The Commute

southsiderosie

Whispered wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if it was that black and white. What about the people lost their jobs and have no choice but to commute to work because they couldn't find work closer to home?

That may be an issue now but it wasn't in 2007, and people were still whinging about it back then.

Whispered

Unemployment wasn't an isssue in 2007? You want people to "quit whinging" 4 years ago? What?

JupiterKid

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think more people in Ireland need to be realistic about work and family life. People are obsessed with raising their kids in the country, but want the kind of well-paying professional jobs that by and large are going to be in a city. But there are only so many hours in the day, and you can't have it all. Yet suggest you raise your kids in Dublin or - GOD FORBID - in a flat instead of a house, and people look at you like you have three heads.

If you want a well-paying professional position and you want to spend time with your family, then be prepared to have a smaller house (for probably more money) but a shorter commute. But it's annoying that people complain about 2-hour commutes because they think they are entitled to both city wages and a country lifestyle. Just pick one and quit whinging.

I completely agree with your points Southsiderosie. Very long distance commutes destroy quality of life, are bad for the environment, put massive strain on relationships and put people into an early grave.

Ireland as a society has to grow up. The big opportunities are in the big cities. This is a fact of life that people in almost every other country accept - but apparently not Ireland where there is an illogical anti-urban hatred. It's a sign of a selfish and immature society in my opinion.

People making irrationally long commutes talk about having no choice. Often they do have a choice - it's called making trade offs and realising that you can't have your cake and eat it.

I think one factor preventing people from moving closer to thier place of work is the nasty aftermath of the collapse of the property bubble whereby people have a massive albatross of negative equity houses in far flung locations where there are few to no jobs and are forced into long distance commuting to feed the jumbo mortgage. It's tragic.

Whispered

JupiterKid wrote: »

I think one factor preventing people from moving closer to thier place of work is the nasty aftermath of the collapse of the property bubble whereby people have a massive albatross of negative equity houses in far flung locations where there are few to no jobs and are forced into long distance commuting to feed the jumbo mortgage. It's tragic.

That's it exactly, some people are travelling from silly areas to get to work in Dublin. I remember when we were looking to buy, we both had work in the citywest area, we had an estate agent suggest we buy in SLIGO. Fecking sligo. It's easy to see how some people got caught.

Not everyone ended up getting caught like that though. In our case we bought a house within a 30 min drive from our jobs, certainly not a far flung location. Within 3 years we both lost them due to closures and have to travel further. There is no choice, no trade off, we travel or we don't work.

And you're 100% right, it has a massive effect on every part of peoples lives. It's a situation so many have been forced into and it is, as you say, tragic.

filthymcnasty

This daft programme had something of an identity crisis: the people featured living abroad are essentially emigrants, not commuters.
Anyone foolish enough to fly back to Ireland each week to play for a hurling team needs their head examined.
The midwife from Cork- well its just too bad theres no maternity hospital in her back yard to work in. People have migrated towards work since time immemorial, sadly its not the other way round.

Man up: our forefathers have been emigrating for generations and were lucky to get back from the UK once a year- those in the US and further afield were lucky to come back at all. Thats not to say our diaspora should only come back once a year, but a bit of perspective is needed here.

cloneslad

I'd imagine the lad playing hurling was getting free flights back home each week thanks to the county board. Even was I was playing club football, at u21's with a poor team in a 4 team division, a taxi was arranged to bring me back home for a game one weekend when I wasn't going to be around due to graduation.

If a club pays, a county most definitely pays, especially for their captain.


Matt in Sligo was not a commuter, he worked in London and came home once a month or so. That's just taking advantage of working in a nearby country. Though he really should have just flown in and out of Knock, it's only about 45mins to Ballymote.

The midwife was gaining invaluable experience. As said by her husband, it'll work out better for her if she gets a 6 day on, 6 day off schedule as it'll be cheaper due to less flights and she'll be home longer. The chance of her getting a job right next to home will be slim I would imagine, especially considering she's going to be much older than other newly qualifieds / those with the same level of experience, and age discrimination is still alive and kicking.


The guy getting the train from Limerick to Dublin everyday was just crazy. He barely gets to see his wife and kid when he gets home anyway. He should just man up and stay in Dublin.


