Zinedane Zidane.

Rikand

matt le tissier

bullvine

Warper wrote: »

So basically all British and Irish players can never be considered great. Same goes for all Asian and African players. Players like Best, Weah, Van Basten, C Ronaldo, Batistuta etc. can never be great players using your logic.

I said the reason the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff and Beckenbauer are always near the top on the all time lists is because they did it at the World Cup, I'm not trying to belittle Messi, himself and Ronaldo are the best players since Maradona. What I was saying was that the others above have their reputations based on performances in World Cups on top of everything else. Look at Raul, for example, if he had a good World Cup in career, he'd probably be mentioned in the same breath as above but unfortunately he didn't. Is that really that hard to understand.

bullvine

Warper wrote: »

Ronaldo's Club career Apps 518 Goals 352 (1993 - 2011) 18 years

That is his entire career.

Remember Messi has turned 24 and has over 200 club goals already so equally as impressive is wrong.

Your the one who brought up stats. Ronaldo's later career was destroyed by injuries, whose to know Messi wont go the same way, why dont you compare Ronaldo up till the age of 24!

Warper

bullvine wrote: »

Your the one who brought up stats. Ronaldo's later career was destroyed by injuries, whose to know Messi wont go the same way, why dont you compare Ronaldo up till the age of 24!

Youre the one who mentioned Ronaldo's stats so i brought them up. Just because they compare unfavourably with Messi there is no need to be really annoyed when you are plain wrong. Messi's stats is better than anyone and he is just gone 24. There is so much more improvement in him which is scary yet beautiful.

aidan24326

bullvine wrote: »

Your the one who brought up stats. Ronaldo's later career was destroyed by injuries, whose to know Messi wont go the same way, why dont you compare Ronaldo up till the age of 24!

It wouldn't matter as Messi is a better player no matter how you look at it. Ronaldo was very good but Messi is a genius.

Fowler87

aidan24326 wrote: »

It wouldn't matter as Messi is a better player no matter how you look at it. Ronaldo was very good but Messi is a genius.

Ronaldo was more than very good. Incredible footballer in his pomp

aidan24326

aidan24326 wrote: »

It wouldn't matter as Messi is a better player no matter how you look at it. Ronaldo was very good but Messi is a genius.

You're saying Ronaldo wasn't a genius? What are you smoking?

Iang87

I will never feel that a player has to win a world cup to be considered great.

If messi scores 50 a year for the next 3 years and happens to pull a hamstring before the 2014 world cup, will that mean he will never be remembered in the top level of great players of all time

Warper

Fowler87 wrote: »

Ronaldo was more than very good. Incredible footballer in his pomp

Completely agree - he was unstoppable and was also a genius. He had it all, pace, strength and lethal finishing. Will always be one of the greats.

bullvine

Warper wrote: »

Youre the one who mentioned Ronaldo's stats so i brought them up. Just because they compare unfavourably with Messi there is no need to be really annoyed when you are plain wrong. Messi's stats is better than anyone and he is just gone 24. There is so much more improvement in him which is scary yet beautiful.

What are you smoking? You brought up stats with your copy and paste job about Messi from wikipedia!

bullvine

Iang87 wrote: »

I will never feel that a player has to win a world cup to be considered great.

If messi scores 50 a year for the next 3 years and happens to pull a hamstring before the 2014 world cup, will that mean he will never be remembered in the top level of great players of all time

Thats not what I am trying to say, Messi is incredible and is well on his way to maybe being the greatest but his legacy will be tainted if he doesnt do it at the World Cup, is that so hard to understand!

Son Of A Vidic

Warper wrote: »

Ronaldo's Club career Apps 518 Goals 352 (1993 - 2011) 18 years

That is his entire career.

Remember Messi has turned 24 and has over 200 club goals already so equally as impressive is wrong.

