clamping outside blackbull shop no clamping signs.

LH2011

just noticed today, while passing the black bull shop, a car was clamped, however there were no clamping notification signs visible.


seems a little strange.

markc1184

It's the shop itself that do it, I've seen them carry the clamp out in the past. I think it's to try and stop people parking there and jumping on the bus. They had a small sign in the window about parking being for customers but I'm not sure how that would hold up against clamping.

Lord TSC

I would presume it depends on whether or not those three spaces are considered as part of the road or private property of the shop; if it's the latter, I guess they can say they dont want people parking there long term and using it as a parking space for the buses...

Biggins

If they are clamping someone that is parking on a public road or a public passageway, they could be charged with illegally detaining you. Was the transport on private property of any description?
No one business has express permission to claim right to public road or access without extraordinary permission and that would usually be only for a limited period of time.

If I was clamped I would call the Gardi and tell them they I'm being illegally detained - then later sue the bollox off the shop/business involved and the clampers.

They cannot claim "parking being for customers" again. Unless the council has awarded them some absolutely extraordinary landownership rights to a patch of public land!

LH2011

from what i see it seems part of the public road, as they dont own the footpath!! not sure if ownership extends past the footpath... however so no proper signage is in place, i passed that way again last night and the car that was clamped was still there, however this time it was unclamped, that was about 21.50 and shop closes at 10 i think.... so maybe it was declamped before closing time!

the car that was clamped was parked in the parking bay, and not blocking anyone at all..

perhaps an email / phone call in to drogheda borough council would clarify, ownership, or clamping rights... which i seriously doubt they have.

pmg58

Is there a chance that the car belongs to the shop owner or an employee? I'm aware of a filling station in another part of the country where this is done to encourage students of the nearby IT not to park there!

MugMugs

It's illegal to disable a vehicle under the road traffic act. Id personally cut it off and hand it back.

borderlinemeath

LH2011 wrote: »

from what i see it seems part of the public road, as they dont own the footpath!! not sure if ownership extends past the footpath... however so no proper signage is in place, i passed that way again last night and the car that was clamped was still there, however this time it was unclamped, that was about 21.50 and shop closes at 10 i think.... so maybe it was declamped before closing time!

the car that was clamped was parked in the parking bay, and not blocking anyone at all..

perhaps an email / phone call in to drogheda borough council would clarify, ownership, or clamping rights... which i seriously doubt they have.

I have seen signs there previously stating that parking was for customers only and that offenders will be clamped. Can't recall the exact wording but there was definately warnings there.

Also bear in mind that the area to pull in and park is half parking/half loading bay and that is marked on the ground. Was the car parked in the loading bay or in the customer parking area?

From the retailers point of view it would very detrimental for business having cars pulling in using it as an all day car park based on lack of official council signage. It would put off a lot of customers if they couldn't pull in "conveniently" at a convenience store - and in particular just there on that stretch of road where there are bollards on both sides of the road to prevent double parking disrupting the flow of traffic (and rightly so).

If they are clamping someone that is parking on a public road or a public passageway, they could be charged with illegally detaining you. Was the transport on private property of any description?
No one business has express permission to claim right to public road or access without extraordinary permission and that would usually be only for a limited period of time.

I don't like the thought that an opportunistic parker would abuse the lack of county council signage for the sake of saving a couple of euro in the train station or driving on for another 10 mins and parking in the (closed) Julianstown Inn car park - as I can only assume the many cars that park there daily are using it as a commuters car park.

If I was clamped I would call the Gardi and tell them they I'm being illegally detained - then later sue the bollox off the shop/business involved and the clampers.

