Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

profitius

Whats the score?

thomond2006

Ah ****.... marginal pass IMO.

Taco Corp

profitius wrote: »

Whats the score?

23-5 clermont

Burgo

Clermont 23 - 5 Leicester

Leicester still down to 13.

yimrsg

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sky Sports boys are very quick to hype Fofana as France's number 12, gotta be Jauzion IMO.

They're referencing a L'Equipe article about the supposed French team for the 6 nations.

Quint2010

23-5

CIARAN_BOYLE

profitius wrote: »

Whats the score?

23-5 Leicster wih 13 for another 2 minutes

Taco Corp

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah ****.... marginal pass IMO.

Looked forward on the replay

Taco Corp

Leicester back to 15

CatFromHue

Ulster really need Leciester to stop Clermont getting 4 trys today and Leicester to beat Clermont next week. If either team get any bonus points from today or next week it could put Ulster out.

Burgo

Some little chip from parra.

thomond2006

Another try for Fofana. Gorgeous grubber from James.

Quint2010

Brilliant try. Clermont going to be a real threat this year.

Taco Corp

Another try clermont, Fofana

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bonnaire in the bin Leicster penalty try

Burgo

Bonnaire gone for the last 10.

thomond2006

penalty try for Leicester, off scrum dominance

30-12, too late to chase LBP at this stage

thomond2006

game over, 4 points for Clermont, 0 for Leicester. Good news for Ulster.

decisions

What a weekend of rugby!

GerM

No BP for either side. Good result for Ulster, Leinster and Munster. Looking like the winner of this group might have to settle for an away QF. Wouldn't be surprised for Clermont to be back in the RDS or Thomond in the QF.

The more I see of it, the more I think this season's HEC is a lower standard overall than previous years. I think Toulouse are very likely winners unless they get a very tough away semi final. The quality and depth they possess is beyond anyone else in the tournament. Pools 1, 2 and 5 have been of a mediocre standard I think overall. Fantastic games to watch at times but really no performances that would make you think any of the teams are worthy HEC champions. Cardiff and Munster could very well find themselves in the semi finals without having turned in one big performance. Leinster certainly aren't the side they were last season thus far although there's time for them to click. I don't think that's going to be the case though and BOD and Hines are simply irreplaceable. They won't be in the final unless they get a fortunate draw and one or two people up their game. Clermont, on their day, are superb but are also quite brittle. Their failure to secure a BP today and their loss in Ravenhill undermines their credentials significantly for me.

Next week will be interesting and we'll start to see what the likely match ups are for the QF.

matthew8

Leinster not the same as last year? They're far better in the league, and have won in Bath (very hard) and got a draw in Montpellier (not easy) as well as securing a bonus point against Glasgow, meanwhile Toulouse were very lucky to win at home to Gloucester. It's a case of Toulouse, Leinster and the chasing pack (Clermont, Munster, Cardiff, Saracens, Ospreys, Ulster, Cardiff, Harlequins and Scarlets though Biarritz, Glasgow and Edinburgh could also be in the chasing pack). Glasgow and Edinburgh could make the quarters if they win next week.

totallegend

Great result for Ulster, if they can keep the pressue up with a bp win in Italy next week then this group will go all the way. You have to feel that if they are going to Clermont needing anything then it's not going to happen.

Great weekend of hc rugby all round and Sky got their game selection spot on. At this stage, it's hard to see past Toulouse for the win, but so much will depend on home advantage at semi final stage. Leinser and Munster need to sharpen up in a big way, both teams lacked the real control that potential champions need. Still,both are in with a decent shot at a home qf. The fact that both Northampton and Montpellier are out of real contention will help them massively. I think the away quarter finalists will come from Ulsters group and the Saracens/Ospreys group.

It really is an awesome tournament.

Benny Cake

I would not like to face Clermont in a quarter final, home or away they will take some beating!!