Ronaldo's career was destroyed by his knees and yet what he achieved is remarkable. Messi has not had to surmount the obstacles that Ronaldo did. Messi is a lucky boy to be surrounded by so many great players. For me he hasn't been seriously challenged yet.

Messi was non-existent at the last World Cup, great players tend to step up to the plate at World Cups. Take Maradona, he's my number 3 actually. Now he carried Argentina to the '86' World Cup. Unfortunately his knees were destroyed in Italy at a time when such players weren't protected.

Messi has time on his side, but personally I can't ever see him matching Maradona.

Iang87

bullvine wrote: »

Thats not what I am trying to say, Messi is incredible and is well on his way to maybe being the greatest but his legacy will be tainted if he doesnt do it at the World Cup, is that so hard to understand!

frankly to be honest it is. Is cruyffs legacy tainted

rossc007

This thread needs a poll

Zidane is the best player I've ever seen, looked like men against boys whenever he played and I don't remember him having a bad game. Plus he loafed that twat Materazzi.

Seen plenty of Maradona, but he was such a different player its hard to compare the two. Comparing players who play in different positions is complicated because they play the game differently. It would be easier to compare Zidane to Xavi or Maradona to Messi than comparing Zidane to Maradona. Having said that, if I could pick one to play for Liverpool, I'd take Zidane by a hair :P

bullvine

Cruyff was brilliant in 74 as far I have heard.

aidan24326

Deleted User wrote: »

You're saying Ronaldo wasn't a genius? What are you smoking?

Ronaldo was a great player and I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying that Messi is better. That's all.

If you had to choose between them in a fantasy 11 which would you pick? I reckon most would choose Messi, as would I. And that's no bad reflection on Ronaldo who was a great player in his own right. It's a shame his career became so blighted by injury.

Iang87

bullvine wrote: »

Cruyff was brilliant in 74 as far I have heard.

but he didnt win it.

Why I dont understand your argument is that you must be born in a certain country to be the greatest of all time. Pele said best was the greatest he ever seen, but i dont think he ever even played in a world cup.

Thats why I think the argument is stupid

bullvine

Look back over my posts, what I said was he needs to perform at the World Cup, he doesnt have to win it, just show up, hes still got at least 2 more in him at this stage, so it could happen.

aidan24326

aidan24326 wrote: »

Ronaldo was a great player and I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying that Messi is better. That's all.

If you had to choose between them in a fantasy 11 which would you pick? I reckon most would choose Messi, as would I. And that's no bad reflection on Ronaldo who was a great player in his own right. It's a shame his career became so blighted by injury.

Indeed it was. It really does depend on the team to be honest. For example Ronaldo was the perfect player for the Real Madrid team he played in.

Iang87

but why does he need to perform at a world cup thats my question to you?

Why will a players legacy be boiled down to 7 matches every 4 years

bullvine

Because that is what history as shown us but its not just the world cup, its everything else on top of it.

Oh and talking of Pele and some things hes said, check out

Google - Pele: Lionel Messi is an incomplete player

Iang87

whats everything else on top of it

clubberlang12

Before Messi, for years there was heated debate about who was better, Pele or Maradona. That debate would never have being settled. Why? Because it is personal interpretation that will make anyone decide who they think was better and for what reason. It's not a mathematical equation with a definite answer. The same debate will go on about Messi, and the next genius after that. I was too young to see Pele (and Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Puskas, etc) live regularly on television. I was barely old enough to remeber the magical Maradona of the 80's(although my father was at the 86 World Cup and said words couldn't describe seeing him play in person). I am just thankful that another supremel talented player like Messi has come around in an age where all matches are viewable and quality footage a key-stroke away.
And to anyone who can't, or too young, to remember the "original" Ronaldo, the boy was more than very good, he was a genius.

