Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

thomond2006

haha cheeky Quins on the touchline

totallegend

A quins win here is good news for leinster and munster but hurts ulster's chances of getting through as a best runner up.

Great to see that toulouse are beatable though.

Spudmonkey

What a result.

ongarite

Massive massive win. Fair play to Conor O'Shea.
They totally changed tactics from last week and pulled off a great win.

decisions

Well done Quins, must watch the game later.

ray jay

ongarite wrote: »

Massive massive win. Fair play to Conor O'Shea.
They totally changed tactics from last week and pulled off a great win.

Yeah got to give them credit for hanging in with 14 men.

Benny Cake

Only serves to further cement in my mind that Conor O'Shea should be the next Irish coach...

Quins have done the Irish clubs a huge favour!!

GerM

Superb by Quins. That group is wide open now. Wouldn't be surprised if both sides progress now as I reckon they'll both win their final two games.

GerM

Benny Cake wrote: »

Only serves to further cement in my mind that Conor O'Shea should be the next Irish coach...

Quins have done the Irish clubs a huge favour!!

I was thinking that too. Then I also thought that it means Quins might now be one of the best runners up which would be a very tough QF. They've the organisation and effort to beat anyone on their day. Ideally, Glos will beat Toulouse and Quins will top the group with about 20 points which could see them with an away QF.

GerM

45-0 to Northampton. Castres should have a look at themselves. It's one thing putting out a weakened side but it's a totally different thing when they don't bother making an effort on the field in the final stages. They simply gave up. 33 points conceded in the last 18 minutes.

Castres have won only 1 game away from home in the last 10 years of the HEC (Treviso) which is a truly shocking statistic given some of the teams they have faced.

4PP

GerM wrote: »

45-0 to Northampton. Castres should have a look at themselves. It's one thing putting out a weakened side but it's a totally different thing when they don't bother making an effort on the field in the final stages. They simply gave up. 33 points conceded in the last 18 minutes.

Castres have won only 1 game away from home in the last 10 years of the HEC which is a truly shocking statistic given some of the teams they have faced.

Why? They play in a real professionel league where getting relegated could mean the death of the club not to mention the loss of jobs for quite a few people. These European cups are but a sideshow for them. If they do well fine, if not it doesn't matter. Their home league is rightly their bread & butter.
You cannot criticize a club for wanting to exist & survive instead of pandering to the whim's of the ERC and their unlevel playing field.

iroced

GerM wrote: »

45-0 to Northampton. Castres should have a look at themselves. It's one thing putting out a weakened side but it's a totally different thing when they don't bother making an effort on the field in the final stages. They simply gave up. 33 points conceded in the last 18 minutes.

When they realised it was over they just gave up. Understandable. What's the point in tiring yourself up risking an injury for nothing when you'll be facing tough games in your domestic league?

thomond2006

The exact same conditions apply to Racing but they send a strong team to London Irish and won.

Benny Cake

It also affects the balance of the group, they basically gave up 4 trys today which could have affected final placings had Northampton been in contention...

4PP

thomond2006 wrote: »

The exact same conditions apply to Racing but they send a strong team to London Irish and won.

Racing are in a totally different place, the club is in "crisis" and whatever match they had to play this WE, even against the Outer Mongalian representative XV, they needed a win. Reason being they need to finish Top6 in the Top14.
A totally different mindset & objective to CO.

4PP

Benny Cake wrote: »

It also affects the balance of the group, they basically gave up 4 trys today which could have affected final placings had Northampton been in contention...

Very true but not CO's fault. No doubt you've heard many times "you can only play whats in front of you"?

That applies to Castres. They play in a professionnel league with its good & bad points & its different priorities. The duty of the staff first and foremost is to do well in that league.

There is nothing wrong with the point you make, but it should be addressed to the LNR/FFR and even the ERC, not Castres Olympique.

iroced

Benny Cake wrote: »

It also affects the balance of the group, they basically gave up 4 trys today which could have affected final placings had Northampton been in contention...

C'est la vie . No team ever cared about the balance of any group. Do Irish teams care about the balance of the Celtic League ?

