An Taoiseach (in waiting) Martin & his cohorts breath a sigh of relief...

[Jackass]

So, the FF party line was VOTE YES!! But, they were verrrry quite about it. Rarely does a major party go so quite around the time of a referendum. Did anyone else notice this?

The 30th amendment to the constitution, to basically give the exact same powers of a tribunal, no more, no less, to the houses of Government has been shot down.

The irony of a 29th amendment being passed to remove a paranoia of the past, a Government unseating an entire judicial system that it did not believe acted in it's own desirable nature (the reason for judicial pay protected in the constitution) is passed, on the same day that an amendment is defeated because of the belief that the Gestapo will be in our bedrooms in the morning, arresting us on sight, possibly by an acting minister, and we will be searched and charged without evidence and locked up for an indefinite amount of time without trial does not escape me.

Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

I once heard a theroy that certain Rape victims enjoy their humiliation, and enjoy being dominated, controlled and analey humbled, and I didn't believe it, until I then realised that these are the FF voters, and no matter what, there are more who enjoy that treatment than not.

Just an interesting little insight into the Irish psyche.

bmaxi

IMO the results in both referenda were due to a lack of information and informed debate.
On Judges pay I think the wrong decision was made for much the same reason as you but people were grasping at an opportunity to, as they saw it, swat the fatcats. This was to be expected.
On the other hand, people are so mistrustful of politicians that the spectre of not having a final recourse to the courts was too much for many to swallow. So if you really want someone to blame for not getting the result you wanted, I suggest you talk to Mr.Shatter. I suspect his ill advised attack on eight former Attornies General was the tipping point for many.

Eliot Rosewater

[Jackass] wrote: »

Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

It has been remarked on the other thread that this vote doesn't stop a banking inquiry being set up at all. This notion that it does is only a result of the whinging of Eamon Gilmore who is attempting to "punish" the Irish electorate for defending their civil liberties. Incidentally, Gilmore has only vindicated the No vote: the stereotypical political way in which he responded to his frustration at the failed power grab has only reassured me that giving the likes of Gilmore such power is a very very bad idea.

johnnyskeleton

Bankers are not the most culpable. They were negligent, and in a few instances broke the law, but the real villans were the politicians, the regulators, thr civil service and the developers.

The propsed inquiries were designed toshift all the blame onto the bank workers with impunity so that the politicians get off scot free.

Sierra Oscar

Nearly certain that there could not be a banking inquiry until after the current Garda Síochána and DPP investigations have concluded. If such an inquiry is launched after the police force of the state has concluded its own inquiry, does it show that the Oireachtas does not have faith in An Garda Síochána, the DPP and the judicial system?

No to quango courts. I would rather see the current investigative and judicial institutions being empowered rather than politicians carrying out their own detailed inquires, where you can be sure political prejudices will affect procedures.

Deleted User

I'm not even going to bother writing a new post for this. Just going to copy another one I've already written that shows how wrong you are. Combined with Scofflaw's post your entire position is essentially shown to be incorrect.

Deleted User wrote: »

3 small points here:

1. We can have an inquiry. The Dail can appoint a Commission of Investigation tomorrow under the 2004 Act. Minister Shatter can propose it and Minister Noonan can approve it. It won't be on TV though, or headed up by a politician. Darn.

2. The voters have chosen, in effect, to protect their civil rights. I'd love to see the bankers get a proper roasting for what happened but I'd rather be sure the Government couldn't do it to whomsoever they liked thereafter. You can't put the bankers in such a wholly compromised legal position without putting us all in the same peril. The electorate have decided it's not worth it.

3. Opponents of this Amendment rightly assumed that if the thing had been worded correctly through, say, a proper consultation process then it would have been a welcome amendment. Instead we got an amendment that gave an extraordinary amount of power to the Government and that simply wasn't satisfactory. In a choice between a kangaroo court publicly shaming bankers and a society that maintains the basic principles of the separation of powers I know which one I would rather.

RandomName2

[Jackass] wrote: »

Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

I once heard a theroy that certain Rape victims enjoy their humiliation, and enjoy being dominated, controlled and analey humbled, and I didn't believe it, until I then realised that these are the FF voters, and no matter what, there are more who enjoy that treatment than not.

Just an interesting little insight into the Irish psyche.

FFS fraud is a felony in this state. Felonies can be investigated by the police. Police investigations can lead to court proceedings. Court proceedings can lead to convictions.

This is the way it has always been in democratic states.