The H&S officer from Donegal was delusional to think she was going to get a full time, well paid job close to her home. She lives in the back of beyond. I lost interest in her when she said she graduated in 2006 and whe she was graduating she expected to be married and have 3-4 kids already at this stage...it's only 5 years on and she wanted to have 4 kids and a career built? was she thinking she could pop a set of quads out?

southsiderosie

Whispered wrote: »

Unemployment wasn't an isssue in 2007? You want people to "quit whinging" 4 years ago? What?

Unemployment in 2007, just as the bottom was beginning to fall out of the economy, was 4.6%, which, in economic terms, is essentially zero.

What amazes me is that in the run-up to the crash, there was very little focus on infill development in Dublin, and instead a great deal of focus on building semi-detached and/or larger homes out in the middle of nowhere. This wasn't solely the fault of developers; there is a aversion among large swathes of the Irish population to living in flats with families. Yet somehow, people all over the rest of Europe manage to do this without scarring their children for life. At a minimum, if there was going to be sprawl, there should have been simultaneous development of (rapid) public transport infrastructure. All folks got was the Luas, which is great if you don't have to connect lines or cross the Liffey coming from the southeast part of Dublin. :rolleyes:

Unless you can telecommute, most highly skilled people are going to have to live in or near an urban area to get to work. Yet most Irish families with young children resist urbanization. If people want to preserve their sanity, however, and be able to spend time with their family during the week, this mindset is going to have to change, given that Ireland is (was...sigh) a modern service economy, rather than an agrarian backwater. Unfortunately, this process is going to be further slowed by the fact that thousands of people are now underwater on their homes in the boonies, so not only do they have a long slog, they will continue to have one for the foreseeable future, as they are stuck with their underwater house. Plus given the unemployment rate today, people will take what they can get.

whirlpool

Ugh. Will someone for the love of god please have jess16, her attitude problem and blatant chip on her shoulder removed from the room? She's making a perfectly decent and mature conversation a tad unbearable.

whirlpool

Storminateacup wrote:

We have a 5 month old child and to be honest, it's horrible having to commute so far knowing if something happens godforbid, we are both so far away.

I'm sorry but that's a really silly name for a child.

castie

whirlpool wrote: »

Ugh. Will someone for the love of god please have jess16, her attitude problem and blatant chip on her shoulder removed from the room? She's making a perfectly decent and mature conversation a tad unbearable.

I'm sorry but that's a really silly name for a child.

Hello Mr. Pot

whirlpool

castie wrote: »

whirlpool wrote: »

Ugh. Will someone for the love of god please have jess16, her attitude problem and blatant chip on her shoulder removed from the room? She's making a perfectly decent and mature conversation a tad unbearable.

I'm sorry but that's a really silly name for a child.

Hello Mr. Pot

I can only assume you're joking.

Storminateacup

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think more people in Ireland need to be realistic about work and family life. People are obsessed with raising their kids in the country, but want the kind of well-paying professional jobs that by and large are going to be in a city. But there are only so many hours in the day, and you can't have it all. Yet suggest you raise your kids in Dublin or - GOD FORBID - in a flat instead of a house, and people look at you like you have three heads.

If you want a well-paying professional position and you want to spend time with your family, then be prepared to have a smaller house (for probably more money) but a shorter commute. But it's annoying that people complain about 2-hour commutes because they think they are entitled to both city wages and a country lifestyle. Just pick one and quit whinging.

Because god forbid people aim for the best of both worlds. Why should people have to settle? Choose between raising their children in the country and a well paid professional job?

I grew up in the country. I want the same - the best - for my child. And if that means I go back to work when she's almost 2 months old, and commute for four hours a day to give it to her, then that's what I'll do. Renting property is dead money. I would rather put that 1k a month towards our house.

Ideally, things would be different, but hey. They're not. It won't be like this forever.

Abi

whirlpool wrote: »

Ugh. Will someone for the love of god please have jess16, her attitude problem and blatant chip on her shoulder removed from the room? She's making a perfectly decent and mature conversation a tad unbearable.

She objects to people telling non-Dubs to move to Dublin = attitude problem & chip on shoulder? Climb down off your little box there and stop making a show of yourself.


I watched this last night, and I felt sorry for the commuters. Just watching the routine they have, the commute must feel like they're living in purgatory.

The Cork woman with her career in London, and the guy who basically came home for 24 hours, and in that it had to include some sleep. I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't choose this life for themselves if it was avoidable.


Before I say what I'm going to next, I want to make clear that I'm from Dublin, and living in Dublin - but the attitude some Dubs have, well it's pure Dub snobbery at it's best. How the hell would you like to be told to pack up your stuff and go live somewhere you've no family or friends? I might add, this is being said to people that have families and houses they probably couldn't sell even if they wanted to.

