christian in a Muslim country here)

The Quadratic Equation

Victor wrote: »

The pic from the Irish Times.

If you don't like it, then don't use Catholic owned property for state business.

The Quadratic Equation

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And what symbols would those be?

(Christian in a Muslim country here)

e.g. Kuwait University Mosque etc.

Hobbes

That's reaching. I believe the issue is they don't have a room without religious symbols of a religion they don't follow. They aren't asking for all icons to be removed.

AFAIK Muslims don't have religious icons.

Tom Dunne

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

e.g. Kuwait University Mosque etc.

A crescent on a building is hardly a religious icon comparable to a crucifix in a room.

Hobbes wrote: »

AFAIK Muslims don't have religious icons.

I believe this is true. Perhaps some of our Muslim regulars could confirm.

The Quadratic Equation

Hobbes wrote: »

AFAIK Muslims don't have religious icons.

Other than human images. Islam has many icons

The Quadratic Equation

Tom Dunne wrote: »

A crescent on a building is hardly a religious icon comparable to a crucifix in a room.

You're right, its much more visable, it can be seen across the whole campus.

Jaafa

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Other than human images. Islam has many icons

That's Arabic script. :rolleyes:

The Quadratic Equation

Jaafa wrote: »

That's Arabic script. :rolleyes:

Any old arabic script ? An advert for Coke perhaps ?

Or used as religious icons and symbols ?

Jaafa

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Any old arabic script ? An advert for Coke perhaps ?

Or used as religious icons and symbols ?

By that logic, if I write Jesus in calligraphy and hang it up, it becomes a religious symbol.

The Recliner

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You're right, its much more visable, it can be seen across the whole campus.

As that symbol is on a Mosque and not say on a Lecture hall I fail to see the problem, are you saying a Mosque shouldn't be identified as or it just shouldn't be identified as one because it is on University property?

The Quadratic Equation

The Recliner wrote: »

As that symbol is on a Mosque and not say on a Lecture hall I fail to see the problem, are you saying a Mosque shouldn't be identified as or it just shouldn't be identified as one because it is on University property?

Why should a university have a mosque and promote islam ?

The Quadratic Equation

Jaafa wrote: »

By that logic, if I write Jesus in calligraphy and hang it up, it becomes a religious symbol.

If you are trying to promote and advertise Jesus and Christianity, then yes.

The Recliner

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Why should a university have a mosque and promote islam ?

Lots of Irish Universities have churches on site, why shouldn't an Islamic country have Mosques on site?

mcmoustache

Careful now lads. This is how the crusades started .

The Quadratic Equation

The Recliner wrote: »

Lots of Irish Universities have churches on site, why shouldn't an Islamic country have Mosques on site?

Read the OP

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Why should a university have a mosque and promote islam ?

You appear to be straying off the point. The OP relates to asking the school to cater for a prayer room that doesn't have religious symbols in it. They are not asking for a mosque to be built or an all out ban.

As pointed out on the more level headed link, other schools in the US (even Catholic ones) give a prayer room.

A prayer room is basically an empty room.

How this has gone onto that "Well Saudia Arabia does X, so we can do X" is beyond me. Do people here really want to equate themselves to the actions of Saudi Arabia, as the correct way to do things?

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Other than human images. Islam has many icons

Did you google "Islam icons" and just pick the first link? I am aware there are symbols in Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_Islam

I am referring to icons as in for example a crucifix. Where Christians are required to pray in front of it.

I don't think Muslims are required to pray in front of those icons you posted.

The Quadratic Equation

Hobbes wrote: »

Where Christians are required to pray in front of it.

Never heard of this in my life, what Christians are required to pray in front of it ?

blackthorn

In religious context an icon is a picture of a holy person, but the images posted earlier are words. From top right they say Allah (I think, it's a bit stylised), Muhammad, Bismillah (in the name of God, most gracious most merciful) and again Bismillah, and nobody prays to words on a wall. All that is needed for a Muslim prayer room is a clean space with no images of living things. Perhaps a compromise would be to remove the crucifixes etc from the walls while the students are praying and then put them back when the prayer is done. It could be a bit of a palaver if the room is being used up to 5 times a day though.

Jaafa

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Never heard of this in my life, what Christians are required to pray in front of it ?

Let me assure you that aside from the crescent moon/star (which is almost exclusively found only on mosques) and Arabic script which mentions a religious figure etc, there are virtually no religious symbols as you have with other religions.

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Never heard of this in my life, what Christians are required to pray in front of it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix#Usage

Prayer in front of a crucifix is often part of devotion for Christians, especially those worshipping in a church, and private devotion in a chapel. The person may sit, stand, or kneel in front of the crucifix, sometimes looking at it in contemplation, or merely in front of it with head bowed or eyes closed.

Keaton

This is from the Catholic League:

ATTACK ON CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY

October 28, 2011

Catholic University of America is being sued by George Washington University professor John Banzhaf because it does not accommodate Muslim religious practices.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments as follows:

John Banzhaf needs to be sued for bringing a frivolous lawsuit. He has no complainants—not a single Muslim at Catholic University has come to him complaining about seeing pictures of the pope or the display of crucifixes in campus buildings. Nor has a single Muslim registered a complaint with the administration of the university. This lawsuit, which follows a recent one filed by Banzhaf against Catholic University for moving towards single-sex dorms, stands not one iota of a chance of ultimately winning. Its purpose is to harass.

When Catholics enroll at Yeshiva University in New York City, they expect to see the Star of David and portraits of Moses. When Protestants enroll at the American Islamic College in Chicago, they expect to see the Crescent and Star and portraits of Muhammad. And when Muslims enroll at Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., they expect to see crucifixes and portraits of Jesus. Those who attend these private schools and object to such displays need to leave and apply to a community college or a state university.

The impression is being left in the media that Muslim students are behind this assault on the First Amendment. It thus behooves Muslim leaders to denounce this lawsuit immediately. The bigot is Banzhaf, not Muslims.
Contact our director of communications about Donohue’s remarks:
Jeff Field
Phone: 212-371-3191
E-mail: cl@catholicleague.org

Hobbes

What point are you trying to make Keaton?

The Quadratic Equation

Hobbes wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix#Usage

You do understand the difference between in the presence (sometimes) and required ?

Is it required a Muslim prays under a cresent ?

Do Muslims sometimes pray in the presence of cresent ?

Do you see the difference ?

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Do you see the difference ?

I am aware we are just arguing semantics of my comment at this point.

To put it a better way. If there was a crescent in the prayer room, its location in the room has no impact of how Muslims pray. A crucifix, you would normally pray facing it.

The Quadratic Equation

Hobbes wrote: »

A crucifix, you would normally pray facing it.

No requirement to do so whatsoever, very often it might be behind, or to one side, or there may be none at all. What happened on the cross is important to Christians, the cross is of no importance.

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

No requirement to do so whatsoever

See earlier link.

Although I don't see where this discussion is going. What point are you trying to make?

The Quadratic Equation

Hobbes wrote: »

See earlier link.

Although I don't see where this discussion is going. What point are you trying to make?

See the OP, it seems misconceptions about crucifixes are common.

Hobbes

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

What are these images

I was about to ask the same thing, as I can't see how this has anything to do with the case.

RichieC

Hobbes wrote: »

That's reaching. I believe the issue is they don't have a room without religious symbols of a religion they don't follow. They aren't asking for all icons to be removed.

AFAIK Muslims don't have religious icons.

They don't even have a plaque to note Muhammed's birthplace.. nothing at all there.