This suprises me from you Biggins. While you may argue the legality of it - it doesn't make it right that a few should abuse it. I would like to think that you would try and help local businesses rather than go out of your way to "sue the bollox off the shop", while you had already disrupted their trade with selfish/opportunistic parking.:rolleyes:

Biggins

borderlinemeath wrote: »

...This suprises me from you Biggins. While you may argue the legality of it - it doesn't make it right that a few should abuse it. I would like to think that you would try and help local businesses rather than go out of your way to "sue the bollox off the shop", while you had already disrupted their trade with selfish/opportunistic parking.:rolleyes:

If businesses want to be treated fair - they have to play fair - and clamping, possible illegal clamping is not just taking the piss out of the public (who remember then have top supposedly cough-up to get the clamp removed under the impression they have broke a law!) and taking money out of their pockets which otherwise COULD have been spent on other businesses!

From the retailers point of view it would very detrimental for business having cars pulling in using it as an all day car park based on lack of official council signage.

It could be detrimental indeed - but that don't make it legal to carry out such actions. There are many businesses in the town facing the same problem - I had a few myself - and we never pulled a disgusting stunt like this, if they are doing this! Its outright possible fraud on a large scale!
O' and council signage is for council (public) property - not for private business! Private businesses and their private land, operate private clamping firms. If those firms extend their activities across to land their are not entitled to, they are seriously breaking the law.
Are we all supposed to just look the other way? NO!

LH2011

what if i parked there, and went into the black bull for a meal, would i get clamped?

Lord TSC

LH2011 wrote: »

what if i parked there, and went into the black bull for a meal, would i get clamped?

One would presume they would only use clamps on cars which had been there for hours and hours, and it wouldn't be at all hard to figure out if a car had been abandonded there by someone taking a bus as opposed to someone running in for a meal.

borderlinemeath

Biggins wrote: »

If businesses want to be treated fair - they have to play fair - and clamping, possible illegal clamping is not just taking the piss out of the public (who remember then have top supposedly cough-up to get the clamp removed under the impression they have broke a law!) and taking money out of their pockets which otherwise COULD have been spent on other businesses!


It could be detrimental indeed - but that don't make it legal to carry out such actions. There are many businesses in the town facing the same problem - I had a few myself - and we never pulled a disgusting stunt like this, if they are doing this! Its outright possible fraud on a large scale!
O' and council signage is for council (public) property - not for private business! Private businesses and their private land, operate private clamping firms. If those firms extend their activities across to land their are not entitled to, they are seriously breaking the law.
Are we all supposed to just look the other way? NO!

I don't know if they're charging to remove the clamp. It could possibly be that they clamp to deter the people who take it upon themselves to use the area as a car park (when it clearly isn't). It doesn't seem to be one of these rogue firms that patrol car parks/apartment blocks.

Also there are loading bay markings on the ground. Anybody who takes it upon themselves to park in a loading bay are running the risk of getting at least a ticket. It's designated for certain users ie goods vehicles to make it easy and safe for businesses to receive deliveries.

OP, I'll ask again, was the clamped car in the loading bay area or the customer pull in area?

I think the council is at fault here. There SHOULD be markings to state that it is either pay & display (like every other area in Drogheda)or customer parking. I doubt very much the shop/black bull took it upon themselves to dig up the footpath and install those spaces without council permission.

what if i parked there, and went into the black bull for a meal, would i get clamped?

Why would you want to? There is a large customer car park for patrons of the black bull. It's a very rare day that the car park is full. Even back in the boom when the pub and restaurant was packed you could get a parking space.

Don't forget that store abruptly closed down a few years back which was a huge inconvenience for the local community as the Dublin Rd Post Office trades within. I don't know what the situation was around it closing but it managed to reopen within a few weeks. I'm sure there would be a far bigger outcry if it closed again due to lack of trade compared to a few opportunistic parkers getting clamped.

Biggins

borderlinemeath wrote: »

...It could possibly be that they clamp to deter the people who take it upon themselves to use the area as a car park (when it clearly isn't).

Even if they are just doing that, its a clear form of illegal detention and/or attempting to hold onto items to which they are not entitled to hold or touch.
The law is very clear cut on that.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Also there are loading bay markings on the ground. Anybody who takes it upon themselves to park in a loading bay are running the risk of getting at least a ticket.

