Greeks having a referendum on bailout

murphaph

A bad day for democracy IMO.

This was a huge question that I personally feel the Greek people should make. It is not really a highly technical question that might be difficult to understand. The outcomes, either way, are not definable. Nobody can say what will happen either way but the effects are going to be felt for decades in Greece. The people should choose their path directly on this one.

Who will replace Papandreuo? The party that claims to be against the austerity but for the bailout lol.

Mr.Micro

meglome wrote: »

Imagine the 'elite' expecting the Greeks to pay back the money they borrowed and very unwisely spent.

The Greeks do not appear to want to take responsibility for much. Now that they owe all that money, a nice little referendum will get them out of paying what they owe, or accepting more. What an attitude to have, just take take ( like many here looking for debts forgiveness with no conditions ), and I cannot comprehend how they expect an economy to operate when everybody thinks they should not have to pay taxes or debts? How did Greece ever get into the Eurozone? I have heard of laid back, but this takes the biscuit......cut Greece loose and have done with it, and any other country that wants to leave so that we can get past this uncertainty once and for all.

mike65

Mr.Micro wrote: »

How did Greece ever get into the Eurozone? I have heard of laid back, but this takes the biscuit......cut Greece loose and have done with it, and any other country that wants to leave so that we can get past this uncertainty once and for all.

They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.

Scofflaw

mike65 wrote: »

They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.

The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

cordially,
Scofflaw

murphaph

Scofflaw wrote: »

The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The thing was botched from the beginning in their rush to push ahead with "the European project".

In theory a single currency is certainly possible but it should have started off small with very similarly minded countries (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, perhaps the nordic ones might have been more comfortable too) and developed at a slow pace (or not).

The Euro has great advantages as a recent trip to Copenhagen reminded me. It needs greater oversight on a European level however and this may be its undoing. People are now very distrustful of EU career politicians whose bread and butter is "the Project".

Mr.Micro

mike65 wrote: »

They spent years cooking the books so they could join and the fools in the ECB/EU were desperate to have another member of the supposed inner circle club.

The thing to remember about the euro is that its a political project rather than a fiscal/economic one so membership has been framed with that in mind.

I remember all that jargon about entry criteria and all bs it looks like now. One thing I guess, is that this will effectively halt any further Euro expansion? Any of the countries left that wish to join will not be big economies so would be a drain on the EU, so that is that I guess, unless a a series of divisions are created with the Germans in division one, and lesser economies in 2, 3, 4 and so on. Promotion and relegation.

Pompey Magnus

Scofflaw wrote: »

The other things to remember are that the euro was supposed to be the common currency for the whole eurozone, so everyone was supposed to join it, and that the oversight on the financial position of the Member States for entry was only on the figures given by the countries. So Greece, like all the rest, was in a position to cook the books, because the EU had no powers of inquiry, having not been granted them by the Member States.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?

mike65

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I remember all that jargon about entry criteria and all bs it looks like now. One thing I guess, is that this will effectively halt any further Euro expansion? Any of the countries left that wish to join will not be big economies so would be a drain on the EU, so that is that I guess, unless a a series of divisions are created with the Germans in division one, and lesser economies in 2, 3, 4 and so on. Promotion and relegation.

Well Sweden, Denmark, UK, Czech Republic, Latvia and Lithuania wouldn't be a drain, most of the basket cases are already inside - the PIIGS

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?

As I said above the euro development was driven by politics not economics, so they weren't minded to look at the books (I suspect) and as Scofflaw says nor could they demand a look.

irishh_bob

murphaph wrote: »

The thing was botched from the beginning in their rush to push ahead with "the European project".

In theory a single currency is certainly possible but it should have started off small with very similarly minded countries (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, perhaps the nordic ones might have been more comfortable too) and developed at a slow pace (or not).

The Euro has great advantages as a recent trip to Copenhagen reminded me. It needs greater oversight on a European level however and this may be its undoing. People are now very distrustful of EU career politicians whose bread and butter is "the Project".

you sure you were in copenhagen , denmark isnt in the euro

murphaph

irishh_bob wrote: »

you sure you were in copenhagen , denmark isnt in the euro

Exactly.