Iang87

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Before Messi, for years there was heated debate about who was better, Pele or Maradona. That debate would never have being settled. Why? Because it is personal interpretation that will make anyone decide who they think was better and for what reason. It's not a mathematical equation with a definite answer. The same debate will go on about Messi, and the next genius after that. I was too young to see Pele (and Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Puskas, etc) live regularly on television. I was barely old enough to remeber the magical Maradona of the 80's(although my father was at the 86 World Cup and said words couldn't describe seeing him play in person). I am just thankful that another supremel talented player like Messi has come around in an age where all matches are viewable and quality footage a key-stroke away.
And to anyone who can't, or too young, to remember the "original" Ronaldo, the boy was more than very good, he was a genius.

stop sitting on the fence you

Iang87

bullvine wrote: »

Because that is what history as shown us but its not just the world cup, its everything else on top of it.

Oh and talking of Pele and some things hes said, check out

Google - Pele: Lionel Messi is an incomplete player

sorry my fault for quoting pele. Isn't he the same man who said an african side won win a world cup by 2000.

I assume he only said that cos he's argentine.

Bodhisopha

bullvine wrote: »

Look back over my posts, what I said was he needs to perform at the World Cup, he doesnt have to win it, just show up, hes still got at least 2 more in him at this stage, so it could happen.

At the rate he's going, he really doesn't need to. Over 50 games per season, over 50 goals per season, a 3rd consecutive WPOTY award most likely on its way... Of course lifting the world cup would be the ideal most iconic way to cap it but doing it game after game, season after season trumps a run of 7 or so games every 4 years in the summer. The levels of consistency are nowhere near comparable. You seem to be picking and choosing the criteria to suit your argument. Why not choose longevity? Mentality? Professionalism? Doing more at a younger age etc?

Dempsey

bullvine wrote: »

Because that is what history as shown us but its not just the world cup, its everything else on top of it.

Oh and talking of Pele and some things hes said, check out

Google - Pele: Lionel Messi is an incomplete player

"I would love to play with Lionel Messi. But Messi is an incomplete player because he can't use his head. Also I played football for 20 years, Messi has only played for several years."

I do believe Messi scored a header in a Champions League final once

Google - Messi header

bullvine

I'm not picking and choosing, if he continues his astonishing club career he probably will be the greatest but wouldnt it be nice for him to do it in 2014 to top everything off and then there can be no debate at all.

bullvine

Dempsey wrote: »

I do believe Messi scored a header in a Champions League final once

Google - Messi header

I think Pele also said Denilson was the best player in the world

Iang87

bullvine wrote: »

I think Pele also said Denilson was the best player in the world

oh that pele. Theres a man who really shouldn't open his mouth. erection problems ..... anyone

bullvine

Has anybody been reading the Football Pantheon Website by Miguel Delaney, I found it fascinating.

aidan24326

Iang87 wrote: »

sorry my fault for quoting pele. Isn't he the same man who said an african side won win a world cup by 2000

Yes, the same Pele who reckoned El Hadj Diouf was one of the top players in the world, so I'd take anything he says with a pinch of salt. And in all fairness when you have feet as gifted as Messi has who needs heading ability? Maradona never headed the ball in his life and it didn't stop him from being one of the greatest players of all time.

Iang87

aidan24326 wrote: »

Yes, the same Pele who reckoned El Hadj Diouf was one of the top players in the world, so I'd take anything he says with a pinch of salt. And in all fairness when you have feet as gifted as Messi has who needs heading ability? Maradona never headed the ball in his life and it didn't stop him from being one of the greatest players of all time.

i think you're forgetting a super header against england in the world cup

Bodhisopha

Poor old Zidane barely got a mention in his own thread.

bullvine

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Poor old Zidane barely got a mention in his own thread.

and what does that tell you......

aidan24326

Iang87 wrote: »

i think you're forgetting a super header against england in the world cup

Haha. Forgot that one alright. One of the truly great headers in World Cup history

Tech3

Pavel Nedved

doc_17

That Zidane goal against leverkeusen (I think) in the European Cup final was unreal.

Warper

bullvine wrote: »

Also, if you wanna pull stats from Wikipedia as above, try pulling Brazilian Ronaldo's, they are equally as impressive as Messi.