GerM

I have no issue with clubs sending out weakened sides to protect their players. The T14 is the bread and butter and I expect them to treat it as their priority. I take issue with teams going out onto the field and not bothering once out there. Teams shouldn't go out in any game and just not make an effort. They're on the field and there's nothing to be lost by actually trying. 45-0 for a club with Castres' ability is embarrassing. Once they're on the pitch they can sustain an injury whether making an effort or not. Send over the youth team and let them play their hearts out rather than what happened today. It makes a mockery of the competition.

33 points conceded in the last 18 minutes. They simply stopped playing.

thomond2006

You'd think the fringe players that Castres did send would try their damnest to put their hand up for first team selection in the Top14!

GerM

iroced wrote: »

C'est la vie . No team ever cared about the balance of any group. Do Irish teams care about the balance of the Celtic League ?

You can bet that the players who take the field in those weakened sides give it their all and want to perform. Leinster have sent out seriously weakened sides in the past. A notable one was the season before last when a side that was practically an academy side went to Glasgow at the end of the season. All of them gave it their all out and denied Glasgow a winning bonus point. They lost by about 25 points but gave it everything they had against a team filled with Scottish internationals. I don't see why the T14 sides who prioritise their domestic league can't do the same. If players went out in a game and didn't bother on the field and gave up I wouldn't want them in the jersey again.

4PP

GerM, Thomond2006.

I can see exactly what you are saying & from a "celtic" even english perspective it makes perfect sense.

It does not however take into a/c the french mindset, notably the home/away phycosis (is that a word? you know what I mean anyway:D)

Albeit at the highest or lowest level of French rugby its a matter of pride to win at home & they expect to lose away. It is being gradually eroded but 100 year old "habitudes" don't change that easily.

These European matches are a bit of a pain for all bar the top budget clubs. Don't even mention the Mickey Mouse Amlin :rolleyes:.

As an Irishman I agree with what you say,, it even annoys me now & again as it can muck up the comp for my first love, the Irish teams.
That said, after a fair while over here I can empathise with the French.

They do what they have to do. We might not like it but we can't blame the clubs for it.

As I said before, they are dealing with whats in front of them.

4PP

GerM wrote: »

You can bet that the players who take the field in those weakened sides give it their all and want to perform. Leinster have sent out seriously weakened sides in the past. A notable one was the season before last when a side that was practically an academy side went to Glasgow at the end of the season. All of them gave it their all out and denied Glasgow a winning bonus point. They lost by about 25 points but gave it everything they had against a team filled with Scottish internationals. I don't see why the T14 sides who prioritise their domestic league can't do the same. If players went out in a game and didn't bother on the field and gave up I wouldn't want them in the jersey again.

Dat, would be a "cultural" matter

You are applying your values to another culture.

4PP

GerM wrote: »

33 points conceded in the last 18 minutes. They simply stopped playing.

Awfull I agree :mad:, I mean what sort of team does that? :rolleyes:

Look at Leinster, they ONLY conceded 21 points in the last 18 minutes!!

CO could have made an effort

Don't answer, I'm just having a laugh

irishbucsfan

French mentality is no different. Perpignan, Biarritz, Toulouse, Clermont have all been excellent H Cup teams at different points over the past 10 years. Castres are doing well in France but they don't have the depth to compete in two competitions, neither do Montpellier. They're not able to focus on the H Cup even if they wanted to, it's no fault of theirs that they play in a nation where the cost of being competitive is far higher than it is in any other H Cup nation.

GerM

It goes further than just squad depth or finances I think. 4PP makes a good point I reckon when he speaks of a differing attitude to away games. Perpignan, a supposedly strong HEC side traditionally and with money, have a horrendous record on the road too. The only sides they have beaten on the road in the last 5 years are Treviso (who they also lost to) and the Dragons. Biarritz aren't totally dissimilar; they lost to Aironi last season and it if wasn't for weak groups most seasons they would have a lot more in the loss column I suspect. Clermont have lost both their away games this season and are a totally different side at home. Toulouse seem to be the only side that win regularly on the road.

I think it could well be a case of win at home and anything else is a bonus. It adds up considering a lot of French sides are totally different animals at home.