Scofflaw

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

So why proceed with such a massive project as a single European currency if the EU was well aware that it did not have the powers to ensure the currency's future stability would not be threatened by a member state "cooking the books" in order to reap the benefits of entry?

Because the EU is not its own master. The Member States are its master, and the Member States wanted to push ahead with the euro but didn't want anyone else to look at their books. So they agreed not to look at each others' books, and take each others' figures on trust.

And as they sowed, so they are reaping.

cordially,
Scofflaw

beeftotheheels

The Commission has just said what many of us have been saying for months

You cannot exit the euro without exiting the EU.

Scofflaw

beeftotheheels wrote: »

The Commission has just said what many of us have been saying for months

You cannot exit the euro without exiting the EU.

Of course, they're not anything like that blunt:

"The treaties indeed confirm what we have been saying here: the treaty doesn't foresee an exit from the euro zone without exiting the EU, so indeed that is the current situation," European Commission spokeswoman Karolina Kottova said.

There's enough hedge in there to make a decent maze...

amused,
Scofflaw

Thrill

Greek PM saying he is not resigning according to Greek state tv.

carveone

Why would anyone listen to "opinion" on TV when you can read this thread.

Mr.Micro

Thrill wrote: »

Greek PM saying he is not resigning according to Greek state tv.

Its like a Greek tragedy. He knows, he cannot fix the economy.

Rasmus

Faisal Islam tweets that '' see President just leaving palace to go home. Papandreou is NOT seeing him tonight. He is NOT resigning just yet. Addresses Pasok in 1 hr''

bauderline

Greece has descended into a complete farce, with any election likely some two months away surely the EU must act now as they could not contemplate handing over 8bn in the interim thus triggering a default for sure....

Thrill

On Sky now...The referendum is off.

westies4ever

Just watching sky news and it appears that the greek referendum has been scrapped?!?

AllGunsBlazing

And cue the mass rioting....

Duke Leonal Felmet

Lord, just boot them out before they wreck the gaff any more.

So the mess continues. What guarantees does Europe have that 2 or 3 years down the line a new Greek Government doesn't come in and default?

caseyann

This is better than corrie
Woe and behold the hammer coming down,EU freedom what a laugh.:p

caseyann

caseyann wrote: »

This is better than corrie
Woe and behold the hammer coming down,EU freedom what a laugh.:p

Yeah they're having a great laugh in Greece alright!

Stick to watching Corrie.

Teclo

Vee have vays of making you say Ja

Scofflaw

15.23 AFP reports George Papandreou's office has released a statement, including a quote which was apparently made in a cabinet meeting today:

"The referendum was never an end in itself. We had a dilemma - either true assent or a referendum. I said yesterday, if the assent were there, we would not need a referendum."

I think he's saying there that if the mere threat of referendum did the job of uniting the Greek Parliament, then that's all that's required.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think he's saying there that if the mere threat of referendum did the job of uniting the Greek Parliament, then that's all that's required.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think that's what they call a 'backtrack'.

Arfan

I think he's saying there that he had to backpedal pretty quick.

Unless you want to entertain conspiracies that this was to make Greece pass austerity measures.

bauderline

Scrambling for a way out of this... How many lives does this cat have left ?

"(Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou on Thursday offered to hold talks with the opposition to resolve the country's political crisis and softened his stance on a referendum on the country's vital bailout package.

In a speech to his cabinet on Thursday, Papandreou said he would assign the task of discussions with the opposition to two senior party members and praised their support of the bailout deal. If the opposition agreed to back the deal in parliament, no referendum would have to be held, he said.

"I will be glad even if we don't go to a referendum, which was never a purpose in itself. I'm glad that all this discussion has at least brought a lot of people back to their senses," he said in the text of his speech released to media.

"I will talk to (opposition leader Antonis) Samaras so that we examine the next steps on the basis of a wider consensus."

He reiterated that Greece's euro zone membership was not in question and that heading to elections immediately would entail a big risk of the country going bankrupt."