Yes, a possible ticket from the council - not a clamp from a private parking firm and/or intimidating behaviour from a business which has taken upon itself to claim that its has rights to bring in a clamping firm for an area of land that is possibly legally public/council land and as such, access.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There SHOULD be markings to state that it is either pay & display (like every other area in Drogheda)or customer parking. I doubt very much the shop/black bull took it upon themselves to dig up the footpath and install those spaces without council permission.

True, there should be and legally there HAS to be clear markings.
DID the shop/Black Bull dig up a public footpath? This would shock me to be honest and if so, without clear council permission, would probably shock them too!

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There is a large customer car park for patrons of the black bull. It's a very rare day that the car park is full. Even back in the boom when the pub and restaurant was packed you could get a parking space.

True also.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Don't forget that store abruptly closed down a few years back which was a huge inconvenience for the local community as the Dublin Rd Post Office trades within. I don't know what the situation was around it closing but it managed to reopen within a few weeks. I'm sure there would be a far bigger outcry if it closed again due to lack of trade compared to a few opportunistic parkers getting clamped.

True, it did close - but that was down to other reasons. I lived in Stameem (for ten+ years) just a couple of yards up from it at the time.
Clearly IF the shop/Black Bull is trying this clamping stunt, they would not be doing it if there was only "a few opportunistic parkers" - they must be regularly aggrieved so much that they have instigated this suspicious going on - that I feel needs to be investigated if illegal clamping is still ongoing.
They might have a point about people wanting to use the shop - but as you say, their car park 20/30 feet away is rarely - if ever - full.

By the way, there is other businesses around that area also - including a doctors surgery just across the road.
How many people attending there having parked their car in an only available public spot, have come out still sick and suddenly also have found their transport clamped? Lord knows but its a disgusting action by any business to do on anyone - especially if they are doing it illegally.

LH2011

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Also there are loading bay markings on the ground. Anybody who takes it upon themselves to park in a loading bay are running the risk of getting at least a ticket. It's designated for certain users ie goods vehicles to make it easy and safe for businesses to receive deliveries.

OP, I'll ask again, was the clamped car in the loading bay area or the customer pull in area?





Why would you want to? There is a large customer car park for patrons of the black bull. It's a very rare day that the car park is full. .

it appears the loading bay markings were not done by the council, , if the council marked it out, they would have loading bay signs erected on poles like down town.

the cars i seen clamped ( different ones over a few days) were not parked at the loading bay markings, they were parked at the other end of the parking bay.

and yes i have often gone into the black bull at lunch times to find the car park full! so yes a customer could possibly decide to park outside the blackbull, and go in for a meal.

borderlinemeath

Biggins wrote: »

Even if they are just doing that, its a clear form of illegal detention and/or attempting to hold onto items to which they are not entitled to hold or touch.
The law is very clear cut on that.

The law is also clear about parking in loading bays by private cars.

Yes, a possible ticket from the council - not a clamp from a private parking firm and/or intimidating behaviour from a business which has taken upon itself to claim that its has rights to bring in a clamping firm for an area of land that is possibly legally public/council land and as such, access.

It's not a private clamping firm, the shop are doing it themselves. I don't consider it to be intimidating behaviour in the slightest, it's their livelyhood. The key for retailers is to get customers in the door - they're not going to come in if they can't park!

True, it did close - but that was down to other reasons. I lived in Stameem (for ten+ years) just a couple of yards up from it at the time.
Clearly IF the shop/Black Bull is trying this clamping stunt, they would not be doing it if there was only "a few opportunistic parkers" - they must be regularly aggrieved so much that they have instigated this suspicious going on - that I feel needs to be investigated if illegal clamping is still ongoing.
They might have a point about people wanting to use the shop - but as you say, their car park 20/30 feet away is rarely - if ever - full.