GerM

Well, with the groups shaping up and the winners of several becoming clear it's now possible to start identifying how the knock outs will potentially shape up. Without getting too in depth it currently looks to me like Leinster will finish as top seeds after today and host one out of Cardiff, Edinburgh, Ulster or Leicester I reckon. Cardiff/Edinburgh could end up with a home QF or a horrible away game. Everything to play for in that pool and impossible to call but Cardiff are the best bet to come through it.

Munster is an interesting one. If they win in England they will probably be second seeds (Leinster tries scored will put them first if level on points) and hosting another best runner up which might be Harlequins or Toulouse. If they lose in England it's totally open and bonus points will play a big role.

Ulster's only hope now is a best runner up spot I think and, if they get it, I think they'll be coming to Dublin.

.ak

GerM wrote: »

Munster is an interesting one. If they win in England they will probably be second seeds (Leinster tries scored will put them first if level on points) and hosting another best runner up which might be Harlequins or Toulouse. If they lose in England it's totally open and bonus points will play a big role.

Interesting... You'd think Quins would fancy their chances coming back to Thomond and pulling the double on them, and obviously Munster would rather playing Quins than Thomond... Hrrmmm.. T'would be a cracker anyway.

errlloyd

Does the ERC offer any sort of prize money for reaching the quarters? Like is there any incentive for a French team that knows it probably won't win the Heineken cup to try and do well in the HCup?

Do French fans not find it embarrassing to lose? Like I understand the team and management not giving a crap, but are there not a bunch of Castre's fans who are completely devastated their team are so embarrassing?

Also who got the red card in the Quins match and what for?

tolosenc

OK, after 4 games, here is the order of the top 2 in each group:

1. Leinster - 16 points; 13 tries; +55
2. Munster - 16 points; 7 tries; +14
3. Ulster - 14 points; 12 tries; +41
4. Saracens - 14 points; 10 tries; +28
5. Edinburgh - 13 points; 10 tries; -8
6. Toulouse - 13 points; 9 tries; +34
7. Cardiff - 13 points; 5 tries; +22
8. Harlequins - 12 points; 8 tries; +23

A5. Biarritz - 12 points; 12 tries; +11
A6. Leicester - 12 points; 8 tries; +13
A7. Scarlets - 11 points; 9 tries; +4

2nd place, but eliminated: Glasgow - 10 points; 5 tries; -15

Leinster and Munster are the only 2 undefeated sides remaining in the tournament, Leinster having draw 1 and won 3, and Munster having won all 4. Leinster will secure a quarter final spot by avoiding defeat in Glasgow in the next round. Munster will secure their place in the quarters if they earn at least as many table points from their match against Castres as the Scarlets do at home to Northampton (ie win + try bonus guarantees it). No other quarter finalists can be determined until round 6, as far as I can tell.

Leinster, Clermont and Northampton are the tp try scoring teams after 4 matches, with 13 tries each.

Leinster, with 124 points, are the highest scoring team so far. Their +55 points difference and +7 try difference are also the highest in the tournament to date (Biarritz are also +7 on try difference).

Jonathan Sexypants and Dan Biggar are tied on 60 points as the leading points scorers. Today's 2 try man Mike Brown is now leading try scorer with 4.

copacetic

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the ERC offer any sort of prize money for reaching the quarters? Like is there any incentive for a French team that knows it probably won't win the Heineken cup to try and do well in the HCup?

Do French fans not find it embarrassing to lose? Like I understand the team and management not giving a crap, but are there not a bunch of Castre's fans who are completely devastated their team are so embarrassing?

Also who got the red card in the Quins match and what for?

Someone got the red from the bench for interfering with the ball retrieval for a lineout with a couple of minutes left. They put the red card graphic up which was silly as Quins still had 15 on the pitch.

CIARAN_BOYLE

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the ERC offer any sort of prize money for reaching the quarters? Like is there any incentive for a French team that knows it probably won't win the Heineken cup to try and do well in the HCup?

Match day revenue - match day expenses is split between the home and away teams. 50/50 if the game is in the home teams normal ground (in which it has played at least 2 of the pool games) or 65/35 in favour of the home team if they move (ie Leinster to the Aviva).