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

Great result for Ulster, if they can keep the pressue up with a bp win in Italy next week then this group will go all the way. You have to feel that if they are going to Clermont needing anything then it's not going to happen.

I can't see them not needing a losing bonus point at least in Clermont. They're on 9 points now and I think they'll get another 9 from the Aironi and Leicester game. That'll put them on 18. Clermont are on 10 now. I think/hope Leicester will beat them next week and they'll get 5 against Aironi which'll put them on 15 before the Ulster game. A Clermont win in this game will put them on 19 but if Ulster finish within 5 of Clermont they'll go through on the aggregate score of the two games.

If Clermont win next week it Ulster will have to win in Clermont.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

I can't see them not needing a losing bonus point at least in Clermont. They're on 9 points now and I think they'll get another 9 from the Aironi and Leicester game. That'll put them on 18. Clermont are on 10 now. I think/hope Leicester will beat them next week and they'll get 5 against Aironi which'll put them on 15 before the Ulster game. A Clermont win in this game will put them on 19 but if Ulster finish within 5 of Clermont they'll go through on the aggregate score of the two games.

If Clermont win next week it Ulster will have to win in Clermont.

If Clermont win next week Ulster will be in a great position to claim second spot imo and with 18 points they could claim a best runners up spot and qualify for the QFs like that.

ambid

Fair points being made here I guess, but it's only December and we don't need our teams to be peaking now. Toulouse and Clermont both look excellent, but Leinster also look strong. They are getting results now and if their performances can peak next Spring, then that would be the ideal scenario for me.

Sean Fitzpatrick on Sky thought Leinster were "outstanding", and he doesn't lavish praise around. Dean Ryan said Leinster are the best side he's seen at the breakdown. Fitzpatrick thinks Toulouse and Leinster are the outstanding performers so far in the competition.

The big deal so far for me is the performance of Treviso. It's brilliant to see an Italian side so competitive.

CatFromHue

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If Clermont win next week Ulster will be in a great position to claim second spot imo and with 18 points they could claim a best runners up spot and qualify for the QFs like that.

I'm not sure. Since the competition moved to 4 points for a win 19 points was the lowest to get into the quarters. 18 could put them in the Amlin though.

thomond2006

Hopefully Treviso can turn over Saracens at home in January and be unbeaten in Europe at home this season.

Flincher

Looking across the groups, I think the points required to get into the semis as a runner-up will be fairly low.

Ulster are 9 points, and they still have to travel to Aironi and Clermont. A bonus win over Aironi, win over Leicester at home, and losing bonus in Clermont is probably their limit. That would leave them on 19. A losing bonus for Clermont in Welford Road next week, 5 points from Aironi, and a win against Ulster will probably give them the pool on 20.

Its all boiling down to Ulster v Leicester, but my guess is Ulster need 2 wins and 2 bonus to be in with a shout of a quarter final.

.ak

I'd agree some of the games so far have been hot n cold... But the desperation for wins really does make some great rugby. I think Leinster are on the right track, and it's good that they possibly get the worst game out of them now... Kinda a mirror of last year, the away game to Sarries wasn't great, but they ground out a win.

I think Round 4 is where we'll see the strong quarter finalists show their faces.

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

so are you finally going to admit Northampton are out of the cup and I was right???

Well they're out now, they weren't then as I explained.
Good grudge holding though.

GerM

.ak wrote: »

I'd agree some of the games so far have been hot n cold... But the desperation for wins really does make some great rugby. I think Leinster are on the right track, and it's good that they possibly get the worst game out of them now... Kinda a mirror of last year, the away game to Sarries wasn't great, but they ground out a win.

I think the Sarries game was on another level. They went there with a losing BP being seen as a solid result and won with a massively gutsy performance. Sarries were the AP runners up at that point and on their way to becoming champs. Bath aren't in the same bracket. I agree though it's good for them to have that performance now. No complacency. That showing might have lit a bit of a fire under a few people in terms of their lackadaisical approach in some elements of their execution.