From a customers point of view - parking in the black bull could be hassle, there's plenty of customers who purchase bulk items such as potatoes, fuel, large bags of dog food and unfortunately the store doesn't provide trolleys, in that instance if there's no space outside they would think "feck it, I'll drive on to Dunnes". I love popping into that shop, I regularly pick up bits and pieces and there's great value at the deli counter, but if there's no spaces outside I tend to drive on by.

By the way, there is other businesses around that area also - including a doctors surgery just across the road.
How many people attending there having parked their car in an only available public spot, have come out still sick and suddenly also have found their transport clamped? Lord knows but its a disgusting action by any business to do on anyone - especially if they are doing it illegally.

There are parking spaces provided in the new nearby doctors surgery, very easy access compared to having to find parking on say, Fair St to visit your doctor/dentist and have to pay for the privilege. All the businesses on the far side of the street (La Spa, the new doctors, the Drogheda Chamber) all provide onsite parking for clients.

borderlinemeath

LH2011 wrote: »

firstly the loading bay markings were not done by the council, so i doubt you can get a ticket, if the council marked it out, they would have loading bay signs erected on poles like down town.[/QUOTE]

Can you prove this? How do you know the council didn't do it? Did they tell you? Where's your source for this claim?
I drove by there earlier today and there are loading bay signs erected on poles.

the cars i seen clamped were not parked at the loading bay markings, they were parked at the other end of the parking bay.

Cars plural? You stated it was "a car" and then later on you saw the "same car" unclamped. Which is it?

and yes i have often gone into the black bull at lunch times to find the car park full! so yes a customer could possibly decide to park outside the blackbull, and go in for a meal.

Unless you are one of those people who drives an mpv/bus or a jeep and have trouble parking in a regular space I find that very very hard to believe. I drive by there everyday, sometimes 4 times a day and never, ever is it full. I've got parking there on busy saturdays/sunday lunchtimes when the pub is full so I'll call your bluff on this one.

Lord TSC

How many people attending there having parked their car in an only available public spot, have come out still sick and suddenly also have found their transport clamped?

To be blunt, I'd be amazed if they clamp any car that hasn't been parked there all day.

It's not (one would imagine) that they are clamping people who park there and run into the restraunt or over the road to the docs or spa for an hour. The problem people are those depositing their cars and then disappearing off on the buses for hours and hourse; people who aren't using the spaces to avail of local amenities but are using it to deposit their cars for the day and thus block people from using the spaces as they were intended.

EDIT:

Unless you are one of those people who drives an mpv/bus or a jeep and have trouble parking in a regular space I find that very very hard to believe. I drive by there everyday, sometimes 4 times a day and never, ever is it full. I've got parking there on busy saturdays/sunday lunchtimes when the pub is full so I'll call your bluff on this one.

In fairness, I too have gone and found it hard to get a space at times, but thats only if it's rush hour; between about 1:15 and 2:00 in the afternoon can be a nightmare to find a proper space. That said, when I go, I tend to just go a little earlier or later and you'll have no problem finding a space.

Biggins

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The law is also clear about parking in loading bays by private cars.

True - however I know of no clamping service yet employed by the Drogheda council in that area. I have asked someone on the council though to inquire for me, just as a matter of interest.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It's not a private clamping firm, the shop are doing it themselves.

If its the shop themselves - its TOTALLY and UTTERLY illegal.
Unless they have applied for a business licence to operate as a clamping service, they are utterly breaking the law - and not in a small way!

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I don't consider it to be intimidating behaviour in the slightest, it's their livelyhood.

That don't make it right and/or legal to do this!
...And you might not find it intimidating - others however would!

borderlinemeath wrote: »

...The key for retailers is to get customers in the door - they're not going to come in if they can't park!

Again true - but as you said yourself, the car park, just yards away is never - ever rarely - full.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

From a customers point of view - parking in the black bull could be hassle, there's plenty of customers who purchase bulk items such as potatoes, fuel, large bags of dog food and unfortunately the store doesn't provide trolleys, in that instance if there's no space outside they would think "feck it, I'll drive on to Dunnes". I love popping into that shop, I regularly pick up bits and pieces and there's great value at the deli counter, but if there's no spaces outside I tend to drive on by.

