Greece will hold a referendum on bailout

take everything

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

War

All i could think of reading this.
2:05 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY

texidub

The Greeks haven't agreed the final terms of their bailout with the EU --the threat of a NO vote in the referendum will force France and Germany to give them better terms in those negotiations. From the Greek perspective, it's a brilliant move to have the referendum. remember the French and German banks are heavily exposed to Greek debt too. They NEED a YES vote and will now be more prepared to work with the Greeks in order to secure a YES vote. We had a similar position of power, but our political class flittered it away unfortunately...

Wertz

IMF have said that next month's 8 billion is now off the table until things are clarified. Big game of chicken now.

steve9859

Wertz wrote: »

IMF have said that next month's 8 billion is now off the table until things are clarified. Big game of chicken now.

Except Greece are more desperate, more nuts, and have less to lose. So I'm not sure there is any doubt that they have the upper hand in the game of chicken! France and Germany will splutter and moan, but ultimately they will have to give the Greek people a big carrot

melekalikimaka

greece are going to be in a very dark dark corner of europe for very long time, i hope they are left to rot, teach us over here a few home truths when the ensuing chaos begins

Benny_Cake

melekalikimaka wrote: »

greece are going to be in a very dark dark corner of europe for very long time, i hope they are left to rot, teach us over here a few home truths when the ensuing chaos begins

It amazes me how many people here seem to be enjoying the fact that the Grrek people are suffering (which they are,and will be,regardless of how the referendum goes).Given what we've been going through in this country and the challenges ahead a little less glee might be in order.

Seaneh

melekalikimaka wrote: »

greece are going to be in a very dark dark corner of europe for very long time, i hope they are left to rot, teach us over here a few home truths when the ensuing chaos begins

Makes sense you are spouting such utter nonsense, being mod of the Mythology forum and all.

Chucky the tree

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It amazes me how many people here seem to be enjoying the fact that the Grrek people are suffering (which they are,and will be,regardless of how the referendum goes).Given what we've been going through in this country and the challenges ahead a little less glee might be in order.

Not surprised plenty of people are happy to see a large amount of tax cheats suffering.

Degringola

Indeed, they can eat their Porsches!

Pete M.

Degringola wrote: »

Indeed, they can eat their Porsches!

Haha! You really have taken it hook, line and sinker eh?

The sooner the Greeks and the Irish and the rest of Europe start refusing to pay debts that aren't theirs in the first place, the better.

It is the democratic right and prerogative of the Greek people to hold a referendum on such an important issue.

And yes, we should have had a similar one already and should have one now.

amacachi

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It amazes me how many people here seem to be enjoying the fact that the Grrek people are suffering (which they are,and will be,regardless of how the referendum goes).Given what we've been going through in this country and the challenges ahead a little less glee might be in order.

If they reject the bailout they deserve all that's coming to them. Their debt is purely government and state debt. The bailout would allow them to gradually cut their spending, rejecting the bailout would mean an instant overnight reduction. They're protesting like spoilt children, nothing else.

Iwasfrozen

Laois_Man wrote: »

#

Oh I have!

I just haven't fallen into the trap of believing that the French and Germans are doing anything for anyone but themsleves and I don't believe Greece (or us) should forbidden from standing up to those who pretend they're doing anything more than giving us money to save THEIR OWN banks while getting us to pay it back with interest!

Thing is though there's a good chance France would survive the collapse of their banks. They're smart enough to know the difference between private bank debt and public state debt. Ireland and Greece would be royally fúcked if we weren't bailed out though we wouldn't have enough money to pay our public sector wages. That's the difference.

Chips Lovell

I thought it was all kinds of crazy when I first heard of the referendum. But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. The Greeks are going to have to consider what the alternative to the bailout is and that isn't going to be pretty. I won't be surprised at all if it passes.

The problem is the uncertainty in the meantime. January is a long way away and the biggest problem is whether Europe will hold it together until then.