Then you've the 'sell your big house and quit your winging' crew. I'm fairly certain that they may not have bought a house where they did if they had any idea what was ahead of them.


So we've Dub ignorance / snobbery and general begrudgery, this should make for a fun thread.

Diddler1977

Abi wrote: »

She objects to people telling non-Dubs to move to Dublin = attitude problem & chip on shoulder? Climb down off your little box there and stop making a show of yourself.


I watched this last night, and I felt sorry for the commuters. Just watching the routine they have, the commute must feel like they're living in purgatory.

The Cork woman with her career in London, and the guy who basically came home for 24 hours, and in that it had to include some sleep. I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't choose this life for themselves if it was avoidable.


Before I say what I'm going to next, I want to make clear that I'm from Dublin, and living in Dublin - but the attitude some Dubs have, well it's pure Dub snobbery at it's best. How the hell would you like to be told to pack up your stuff and go live somewhere you've no family or friends? I might add, this is being said to people that have families and houses they probably couldn't sell even if they wanted to.

Then you've the 'sell your big house and quit your winging' crew. I'm fairly certain that they may not have bought a house where they did if they had any idea what was ahead of them.


So we've Dub ignorance / snobbery and general begrudgery, this should make for a fun thread.

I don't think the posters were making the point that non-Dubs should move to Dublin.

They were rationalising that surely it is better for families to all be in the same place at one time - i.e. where the work is.

Someone mentions working to live rather the living to work. Someone commuting 4 hours a day on the train from Limerick sounds like they are living to work rather then working to live.

Cianos

Abi wrote: »

She objects to people telling non-Dubs to move to Dublin = attitude problem & chip on shoulder? Climb down off your little box there and stop making a show of yourself.


I watched this last night, and I felt sorry for the commuters. Just watching the routine they have, the commute must feel like they're living in purgatory.

The Cork woman with her career in London, and the guy who basically came home for 24 hours, and in that it had to include some sleep. I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't choose this life for themselves if it was avoidable.


Before I say what I'm going to next, I want to make clear that I'm from Dublin, and living in Dublin - but the attitude some Dubs have, well it's pure Dub snobbery at it's best. How the hell would you like to be told to pack up your stuff and go live somewhere you've no family or friends? I might add, this is being said to people that have families and houses they probably couldn't sell even if they wanted to.

Then you've the 'sell your big house and quit your winging' crew. I'm fairly certain that they may not have bought a house where they did if they had any idea what was ahead of them.


So we've Dub ignorance / snobbery and general begrudgery, this should make for a fun thread.

People can live wherever they want to and commute for however long they want, but they shouldn't then complain about how long it takes for them to get back to their house they're slaving away for but never get to enjoy.

There is also country snobbery where people outright refuse to consider living anywhere urban - it's a very Irish thing to not consider it a proper house unless it's on your own bit of land, whereas on the continent it's perfectly normal for people to live their whole lives in an apartment.

And guess what, their quality of life is probably much better on average. It's a bit rich for people to think it's bad parenting to raise a child in the city, when they actually don't have any hours left in the day to raise their child.

Abi

Diddler1977 wrote: »

They were rationalising that surely it is better for families to all be in the same place at one time - i.e. where the work is.

It's saying the exact same thing, but saying it nicely.

Someone mentions working to live rather the living to work. Someone commuting 4 hours a day on the train from Limerick sounds like they are living to work rather then working to live.

I know I couldn't do it without going do-lally. But I'd probably choose it over unemployment. For those that want to work, it's soul-destroying not having a job. A job is more than money just to pay the bills, it gives a feeling of self-worth. Jacking it in isn't an option for people carrying hefty mortgages and families, so they carry on because they have to.

Snowie

I commute 1200 kilometers a week going to college simpley because places to rent in dublin are complete **** holes...

eco2live

I think that the main reason why people put themselves through this in a lot of cases is debt and negative equity. The sooner people can declare themselves bankrupt the better. This bollox about keeping people in their homes is rubbish to prop up the banks. We will keep you in debt for the next 50 years more like. Is it worth it to own a house (or a pokey apartment?) Take the loss and start living again.

But if we take the loss then we need to take the austerity?? 20 hours commute and living on 50 quid a month not bad enough for people?