GerM

matthew8 wrote: »

Leinster not the same as last year? They're far better in the league, and have won in Bath (very hard) and got a draw in Montpellier (not easy) as well as securing a bonus point against Glasgow, meanwhile Toulouse were very lucky to win at home to Gloucester. It's a case of Toulouse, Leinster and the chasing pack (Clermont, Munster, Cardiff, Saracens, Ospreys, Ulster, Cardiff, Harlequins and Scarlets though Biarritz, Glasgow and Edinburgh could also be in the chasing pack). Glasgow and Edinburgh could make the quarters if they win next week.

Toulouse were missing a glut of players against Gloucester; the majority of their French internationals weren't involved. With Dusautoir, Fritz, Clerc, Medard, and Picamoles in the side they can play to another level. It's testament to their depth that they can play without so many players and still win against a decent side. Consider they were also without the likes of Steenkamp, Bouilhou and Albacete on that day and it gets scary.

I don't think we can compare today's win against a Bath side that has been playing like a drain is comparable to winning away to the current AP champions in Saracens last year or taking apart Racing with a BP. The league was simply a matter of Leinster getting into their stride and clicking. This season the younger players are more competent and capable of winning the Pro12 games that they couldn't win last year on their own.

Podge_irl

There have been surprisingly few bonus point wins in the HEC so far this season. None of the group leaders with 3 wins have gotten any BPs so the number needed for a home QF may not be as high as in other years.

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not sure. Since the competition moved to 4 points for a win 19 points was the lowest to get into the quarters. 18 could put them in the Amlin though.

SF got in on 18 points two years ago, though that was as group leaders.

iroced

What a poor boring game from Montpellier in Glasgow. I almost fell asleep... . Anyway, I remember people accusing me of cute hoorism in here . Well, I knew that HCup is all about experience. And a LBP in Glasgow is not a bad performance in itself for us, especially with almost a "B" team out. So far it's a good series for us : draw against the European champion at home, 2 LBP in close games away to Bath & Glasgow. Nothing to be ashamed of. And our HCup performances helped us to comeback up in the Top 14. So now, we need to catch one of the top 6 positions to be there next year stronger . Oh and we have to win our 2 home games. Staying unbeaten at home in the HCup for our 1st ever participation would be sweat

As for the other teams. Well. No surprise. Munster and Leinster are strong. Toulouse too. Cardiff seems to be an improving team. Clermont will have a chance if they get something in Leicester. But they often choke somewhere and finish just a couple of points short to qualify or get a tough away 1/4f. Their defeat in Ulster could haunt them...

wixfjord

Ulster would be in a seriously good position if they could get a 5 pointer again against Aironi, and hope that the other game finished 4-0 to Leicester.

Would leave them 2 ahead of Leicester with two to go, and a LBP in Clermont and win in Ravers against Leicester would surely see them through.

jacothelad

wixfjord wrote: »

Ulster would be in a seriously good position if they could get a 5 pointer again against Aironi, and hope that the other game finished 4-0 to Leicester.

Would leave them 2 ahead of Leicester with two to go, and a LBP in Clermont and win in Ravers against Leicester would surely see them through.

It's a nice thought but I just can't see us getting a losing bonus in France. Clermont are a more daunting side at home. Nor can I see Ulster getting far enough ahead of the Tigers at Ravenhill to deny them a losing bonus - assuming we win in the first place, which we should. We need to stop them from getting one to limit them to 17 points. They won't get 5 against Clermont but will against Aironi. 8+4+5 = 17..or 18 if they get a bonus at Ravenhill....(or 21 if they win there.)

There is still the little matter of Ulster getting 5 points against Aironi to negotiate first. 9+5+4 =18..or 19 if we get a bonus loss in France. It's not something that happens very often. A 35 all draw with Toulouse is our best ever result in France and that was years ago.