LeixlipRed

The end is nigh, hopefully

Benny_Cake

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Not surprised plenty of people are happy to see a large amount of tax cheats suffering.

You do realise that they have PAYE in Greece too?So most workers don't have the option of not paying tax.Lots of tax dodging going on alright,by the self employed and the elite - and the elite won't be doing much suffering

Just a short note to all those of you who want the Greeks to suffer because of too much debt, remember that they were lent every penny that they owe to others, so that those people could profit from the interest that they would have received when the loans were repaid!

The real problem is the fact that our stupid governments are supporting the loan sharks rather than the victims.

Greece was stupid to borrow so much, but then again the lenders were lookjng for a fast buck by lending such a large amount.

Laois_Man

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thing is though there's a good chance France would survive the collapse of their banks. They're smart enough to know the difference between private bank debt and public state debt. Ireland and Greece would be royally fúcked if we weren't bailed out though we wouldn't have enough money to pay our public sector wages. That's the difference.

I've had this debate so many times. If Greece, Ireland, Portugal all default, then Spain and Italy come down too. Then the entire Euro project falls and France has to bring back their Franc just the same as we have to bring back our Punt.

Chucky the tree

Benny_Cake wrote: »

You do realise that they have PAYE in Greece too?So most workers don't have the option of not paying tax.Lots of tax dodging going on alright,by the self employed and the elite - and the elite won't be doing much suffering

Everyone is doing it. It shouldn't matter if they are rich or poor.

Pompey Magnus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Everyone is doing it. It shouldn't matter if they are rich or poor.

No not every Greek was dodging tax, that is just the same as the propoganda spouted about how supposedly all the Irish were idiots who spent borrowed money recklessly on ridiculously overpriced houses. Neither is true.

Chucky the tree

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

No not every Greek was dodging tax, that is just the same as the propoganda spouted about how supposedly all the Irish were idiots who spent borrowed money recklessly on ridiculously overpriced houses. Neither is true.

Fair point. But people from rich and poor backgrounds are doing it. Doesn't matter if they are self-employed, private sector or public sector.

Coriolanus

Wertz wrote: »

IMF have said that next month's 8 billion is now off the table until things are clarified. Big game of chicken now.

Yep. That referendum is going to be needed a little earlier than "sometime in January". I wonder what Greeces cash reserves are like?

SafeSurfer

amacachi wrote: »

If they reject the bailout they deserve all that's coming to them. Their debt is purely government and state debt. The bailout would allow them to gradually cut their spending, rejecting the bailout would mean an instant overnight reduction. They're protesting like spoilt children, nothing else.

If it weren't for the Greeks Ireland would not have received a cut in the punitive interest rates our European "partners" were charging us for propping up their banks. An interest rate which would have realised a profit of 9 billion euro on our rescue loans.

So maybe we should be thankful that Greeks have the balls to stand up to their politicians and to question the Euro elites.

Kidchameleon

Why did the Greek government decide to hold a referendum? They could have just marched on with the loan... I don't understand it, was it because of the protests?

Happyman42

Papandreou now saying Dec. 4th or 5th

The Snipe

You don't seem to realise, we are actually doing pretty well in meeting out payments, unlike greece which is 100% god damn ****ed!

hangon

Sarkozy and Merkel on the News channels now.
both 'losing it'
Sarkozy "what do you mean we are bullies"?
Merkel the wording of the referendum should be "Yes or No to the EU/Euro nothing less.
interesting times as the Chinese curse says.

Crazy Horse 6

Maybe the Mayans where right. Things are going to get very interesting.

Coriolanus

Jesus, what are Merkel and Sarkozy thinking. They do realise they're dealing with the Greeks right? The contrary fúcks will just vote no now for the giggles.

hangon

amacachi wrote: »

If they reject the bailout they deserve all that's coming to them. Their debt is purely government and state debt. The bailout would allow them to gradually cut their spending, rejecting the bailout would mean an instant overnight reduction. They're protesting like spoilt children, nothing else.

amacachi have You no empathy for the poorer sections of Greek Society.
You would put them on the street to keep the super rich in bubble baths?

lmaopml

XiledSniper wrote: »

You don't seem to realise, we are actually doing pretty well in meeting out payments, unlike greece which is 100% god damn ****ed!