A house in Ireland is worth about 50 to 80k now in real terms with the job and wage prospects. If NAMA, rent allowance, mortgage allowance etc was not propping up the market then that's the kind of levels it would hit. for a short time anyway.

Then with a 300 a month mortgage people would be buying again soon and have some money to spend. Social welfare spend on rent allowance cut. It would be worth peoples while to work.

But we all know that the knowledge economy is going to save us :rolleyes:. All that investment in portacabins will pay off soon.

The main problems in Ireland remain untouched. Ireland's main problem is the failure of its systems and institutions. We have an incompetent government systems, public sector, local government, energy providers, regulators, fat cat unions etc and that still remains. 30% of Ireland are paying for 100% and that has always been the way. The 30% enjoys the same standard of living as the other 70%. It is a banana republic

summerskin

I spent 12 months after we moved to ireland commuting to london and back every week. I flew out of Shannon at 6.35am on monday and arrived back at 11pm on thursday. In London I stayed living in our house there, taking lodgers in the spare room to cover costs.

It was awful, missed my wife and daughter like crazy but at the time it was what we had to do. We moved to ireland because the firm I worked for said they were setting up an Irish office and wanted to me to do the groundwork and then manage it. My wife is irish and had wanted to move back for years, and we had also been looking to move out of london for some time, to give our daughter better way of life. The plan "got delayed", meaning for a while I had to commute back and forth, at least they let me work from home on fridays.

Soon the crash happened and the plan was shelved, though they did give me the option to keep commuting and working from home on fridays. The money was great, London wages followed by weekends in Clare, but missing my family made it not worth while so I quit(in part because my wife was pregnant with our second child).

I quit the job and spent 4 months looking for a job at a similar level(draining all our savings in the process), and finally found the job I am in now about three years ago. Of course the money is nowhere near as good as London wages

There used to be about 20 of us on that monday morning flight that commuted every week, I often wonder if any of them managed to make the move back here full time.

I'd never do it again though, and have turned down some jobs that pay substantially more than my current one, as it's just not worth being away from your family for the sake of work.

Cianos

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

I commute 1200 kilometers a week going to college simpley because places to rent in dublin are complete **** holes...

Some, not all. Same as everywhere.

stovelid

Good old AH. Savaged if you won't take a job or pay your mortgage; savaged if you take any job in desperation to do so.

Snowie

Cianos wrote: »

Some, not all. Same as everywhere.

thats a matter of taste

Abi

Cianos wrote: »

People can live wherever they want to and commute for however long they want, but they shouldn't then complain about how long it takes for them to get back to their house they're slaving away for but never get to enjoy.

That's not entirely true, now, is it?

There is also country snobbery where people outright refuse to consider living anywhere urban

I sit firmly on the fence on this one, neither one should be telling either where they should have to live.

- it's a very Irish thing to not consider it a proper house unless it's on your own bit of land, whereas on the continent it's perfectly normal for people to live their whole lives in an apartment.

That's a bit extreme tbh. Most people with families hope for a bit of a garden for their children to be able to play in. I don't really think that's asking too much.

It's a bit rich for people to think it's bad parenting to raise a child in the city, when they actually don't have any hours left in the day to raise their child.

I don't think they see it as bad parenting to raise a child in the city, I would imagine it's because it's less dangerous with traffic etc.

I think you've a set idea of what kind of people want to raise their children outside of the city, and they're wanna-be snobs in your eyes. The flip side of that coin is that the parents are working those hours and doing the commute for their children, to provide them a better quality of life. It's hardly bad parenting.

Azureus

I used to have a 3 hour daily commute to work/college when I lived at home and it sucked the joy out of everything for me. I used to actually dread going home because it was like an extra 2 hours added onto my working day. Yes, I had a nice garden and rent was very low but it was awful.

I gladly moved out closer to the city and pay twice what I was paying for a much smaller place than I had. But for the ability to actually enjoy my home after a days work, its worth every penny. Granted Im not locked into a mortgage or anything but it does come down to choice a lot of the time ie smaller/more expensive and less travelling, or larger cheaper and more travelling. Theres pros and cons to each.

That said I would choose a long commute over unemployment-I was recently asked to do a months stint in my job that would require living away from home or a 4.5hour daily commute and I took it because it was required of me. Ya gotta do what you gotta do and just get on with it.

CrazyRabbit

I live just 10 mins from where I work. Still to much travelling, so I work from home most days.