I suspect Clermont are heading for a pool win even if they are empty handed against Tigers. I'm pretty sure they will get 10 points from the games against Aironi and Ulster and at least 1 from Welford Road giving them an unassailable 21 points.

Clermont ..21
Ulster .......18
Tigers .......17
Aironi ........0

totallegend

Thornley mentioned it in his column today, but the attitude of the French this year is atrocious.

• Castres would be real contenders to win Munster's group if they only bothered their arse to compete.
• Racing Metro are a joke, to lose at home to London Irish (giving them a BP in the process) is inexcusable.
• Montpellier showed in the first game that they are well capable of making an impact, but the team they sent to Glasgow was never going to win.
• Biarritz lost in Italy last year, yet still sent a weakened team to Treviso (who had a win over the Ospreys snatched from their grasp) and paid the price.

Only Clermont and Toulouse are really giving everything to the HC this year, and it's a shame.

danthefan

As a rule you have to basically ignore anything Thornley says about France. He seems to have some real issue there, no idea why.

profitius

totallegend wrote: »

Thornley mentioned it in his column today, but the attitude of the French this year is atrocious.

• Castres would be real contenders to win Munster's group if they only bothered their arse to compete.
• Racing Metro are a joke, to lose at home to London Irish (giving them a BP in the process) is inexcusable.
• Montpellier showed in the first game that they are well capable of making an impact, but the team they sent to Glasgow was never going to win.
• Biarritz lost in Italy last year, yet still sent a weakened team to Treviso (who had a win over the Ospreys snatched from their grasp) and paid the price.

Only Clermont and Toulouse are really giving everything to the HC this year, and it's a shame.

I think its because they're being realistic. They know their chances of winning are slim and they don't have a squad of Clermont/Toulouse's size to compete on both fronts.

thomond2006

If I was Biarritz coach, I wouldn't give two ****s about the HEC this year.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

I think its because they're being realistic. They know their chances of winning are slim and they don't have a squad of Clermont/Toulouse's size to compete on both fronts.

Agree with this.

I guess I'm completely on my own here but I think it's absolutely laughable for any Irish rugby fan/journo to have a go at any other team for how they treat a competition considering how we treat the Pro12. Our top players might play 8 or 9 regular games a season out of 22. It gets brushed over though because Leinster and Munster still have the squads to compete.

vinny chase

danthefan wrote: »

Agree with this.

I guess I'm completely on my own here but I think it's absolutely laughable for any Irish rugby fan/journo to have a go at any other team for how they treat a competition considering how we treat the Pro12. Our top players might play 8 or 9 regular games a season out of 22. It gets brushed over though because Leinster and Munster still have the squads to compete.

I think you're completely right on that.

The money tied up in so many of these French clubs means that qualification for the HEC every year via their domestic league and the money that brings is more important than actually doing well in the competition once you get there.

That's why you'll still see them field a strong side at home to bring in the crowds, but I think they're just being realistic.

molloyjh

danthefan wrote: »

Agree with this.

I guess I'm completely on my own here but I think it's absolutely laughable for any Irish rugby fan/journo to have a go at any other team for how they treat a competition considering how we treat the Pro12. Our top players might play 8 or 9 regular games a season out of 22. It gets brushed over though because Leinster and Munster still have the squads to compete.

I dunno, I think it's a little unfair to say that we don't take the Pro12 seriously. We obviously do. But with such a limited player pool the game as a whole has to be managed differently here to how it is in somewhere like France.

Historically a lot of French teams have shown up at home and not really bothered too much away from home in the HEC. They don't feel it is something they should be aiming to win. Yet Leinster and Munster in particular look to win both competitions. As is evidenced by our records in them. We rarely go into any games half assed and not bothered, and we use the Pro12 as a vehicle to improve our squad depth to be more competitive in both competitions. The French teams seem to use their (lack of) squad depth as an excuse not to compete.