We're doing ok, because we are the type that are survivors and are used to ups and downs, and are cutting back fiscally - we have a way to go though.

Greece, are holding a referendum because the government has no other choice but to do so - interesting times if they refuse a bailout, which they are entitled to do?...but interesting for both them and us, because it will effect everybody.

The European Politicians are lagging so far behind markets that have preempted their position beforehand, and they are really just giving advice on odds - that's a worry...it's wide open, not solid as it should be. It seems like the solution is a slow stitch patchwork solution - not timely, not decisive - just pussy footing. At least we can't be accused of that 'here'...lol..

We've done our bit here, they, the powers that be, need to get real, and stop worrying about their political asses first.

Pompey Magnus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Not surprised plenty of people are happy to see a large amount of tax cheats suffering.

Just for the record, Greece is thought to be losing €15bn through tax avoidance each year.

In 2004 Ireland, with well under half the Greek population, lost almost €8.5bn through tax avoidance.

hangon

Nevore wrote: »

Jesus, what are Merkel and Sarkozy thinking. They

Nevore since all this began Merkel and Sarkozy have being acting superior as if they own the EU,somebody should have told them they are members.
have they apologised for their banks?

Happyman42

Confirmed for Dec 4th. Let the debate begin!

hangon

Happyman42 wrote: »

Confirmed for Dec 4th. Let the debate begin!

So long as they don't use our Referendum commission try to sell it to Greece!:pac:

Happyman42

hangon wrote: »

So long as they don't use our Referendum commission try to sell it to Greece!:pac:

:D We'll threaten to get Greek citizenship for Dana.......that oughta sort it.;)

K-9

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Just for the record, Greece is thought to be losing €15bn through tax avoidance each year.

In 2004 Ireland, with well under half the Greek population, lost almost €8.5bn through tax avoidance.

You have a link for that?

I'd expect tax evasion is the problem with Greece, tax avoidance in Ireland. The first is illegal, the second isn't, though some would say morally suspect.

lmaopml

hangon wrote: »

So long as they don't use our Referendum commission try to sell it to Greece!:pac:

In fairness the referendum commission did a good job online - the result, proves at least that aspect of the proposed amendment. It's just a pity that people didn't get the post on time, or that everybody didn't receive the message via the media in all it's diversity..

Pompey Magnus

K-9 wrote: »

You have a link for that?

You're right actually, it is avoidance vs evasion.

Tax avoidance schemes cost Irish exchequer €8bn

Greece loses €15bn a year to tax evasion

hangon

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D We'll threaten to get Greek citizenship for Dana.......that oughta sort it.;)

yeah 'All kinds of everything 'could happen now!:eek:

lmaopml wrote: »

In fairness the referendum commission did a good job online - the result, proves at least that aspect of the proposed amendment. It's just a pity that people didn't get the post on time, or that everybody didn't receive the message via the media in all it's diversity..

Lol i think Zarkozy and Merkel told them they did not like that particular Referendum so they went along!:)

SafeSurfer

So the French and German leaders dictate to the sovereign Greek government what options the Greek people will be allowed to vote on in the referendum?

Why should they singularly decide on the EU response, let alone insist on what wording the Greeks will use in their referendum. This must be intolerable, not only to Greeks but to any EU member state whose people still believes in the sovereignty of their own countries.

lmaopml

hangon wrote: »

yeah 'All kinds of everything 'could happen now!:eek:



Lol i think Zarkozy and Merkel told them they did not like that particular Referendum so they went along!:)

I don't dislike Zarkozy or Merkel, or indeed the 'EU' and the whole idea of one currency etc. I will not apologise however, that it 'seems' as though the politicians are waiting until they are 'elected' etc before making any major decisions - and 'MAJOR' decisions need to be made a little faster..