My time is far too valuable for me to be wasting it travelling long distances to/from work.

eco2live

I would choose unemployment. Its underrated on this thread. The hours are great and it comes with free rent and healthcare.

Cianos

Abi wrote: »

That's not entirely true, now, is it?

I meant that people make the choice that they want to make, over the alternative options available to them.

That's a bit extreme tbh. Most people with families hope for a bit of a garden for their children to be able to play in. I don't really think that's asking too much.

That depends. Maybe people over prioritise things like a garden and under prioritise things like city parks, a much wider range of extra curricular activities, the zoo, the cinema, the beach, a more diversified group of friends, the highly stimulating environment(s) a healthy city can provide and so on.

I think most people just don't even consider anything but a typical house, because the typical house with your front and back garden is the norm and that's that. It's why the commuter belt is covered in mundane housing estates in the middle of nowhere with the car needed to get anywhere or to do anything. And then people wonder why they're bored in their suburban bubble.

I don't think they see it as bad parenting to raise a child in the city, I would imagine it's because it's less dangerous with traffic etc.

Drugs, crime, traffic, strangers...these are the things people in a reactionary way think of. And I do maintain that many people would consider a parent raising their child in an environment that is associated with all these things as somewhat worse parents, all other factors being equal.

I think you've a set idea of what kind of people want to raise their children outside of the city, and they're wanna-be snobs in your eyes. The flip side of that coin is that the parents are working those hours and doing the commute for their children, to provide them a better quality of life. It's hardly bad parenting.

I'm saying that spending one exhausted hour in the evening with your child is more like child maintenance than parenting.

Snowie

Azureus wrote: »

I used to have a 3 hour daily commute to work/college when I lived at home and it sucked the joy out of everything for me. I used to actually dread going home because it was like an extra 2 hours added onto my working day. Yes, I had a nice garden and rent was very low but it was awful.

I gladly moved out closer to the city and pay twice what I was paying for a much smaller place than I had. But for the ability to actually enjoy my home after a days work, its worth every penny. Granted Im not locked into a mortgage or anything but it does come down to choice a lot of the time ie smaller/more expensive and less travelling, or larger cheaper and more travelling. Theres pros and cons to each.

That said I would choose a long commute over unemployment-I was recently asked to do a months stint in my job that would require living away from home or a 4.5hour daily commute and I took it because it was required of me. Ya gotta do what you gotta do and just get on with it.

your right fully relate to that...

Abi

Cianos wrote: »

I meant that people make the choice that they want to make, over the alternative options available to them.

Like what?

That depends. Maybe people over prioritise things like a garden and under prioritise things like city parks, a much wider range of extra curricular activities, the zoo, the cinema, the beach, a more diversified group of friends, the highly stimulating environment(s) a healthy city can provide and so on.

City parks - fine to visit with the parents. I'm talking about them being let out to play on a daily basis.

Zoo & cinema - these may not be an option to those really struggling.

The beach - Nice idea in theory, Irish weather has other ideas however.

I think most people just don't even consider anything but a typical house, because the typical house with your front and back garden is the norm and that's that. It's why the commuter belt is covered in mundane housing estates in the middle of nowhere with the car needed to get anywhere or to do anything. And then people wonder why they're bored in their suburban bubble.

Two points here - one, the 'gardens' given with the houses during the boom time, well you can't even call them that, and in some cases non-existent. Two, the houses sold during this time were often as impressive as their back gardens. You couldn't swing a cat in them, so calling them houses is a bit of a stretch.

I'm saying that spending one exhausted hour in the evening with your child is more like child maintenance than parenting.

I think you're more or less saying it's border-line negligent, and I don't think that's fair. Parents spending time with their children in the evening time and the weekend is a reality for most.

Would you be of the view that one of the parents stay at home? or is the commute the parents have to endure?

It's a catch 22 situation. Jobs nearby are scarce, and not paying enough to pay the bills, hence the lengthy commutes to better paid jobs.

stovelid

A lot of people don't live close to their jobs anyway. It takes me about an hour minutes to get to work now: 10 minute walk plus a 45-50 minute Luas ride. I could drive a pretty long distance out of the city in that time so it's relative.

The longest commute I ever had was about 2 hours each way by public transport from one end of Dublin to the other and it was awful. Thankfully I was able to alleviate this greatly by buying a car and then eventually, getting another job.

If I had that job now without the choice of the jobs market back then, I probably would have to suck it down because I have a family to support and don't have the luxury of limitless platitudes about my quality of life.