There is also a greater share in the TV pot for progression.

danthefan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Match day revenue - match day expenses is split between the home and away teams. 50/50 if the game is in the home teams normal ground (in which it has played at least 2 of the pool games) or 65/35 in favour of the home team if they move (ie Leinster to the Aviva).

There is also a greater share in the TV pot for progression.

I don't think the money goes to 65/35 just for moving, it's if the game is in a stadium of over X capacity. I think Munster for example would get 65/35 for playing a QF in Thomond.

jacothelad

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the ERC offer any sort of prize money for reaching the quarters? Like is there any incentive for a French team that knows it probably won't win the Heineken cup to try and do well in the HCup?

Do French fans not find it embarrassing to lose? Like I understand the team and management not giving a crap, but are there not a bunch of Castre's fans who are completely devastated their team are so embarrassing?

Also who got the red card in the Quins match and what for?

Ulster earned about 500,000 Euro last year. - prize money goes to the IRFU here of course.

Will Skinner.

profitius

Am I right in thinking the French wanted a bigger HEC representation? No problem with them sending out weakened teams but having more French teams in the HEC would harm the competition.

Zzippy

profitius wrote: »

Am I right in thinking the French wanted a bigger HEC representation? No problem with them sending out weakened teams but having more French teams in the HEC would harm the competition.

No problem with more French teams as long as we get more Irish teams in!

justsomebloke

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

Fireball07

justsomebloke wrote: »

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

I actually think that Munster will win their last 2 games due to the disinterest of Castres and Northampton. If Castres play like they did against NH, then Munster could get a bonus point that day. I definitely can't see them only getting 4 more points, even if they lose I'd expect a losing bonus.

I'm not sure about the Clermont-Ulster-Leicester group, it's hard to predict how many points each will get. The rest seems reasonable enough.

copacetic

justsomebloke wrote: »

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

Ouch, think that's a bit rough on Ulster and Munster myself. Personally think that Munster will get the home 1/4 and that Ulster will go through.

As always though it's looking like 7th/8th will be two of the best sides left. I reckon Ulster will hold on in their group and Clermont will come in as best loser.

justsomebloke

copacetic wrote: »

Personally think that Munster will get the home 1/4 and that Ulster will go through.

I may be wrong on Munster but I think Ulsters best chance is for a runners up spot. If they can beat Leicester next week they will probably going into the last game on 18 points to clermount's 17 points and I can't see clemount losing that one, this should leave Ulster touch and go to get through

totallegend

justsomebloke wrote: »

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

I can't see Munster not getting a full haul against Castres and I'd back them to win against Northampton too, which would leave them on 25 too, Leinster will be top with more tries scored. I'd back Clermont to get two bonus point wins against Aironi and Ulster, Ulster to win against Leicester but come away empty handed from Clermont.

1. Leinster 25
2. Munster 25
3. Toulouse 22
4. Saracens 22
5. Clermont 21
6. Cardiff 21
7. Quins 21
8. Ulster 18

But if the Scarlets can win at home against Northampton and go to Castres on the last day looking for a win, they could end up on 19 or 20, and Ulster are screwed.

lologram

totallegend wrote: »

1. Leinster 25
2. Munster 25
3. Toulouse 22
4. Saracens 22
5. Clermont 21
6. Cardiff 21
7. Quins 21
8. Ulster 18

But if the Scarlets can win at home against Northampton and go to Castres on the last day looking for a win, they could end up on 19 or 20, and Ulster are screwed.

I'd have similar except Edinburgh are away to Racing Metro (Edinburgh win) and then at home to London Irish. I'd say Edinburgh are looking at 21 points, runner up to Cardiff because they lose on tiebreakers, and then between them and Quins for 7/8 based on tries scored. Ulster out then.

copacetic

justsomebloke wrote: »

I may be wrong on Munster but I think Ulsters best chance is for a runners up spot. If they can beat Leicester next week they will probably going into the last game on 18 points to clermount's 17 points and I can't see clemount losing that one, this should leave Ulster touch and go to get through

True enough, I guess Ulster doing better than expected so far may have me too hopeful for them.

molloyjh

justsomebloke wrote: »