Sure why don't you go out and lynch a banker on the assumption that he is guilty and that legal proceedings have no merit in this country. :pac:

If the banking industry is not investigated ostensibly due to the voting down of this amendment it will stem from the same political culture that did not believe in banking regulation in the first place.

Sierra Oscar

Also, lets not forget the circumstances which gave rise to this referendum in the first instance. Lets go back and examine the Ardagh v Maguire case, and outline the criticisms which were levelled against both Alan Shatter and Brendan Howlin by the judges deliberating over the case.

Mr Justice Adrian Hardiman:

This topic arose in two senses in the course of the hearing of this appeal. Firstly, it was contended by the applicants that the proposed inquiry was afflicted by what they termed "structural bias", that is to say bias arising from the mere fact that the members of the committee were all, by definition, public representatives. It was alleged that elected representatives could not bring the necessary impartiality to bear on the inquiry: they were afflicted by a presumptive bias arising from the fact that they were dependent on a renewal of their mandate. Alternatively, it was alleged, three members of the sub-committee - the chairman, Deputy Shatter, and Deputy McGennis had manifested objective bias by making various public utterances, during the course of the hearing, in the print or electronic media. Grave exception was taken to remarks made by Deputy Howlin in the course of the hearings.


[...]


Having regard to my conclusion on the first issue discussed in this judgment it is not necessary for me to rule on the allegations either of structural or of objective bias. But I would make certain general observations, so obvious that they might be considered trite. A person who sits in judgment on the actions of another must act in a quasi judicial fashion. He must clearly avoid bias; what is less well understood is that he must also avoid the appearance of bias. One obvious course of conduct which risks giving rise to an appearance of bias is to discuss either the issues being inquired into, or the procedures adopted for the inquiry, outside the context of the inquiry itself. It is therefore undesirable for persons sitting in aquasi judicial capacity to make themselves available for interview, discussion programmes, or comment of any sort on either substantive or procedural issues during the hearing. Members of the Oireachtas would, I imagine, be amazed to see a judge or a juror behaving in this fashion: for precisely the same reasons restraint in this area is required of persons who agree to act in a quasi judicial capacity.

Chief Justice Keane:

It has already been pointed out that the chairman and two members of the sub-committee, Deputies Marian McGennis and Alan Shatter appeared on television or radio to discuss the inquiry: the chairman, indeed took part in a television discussion on the day the sub-committee began its hearings.In addition, members of the sub-committee gave regular briefings to the media.
It is in the nature of politics that its practitioners will participate constantly in discussions in the print or electronic media on the issues of the day. However, even when one makes every allowance for that indisputable fact, one would also expect them to refrain from commenting on sensitive matters upon which they may subsequently, as members of an Oireachtas committee, find themselves reaching opinions and conclusions which may seriously affect the reputations of citizens who are not in any way engaged in the political process. It is unfortunate that, in the case of the present inquiry, some at least of the sub-committee failed to observe that obvious precaution. That, however, was not the ground on which, in the present case, the Divisional Court reached the conclusion that fair procedures had not been observed by the committee. That finding was essentially related to the procedure adopted by the committee in relation to the cross-examination of witnesses.

The behaviour of some of the members of the Oireachtas subcommittee investigating the Abbeylara incident, most notably Alan Shatter, was shameful. I suspect that this is a personal crusade of vindication that both Shatter and Howlin have undertaken given that they were both members of the disputed subcommittee.

However the facts remain the same as they were in 2002 - the behaviour of some of the members of the Oireachtas subcommittee investigating the Abbeylara incident was shameful. The structural bias present within the Oireachtas inquiry in 2002 would still be present today.

FreudianSlippers

RandomName2 wrote: »

FFS fraud is a felony in this state. Felonies can be investigated by the police. Police investigations can lead to court proceedings. Court proceedings can lead to convictions.

Just a point of clarity, we don't have felony offences in this state.
I suppose a good course of action may be under section 42 of Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 which following conviction on indictment carries a sentence of up to 5 years.

anymore

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Bankers are not the most culpable. They were negligent, and in a few instances broke the law, but the real villans were the politicians, the regulators, thr civil service and the developers.

The propsed inquiries were designed toshift all the blame onto the bank workers with impunity so that the politicians get off scot free.

It is sometimes forgotten in Ireland that the first obligation of banks and newspapers is towards thier shareholders. Thie purpose is to make maoney for thier shareholders. Any social functions they carry out are secondary.

walrusgumble

[Jackass] wrote: »

So, the FF party line was VOTE YES!! But, they were verrrry quite about it. Rarely does a major party go so quite around the time of a referendum. Did anyone else notice this?