What the French teams themselves choose to do and feel is best for them is fine by me either way though. It's bad enough having to face the likes of Clermont and Toulouse anyway!

yimrsg

Many of the French teams have such low ranking points for the HC that they're usually the 4th tier club in their groups such as Castres, Montpellier and Metro. Connacht is a head of them in the rankings.

The present system is never going to encourage the likes of the above French teams to try make a bigger impact in the HC when they could easily miss out in HC qualification by neglecting the top 14.

phog

From RTE.ie

England scrum-half Danny Care will not face any disciplinary action from the Rugby Football Union after being arrested and fined on suspicion of being drunk and disorderly.

The 24-year-old was arrested at 3am on Saturday in Weybridge following his club side Harlequins' 21-10 defeat by Toulouse at the Stoop.

I wonder what Conor O'Shea thinks of this, he doesn't seem the type that would accept this sort of behaviour during match week-ends.

greendom

totallegend wrote: »

Thornley mentioned it in his column today, but the attitude of the French this year is atrocious.

• Castres would be real contenders to win Munster's group if they only bothered their arse to compete.
• Racing Metro are a joke, to lose at home to London Irish (giving them a BP in the process) is inexcusable.
• Montpellier showed in the first game that they are well capable of making an impact, but the team they sent to Glasgow was never going to win.
• Biarritz lost in Italy last year, yet still sent a weakened team to Treviso (who had a win over the Ospreys snatched from their grasp) and paid the price.

Only Clermont and Toulouse are really giving everything to the HC this year, and it's a shame.

To a degree this is due to the importance of the national competition. It is far more important to French clubs than the Rabo-Direct is to Irish clubs.

iroced

totallegend wrote: »

Thornley mentioned it in his column today, but the attitude of the French this year is atrocious.

• Castres would be real contenders to win Munster's group if they only bothered their arse to compete.
• Racing Metro are a joke, to lose at home to London Irish (giving them a BP in the process) is inexcusable.
• Montpellier showed in the first game that they are well capable of making an impact, but the team they sent to Glasgow was never going to win.
• Biarritz lost in Italy last year, yet still sent a weakened team to Treviso (who had a win over the Ospreys snatched from their grasp) and paid the price.

Only Clermont and Toulouse are really giving everything to the HC this year, and it's a shame.

I don't know who this Thornley is but I'd seriously question his understanding of professional sport after reading that.

In ALL professional sports, the main factor to get a win is the ability to play with and under pressure. It doesn't matter how good you are in the first place, if you can't deal with the pressure you'll never achieve anything. And the best way to improve your ability to deal with it is experience.

If you look at the top sides. Surprise surprise. They are playing this competition almost every year. Toulouse, Munster, Leinster, Leicester etc...

So.

Montpellier. 1st time ever in the H Cup. What is he expecting? The team we sent in Glasgow is a team that had to be rotated after 3 games in 1 week in the TOP 14 (thank you FFR) and a succession of injuries due to this hectic week.

Castres. 2nd participation in a row. They are learning. And they are in a very tough group.

Racing Metro. Same than Castres (but for the tough group). They still need to find a good balance in their team. Their defeat in Edinburgh clearly shows their lack of experience. Any team used to this competition would have closed the game and impeded the Scots crazy finale.

Biarritz. They are having an awful season. They could actually be relegated if they continue like that which would be a massive massive blow. So H Cup is probably not the last of their concern. But they can still qualify.


Conclusion ?

danthefan wrote: »

As a rule you have to basically ignore anything Thornley says about France. He seems to have some real issue there, no idea why.

:cool:

CIARAN_BOYLE

iroced wrote: »

I don't know who this Thornley is but I'd seriously question his understanding of professional sport after reading that.

senior rugby correspondent in one of Irelands most popular newspapers. Which says a lot about the quality of Irish print media doesn't it.