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Greeks having a referendum on bailout

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 murphaph
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    A bad day for democracy IMO.

    This was a huge question that I personally feel the Greek people should make. It is not really a highly technical question that might be difficult to understand. The outcomes, either way, are not definable. Nobody can say what will happen either way but the effects are going to be felt for decades in Greece. The people should choose their path directly on this one.

    Who will replace Papandreuo? The party that claims to be against the austerity but for the bailout lol.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 Mr.Micro
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    meglome wrote: »
    Imagine the 'elite' expecting the Greeks to pay back the money they borrowed and very unwisely spent.

    The Greeks do not appear to want to take responsibility for much. Now that they owe all that money, a nice little referendum will get them out of paying what they owe, or accepting more. What an attitude to have, just take take ( like many here looking for debts forgiveness with no conditions ), and I cannot comprehend how they expect an economy to operate when everybody thinks they should not have to pay taxes or debts? How did Greece ever get into the Eurozone? I have heard of laid back, but this takes the biscuit......cut Greece loose and have done with it, and any other country that wants to leave so that we can get past this uncertainty once and for all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 mike65
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    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    How did Greece ever get into the Eurozone? I have heard of laid back, but this takes the biscuit......cut Greece loose and have done with it, and any other country that wants to leave so that we can get past this uncertainty once and for all.

    They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

    The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 Scofflaw
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    mike65 wrote: »
    They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

    The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.

    The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 murphaph
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    Scofflaw wrote: »
    The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    The thing was botched from the beginning in their rush to push ahead with "the European project".

    In theory a single currency is certainly possible but it should have started off small with very similarly minded countries (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, perhaps the nordic ones might have been more comfortable too) and developed at a slow pace (or not).

    The Euro has great advantages as a recent trip to Copenhagen reminded me. It needs greater oversight on a European level however and this may be its undoing. People are now very distrustful of EU career politicians whose bread and butter is "the Project".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 Mr.Micro
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    mike65 wrote: »
    They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

    The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.

    I remember all that jargon about entry criteria and all bs it looks like now. One thing I guess, is that this will effectively halt any further Euro expansion? Any of the countries left that wish to join will not be big economies so would be a drain on the EU, so that is that I guess, unless a a series of divisions are created with the Germans in division one, and lesser economies in 2, 3, 4 and so on. Promotion and relegation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 Pompey Magnus
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    Scofflaw wrote: »
    The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 mike65
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    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I remember all that jargon about entry criteria and all bs it looks like now. One thing I guess, is that this will effectively halt any further Euro expansion? Any of the countries left that wish to join will not be big economies so would be a drain on the EU, so that is that I guess, unless a a series of divisions are created with the Germans in division one, and lesser economies in 2, 3, 4 and so on. Promotion and relegation.

    Well Sweden, Denmark, UK, Czech Republic, Latvia and Lithuania wouldn't be a drain, most of the basket cases are already inside - the PIIGS
    So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?

    As I said above the euro development was driven by politics not economics, so they weren't minded to look at the books (I suspect) and as Scofflaw says nor could they demand a look.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 irishh_bob
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    murphaph wrote: »
    The thing was botched from the beginning in their rush to push ahead with "the European project".

    In theory a single currency is certainly possible but it should have started off small with very similarly minded countries (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, perhaps the nordic ones might have been more comfortable too) and developed at a slow pace (or not).

    The Euro has great advantages as a recent trip to Copenhagen reminded me. It needs greater oversight on a European level however and this may be its undoing. People are now very distrustful of EU career politicians whose bread and butter is "the Project".


    you sure you were in copenhagen , denmark isnt in the euro


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 murphaph
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    irishh_bob wrote: »
    you sure you were in copenhagen , denmark isnt in the euro
    Exactly.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 Scofflaw
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    So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?

    Because the EU is not its own master. The Member States are its master, and the Member States wanted to push ahead with the euro but didn't want anyone else to look at their books. So they agreed not to look at each others' books, and take each others' figures on trust.

    And as they sowed, so they are reaping.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 beeftotheheels
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    The Commission has just said what many of us have been saying for months

    You cannot exit the euro without exiting the EU.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 Scofflaw
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    The Commission has just said what many of us have been saying for months

    You cannot exit the euro without exiting the EU.

    Of course, they're not anything like that blunt:
    "The treaties indeed confirm what we have been saying here: the treaty doesn't foresee an exit from the euro zone without exiting the EU, so indeed that is the current situation," European Commission spokeswoman Karolina Kottova said.

    There's enough hedge in there to make a decent maze...

    amused,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,485 Thrill
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    Greek PM saying he is not resigning according to Greek state tv.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 carveone
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    Why would anyone listen to "opinion" on TV when you can read this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,336 Mr.Micro
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    Thrill wrote: »
    Greek PM saying he is not resigning according to Greek state tv.

    Its like a Greek tragedy. He knows, he cannot fix the economy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,075 Rasmus
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    Faisal Islam tweets that '' see President just leaving palace to go home. Papandreou is NOT seeing him tonight. He is NOT resigning just yet. Addresses Pasok in 1 hr''


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 bauderline
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    Greece has descended into a complete farce, with any election likely some two months away surely the EU must act now as they could not contemplate handing over 8bn in the interim thus triggering a default for sure....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,485 Thrill
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    On Sky now...The referendum is off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 westies4ever
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    Just watching sky news and it appears that the greek referendum has been scrapped?!?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,685 AllGunsBlazing
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    And cue the mass rioting....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 Duke Leonal Felmet
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    Lord, just boot them out before they wreck the gaff any more.




  • So the mess continues. What guarantees does Europe have that 2 or 3 years down the line a new Greek Government doesn't come in and default?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 caseyann
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    This is better than corrie :D
    Woe and behold the hammer coming down,EU freedom what a laugh.:p




  • caseyann wrote: »
    This is better than corrie :D
    Woe and behold the hammer coming down,EU freedom what a laugh.:p

    Yeah they're having a great laugh in Greece alright!

    Stick to watching Corrie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 496 Teclo
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    Vee have vays of making you say Ja

    ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 Scofflaw
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    15.23 AFP reports George Papandreou's office has released a statement, including a quote which was apparently made in a cabinet meeting today:

    "The referendum was never an end in itself. We had a dilemma - either true assent or a referendum. I said yesterday, if the assent were there, we would not need a referendum."

    I think he's saying there that if the mere threat of referendum did the job of uniting the Greek Parliament, then that's all that's required.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw




  • Scofflaw wrote: »
    I think he's saying there that if the mere threat of referendum did the job of uniting the Greek Parliament, then that's all that's required.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I think that's what they call a 'backtrack'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 Arfan
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    I think he's saying there that he had to backpedal pretty quick.

    Unless you want to entertain conspiracies that this was to make Greece pass austerity measures.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 bauderline
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    Scrambling for a way out of this... How many lives does this cat have left ?

    "(Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou on Thursday offered to hold talks with the opposition to resolve the country's political crisis and softened his stance on a referendum on the country's vital bailout package.

    In a speech to his cabinet on Thursday, Papandreou said he would assign the task of discussions with the opposition to two senior party members and praised their support of the bailout deal. If the opposition agreed to back the deal in parliament, no referendum would have to be held, he said.

    "I will be glad even if we don't go to a referendum, which was never a purpose in itself. I'm glad that all this discussion has at least brought a lot of people back to their senses," he said in the text of his speech released to media.

    "I will talk to (opposition leader Antonis) Samaras so that we examine the next steps on the basis of a wider consensus."

    He reiterated that Greece's euro zone membership was not in question and that heading to elections immediately would entail a big risk of the country going bankrupt."


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