The 30th amendment to the constitution, to basically give the exact same powers of a tribunal, no more, no less, to the houses of Government has been shot down.

The irony of a 29th amendment being passed to remove a paranoia of the past, a Government unseating an entire judicial system that it did not believe acted in it's own desirable nature (the reason for judicial pay protected in the constitution) is passed, on the same day that an amendment is defeated because of the belief that the Gestapo will be in our bedrooms in the morning, arresting us on sight, possibly by an acting minister, and we will be searched and charged without evidence and locked up for an indefinite amount of time without trial does not escape me.

Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

I once heard a theroy that certain Rape victims enjoy their humiliation, and enjoy being dominated, controlled and analey humbled, and I didn't believe it, until I then realised that these are the FF voters, and no matter what, there are more who enjoy that treatment than not.

Just an interesting little insight into the Irish psyche.

The government had no difficulty appointing judges to deal with child sex abuse cases. Kilkenny Incest Inquiry in 1992, was damning, yet little was done by government thereafter. Murphy inquiry was inexpensive and this route can be taken.

The government only need to delete the offending provision in the bill and it will likely get a resounding yes. Previous cases such as the Ivor Calley case show that they are incapable of the basics (hint hint, stop putting yourself in a position where media will ask question that could accidentally prejudice the case or stopping making comments on twitter). Now you want them to deal with more complex issues? Let there be proper grounds and procedures first.

Its no surprise that FG and Labour are very keen to to this, it won't hurt them but FF. No one is complaining mind, but how strenuous would they be if the shoe was on the other foot.

Now march down to Leinster House and call for proper legislation to address these problems in the future and call for prosecutions. The Gardaí have been busy on this. FG and Labour were the parties to first properly tackle gang land crime inlight of the Gurein murder, surely the law n order people can do good things here.

johnnyskeleton

anymore wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Bankers are not the most culpable. They were negligent, and in a few instances broke the law, but the real villans were the politicians, the regulators, thr civil service and the developers.

The propsed inquiries were designed toshift all the blame onto the bank workers with impunity so that the politicians get off scot free.

It is sometimes forgotten in Ireland that the first obligation of banks and newspapers is towards thier shareholders. Thie purpose is to make maoney for thier shareholders. Any social functions they carry out are secondary.

And the whole point of public limited companies is that if they are run badly they will collapse and their shareholders and other investors will take the hit. This would have happened here if it wasn't for thr schemies in dail eireann.

Duke Leonal Felmet

[Jackass] wrote: »

So, the FF party line was VOTE YES!! But, they were verrrry quite about it. Rarely does a major party go so quite around the time of a referendum. Did anyone else notice this?

The 30th amendment to the constitution, to basically give the exact same powers of a tribunal, no more, no less, to the houses of Government has been shot down.

The irony of a 29th amendment being passed to remove a paranoia of the past, a Government unseating an entire judicial system that it did not believe acted in it's own desirable nature (the reason for judicial pay protected in the constitution) is passed, on the same day that an amendment is defeated because of the belief that the Gestapo will be in our bedrooms in the morning, arresting us on sight, possibly by an acting minister, and we will be searched and charged without evidence and locked up for an indefinite amount of time without trial does not escape me.

Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

I once heard a theroy that certain Rape victims enjoy their humiliation, and enjoy being dominated, controlled and analey humbled, and I didn't believe it, until I then realised that these are the FF voters, and no matter what, there are more who enjoy that treatment than not.

Just an interesting little insight into the Irish psyche.

Charity 'thanks'.

Mr.Micro

[Jackass] wrote: »

So, the FF party line was VOTE YES!! But, they were verrrry quite about it. Rarely does a major party go so quite around the time of a referendum. Did anyone else notice this?


Your no vote has let the bankers off the hook, there will now be absolutely no consequence to the actions of the bankers on the back of your vote, and more ironically, the closet FF voters have now blocked any investigation into the corrupt practicies of the Government officals around the time, including Mr. Ahern amongst others, that can now never be brought into the public eye.

I would argue that the bankers got off in 2008 and since, and little will be gained now, other than some names being pursued. The cowardly politicians got away with their big pensions and did not even stand for re-election. The developers got away as well, many now even paid sums 100K to 210K, plus bonuses from Nama. I would dearly have loved to see all the rottenness exposed but I cannot see that ever happening. The proposed Amendment re investigations was too vague and there was something nasty about it. We need openness not underhand and big brother. We need to look to the future to put safeguards and practices in place so that the financial meltdown will not be allowed to happen again. With regard to FF the less said the better.