I did in a prev post but they are not as impressive as Messi's. No one can better Messi's stats.

Bodhisopha

bullvine wrote: »

and what does that tell you......

It tells me that if some people didn't ludicrously suggest he was the best player ever, or even the best they've ever seen it would've been about him rather than people like Pele, Messi and Maradona.

Iang87

doc_17 wrote: »

That Zidane goal against leverkeusen (I think) in the European Cup final was unreal.

would you mind staying on topic. We're talking about messi.


some people, christ above

Ulysses Gaze

Maradona was the best I've seen.

Not just because of the World Cup - but because in an Era where Serie A was by far the best league in the World he took a relatively 'small' club to two Serie A titles and a UEFA cup in an Era where he was up against Saachi's Milan, Trap's Juve then Trap's Inter - and in a league where the best players in the world were playing at the time.

He made the best defenders in the World at the time look like clowns in some games - check out the Napoli:Milan game from 1988 where they (Napoli) took the Milan defence apart and beat them 4:1.

Second would be Brazilian Ronaldo up until he got badly injured at Inter.

I'd put Messi third.

As a Juve fan I'd rate Alex Del Piero and Pavel Nedved ahead of Zidane for Juve - although not ahead of Zidane overall as he was immense for France and Real.

Dotrel

Iang87 wrote: »

would you mind staying on topic. We're talking about messi.


some people, christ above

No were not. This is a thread about Diego Maradona.

Dempsey

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Maradona was the best I've seen.

Not just because of the World Cup - but because in an Era where Serie A was by far the best league in the World he took a relatively 'small' club to two Serie A titles and a UEFA cup in an Era where he was up against Saachi's Milan, Trap's Juve then Trap's Inter - and in a league where the best players in the world were playing at the time.

He made the best defenders in the World at the time look like clowns in some games - check out the Napoli:Milan game from 1988 where they (Napoli) took the Milan defence apart and beat them 4:1.

Second would be Brazilian Ronaldo up until he got badly injured at Inter.

I'd put Messi third.

Alot of his greatest performances came after those injuries.

Ulysses Gaze

Dempsey wrote: »

Alot of his greatest performances came after those injuries.

Granted yes. I don't think he was ever as consistently as brilliant though.

But his performance against Man Utd in the ECL was as good as I've seen from an individual player.

Dotrel

In case it's not been mentioned Zidane has won everything there is to win. Both international tournaments, the Champions League and League titles in two of the 'big' leagues. I don't think many players can match that claim (maybe Henry)? Some other players will have bigger medal hauls but to me Zidane's is one of the most impressive. Further so because he was the leader and center of those teams.

Dempsey

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Granted yes. I don't think he was ever as consistently as brilliant though.

But his performance against Man Utd in the ECL was as good as I've seen from an individual player.

He carried a very average Brazilian team, they were struggling for form for at least a year, to a World Cup in 2002. He was just back from a 2nd career threatening knee injury and buried the memory of the 1998 World Cup final in emphatic fashion.

That performance against Man U was another excellent showcase of his ability.

Bodhisopha

Dotrel wrote: »

In case it's not been mentioned Zidane has won everything there is to win. Both international tournaments, the Champions League and League titles in two of the 'big' leagues. I don't think many players can match that claim (maybe Henry)? Some other players will have bigger medal hauls but to me Zidane's is one of the most impressive. Further so because he was the leader and center of those teams.

Xavis medal haul is much more impressive.

Zidane's club haul isn't all that impressive, especially when you consider he was part of the Gallactico era which is viewed by many as a bit of a failure.

wandatowell

Not liking this talk of medal haul. Not really a good indication of a players quality.

Dotrel

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Xavis medal haul is much more impressiv

It would be if he left his well oiled machine at Barca and La Liga behind and went to the Prem or Italy and won it all again there too. If he did that then I'd agree with you.