It's the politics that scares me, not the 'idea' - Irish people have signed up for the 'idea' and will tow the line, pay bills etc. - but an actual decision on how to stabilise the currency from within would be really nice too...

AlmightyCushion

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

You're right actually, it is avoidance vs evasion.

Tax avoidance schemes cost Irish exchequer €8bn

Greece loses €15bn a year to tax evasion

The first link is 7 years old. Thing could be very different now whether better or worse. Also, there is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Avoidance is legal whereas evasion isn't.

K-9

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The first link is 7 years old. Thing could be very different now whether better or worse. Also, there is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Avoidance is legal whereas evasion isn't.

Tax evasion and the black market would have been pretty rife here in the 80's. The black market is making a comeback, hard to know about evasion.

Some of the avoidance schemes were closed though with the economy tanking, hard to know if they would be anywhere near the figures quoted a few years ago.

Pompey Magnus

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The first link is 7 years old. Thing could be very different now whether better or worse. Also, there is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Avoidance is legal whereas evasion isn't.

The vast majority of people avoiding tax in 2004 would still be alive and working today I assume.

And yes there is a difference between avoidance and evasion, but my point is that its all well and good us getting on our high horse and beating the Greeks for not paying taxes when Irish people are just as liable to find ways out of paying it when they can get away with it, it just so happened that over the last few years it has been easier and more profitable for Irish people to employ legal methods to avoid paying tax rather than the direct tax evasion methods which were prevalent in earlier years.

The issue is simply with the differences in the Irish and Greek tax systems, if anyone thinks a Greek system in Ireland would be any less abused by Irish people is just deluding themselves.

All I am saying is that we should focus our blame the inadequacies of the Greek system, to blame the Greek people is just a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Chips Lovell

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So the French and German leaders dictate to the sovereign Greek government what options the Greek people will be allowed to vote on in the referendum?

Why should they singularly decide on the EU response, let alone insist on what wording the Greeks will use in their referendum. This must be intolerable, not only to Greeks but to any EU member state whose people still believes in the sovereignty of their own countries.

Because it's mainly them bankrolling Greece at the moment. And also because rejection of the bailout essentially does mean leaving the eurozone. So the Greeks should be clear on what they're voting for.

Arianna_26

Deleted User wrote: »

Should we have one next!

I think we should have had one in the first place.

Pete M.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The first link is 7 years old. Thing could be very different now whether better or worse. Also, there is a big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Avoidance is legal whereas evasion isn't.

And who makes the laws?

Call it what you will, it's essentially the rich taking from the rest of us.

Chips Lovell

Pete M. wrote: »

And who makes the laws?

Call it what you will, it's essentially the rich taking from the rest of us.

Actually, they changed the law on tax avoidance schemes a few years ago.

You're now obliged to report them to the Revenue and if you don't, you'll be prosecuted. The loopholes are still technical legal when they're found, but it means they get closed quicker.

Chucky the tree

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

The vast majority of people avoiding tax in 2004 would still be alive and working today I assume.

And yes there is a difference between avoidance and evasion, but my point is that its all well and good us getting on our high horse and beating the Greeks for not paying taxes when Irish people are just as liable to find ways out of paying it when they can get away with it, it just so happened that over the last few years it has been easier and more profitable for Irish people to employ legal methods to avoid paying tax rather than the direct tax evasion methods which were prevalent in earlier years.

The issue is simply with the differences in the Irish and Greek tax systems, if anyone thinks a Greek system in Ireland would be any less abused by Irish people is just deluding themselves.

All I am saying is that we should focus our blame the inadequacies of the Greek system, to blame the Greek people is just a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

From everything I have read it seems to be a cultural thing and not just based on their tax system. Also avoidance and evasion are hugely different. God only knows how much money Greece is losing out on if you were to include tax avoidance considering how much illegal gouging Greek people are involved in.

Lone Stone

so eh if you happen to have a decent amount in the bank would now be a good time to take it all out ? or change it to another currency