If people are badly stuck for items they will stop.
If they are not declined to walk an extra few, what really is a few yards to go from the car park, its their loss too - one that could be easily fixed if they were REALLY that stuck. I'm sure the shop has a trolly or a hand truck - even the assistance of a shop employee if need be!

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There are parking spaces provided in the new nearby doctors surgery, very easy access compared to having to find parking on say, Fair St to visit your doctor/dentist and have to pay for the privilege. All the businesses on the far side of the street (La Spa, the new doctors, the Drogheda Chamber) all provide onsite parking for clients.

I'm sure they do, as they in all honestly are facing the same traffic problems - have they taken to clamping outside their own doors, possibly illegally?
...And again, what happens if their 'considered' spaces are taken up and someone parks across the road instead - whats to stop the Black Bull/shop from going to penalise/intimidate them by sticking a clamp on a vehicle, trying to send a message!

Wolfe Tone

Pretty sure its either the shop owners or employees car.

gipi

Just wondering - when the pub and the shop were run by the same people, shop customers were directed towards the pub car park.

As the shop has changed hands, I wonder if this agreement still stands? Maybe that's the reason for the notices regarding use of the parking spaces outside the shop and the use of parking clamps?

kbell

Biggins wrote: »

what happens if their 'considered' spaces are taken up and someone parks across the road instead

There was bollards installed a good while ago to stop people doing this.

DYLF

business licence to operate as a clamping service

this was actually on they radio (todayfm) yesterday. currently you do not need a licence to operate a clamping service, there are no background checks on individuals etc etc. its completely unregulated.

Mylow

DYLF wrote: »

this was actually on they radio (todayfm) yesterday. currently you do not need a licence to operate a clamping service, there are no background checks on individuals etc etc. its completely unregulated.

Yes, but the area mentioned here is a public road not private property.

DYLF

not if there in the loading bay...
i've seen a few cars clamped there (theres a lovely ford mondeo clamped right at this minute) but they are always in or partly in the loading bay area

LH2011

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I drive by there everyday, sometimes 4 times a day and never, ever is it full. I've got parking there on busy saturdays/sunday lunchtimes when the pub is full so I'll call your bluff on this one.

passed by there today, carpark full, and a guy directing cars in the carpark as it was full, and yes regularly often full, so ill call your bluff on this one :rolleyes:


car in the parking bay today clamped, same car as the day before a mondeo
so looks like a staff members car.

borderlinemeath

LH2011 wrote: »

passed by there today, carpark full, and a guy directing cars in the carpark as it was full, and yes regularly often full, so ill call your bluff on this one :rolleyes:


car in the parking bay today clamped, same car as the day before a mondeo
so looks like a staff members car.

Guy in a yellow flash jacket? Yep, directing traffic, probably preventing people who weren't using the facilites to drive on and park elsewhere. Funny enough I was there for lunch today and got a space;).

Oh and I see you didn't bother replying to my post where I questioned your car/cars, and also the clarification that there is a post at the loading bay, which in your eyes makes it more official. I see you just edited your post to clarify that you may have seen "cars". Try and respond with facts rather than what you think might be the case.

it appears the loading bay markings were not done by the council, , if the council marked it out, they would have loading bay signs erected on poles like down town.

the cars i seen clamped ( different ones over a few days) were not parked at the loading bay markings, they were parked at the other end of the parking bay.

Lord TSC

LH2011 wrote: »

passed by there today, carpark full, and a guy directing cars in the carpark as it was full, and yes regularly often full, so ill call your bluff on this one :rolleyes:


car in the parking bay today clamped, same car as the day before a mondeo
so looks like a staff members car.

Why would they be clamping the staff members car :S

Wolfe Tone

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Why would they be clamping the staff members car :S

So people look and go "aw sh!t, better not park the car and leave it there or it will get clamped"

Lord TSC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So people look and go "aw sh!t, better not park the car and leave it there or it will get clamped"