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

I'd agree that's harsh on Munster. I expect them to pick up 5 points against Castres and a losing bonus against NH (I expect NH will be up for that game). I also reckon Sarries will get the bonus in one of their last 2 and Cardiff will have a job on their hands with LI. I expect:

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Sarries 23 points
3. Toulouse 22 points
4. Ulster 22 points (although I can't help but feel that Leicester might get a result in Ravenhill. I hope not though.)
5. Munster 22 points
6. Edinburgh 21 points
7. Quinns 21 points
8. Clermont 20 points

That would mean another home draw against Clermont. I'd love that myself!

justsomebloke

molloyjh wrote: »

4. Ulster 22 points
8. Clermont 20 points

This can't happen though as they both can't win the final game against each other

4PP

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the ERC offer any sort of prize money for reaching the quarters? Like is there any incentive for a French team that knows it probably won't win the Heineken cup to try and do well in the HCup?

Do French fans not find it embarrassing to lose? Like I understand the team and management not giving a crap, but are there not a bunch of Castre's fans who are completely devastated their team are so embarrassing?

Also who got the red card in the Quins match and what for?

I don't think any one individual can be accused of "not giving a crap". They are just under different sort of pressure to survive in their home league.
For sure they don't like to see their team shiping 40/50 points but that dissapointment is nothing compared to the meltdown of "the drop" & is vastly outweighed by a good 'perf in the league & the chance of a place in the playoffs for the Bouclier.
They all aim for a top6 place not because it garauntees H-Cup the following season. Thats just a nice little "plus" with cash attached. No the motivation for the Top 6 is the chance of lifting that famous bit of wood.

The motivation or lack of it also depends on the clubs situation vis a vis other sports in their cachement area. CO are big fish in a very small pond in their immediate area whereas Monty have to compete with a very successfull soccer team & also a handball team.
(There are more people playing handball in France than Rugby, the French ladies side finished second in the World championships on Sunday & the men have won the title at least once).
So you get Monty maybe not putting out their very best team but doing enough to generate interest in the town and boost their season ticket holders & sponsors. They also gave a 2 for 1 deal to the STH for the Leinster game thus creating greater awareness.

danthefan

copacetic wrote: »

True enough, I guess Ulster doing better than expected so far may have me too hopeful for them.

I don't think they are doing better than expected so far. They've got 10 points out of Aironi which is expected, and 4 points out of Clermont (h) and Leicester (a), which is alright. Whoever had the back to back against Aironi was always going to be leading the pool at this stage.

phog

justsomebloke wrote: »

so with 4 games gone and the christmas brake upon us it's predictions time

so currently my 8 quarter finalists are

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Toulouse 22 points
3. Saracens 22 points
4. Leicester 21 points
5. Cardiff 21 points
6. Munster 20 points
7. Harlequins 21 points
8. Clermount/Edinburgh 20 points

If Munster don't make a home QF I'd take the away Q/F to Saracens that you predict, would prefer it to Leinster or Toulouse anyway.

4PP

profitius wrote: »

Am I right in thinking the French wanted a bigger HEC representation? No problem with them sending out weakened teams but having more French teams in the HEC would harm the competition.

Yes, it comes up every year & will come up again even stronger next spring.

As to it harming the competition well that depends on your point of view .

Back in the early days when the French had turned the professionel corner better than most, notably the celtic nations it didn't bother them one little bit. Now that we have caught up , or even surpassed them they are not happy. They feel as they have the strongest league, generate the biggest sponsorship & TV rights (their words, not mine;)) they should have bigger representation. They have also included the english as due a bigger share.

They are also very aggrieved that the CL is little more than a training ground which they feel is an unfair adv.
Having had this debate with more than one frenchman my position has always been that its up to them to get their house in order.

They accept this but always reply that french rugby can survive without europe, not so sure about Ireland.

An equally valid point

molloyjh

justsomebloke wrote: »

This can't happen though as they both can't win the final game against each other

D'oh. I know how to read, I swears I does.

Ok so, in light of the obvious...

1. Leinster 25 points
2. Sarries 23 points
3. Toulouse 22 points
4. Munster 22 points
5. Edinburgh 21 points
6. Quinns 21 points
7. Clermont 20 points
8. Ulster 19 points

Which would mean:

Leinster - Ulster (Leinster to win)
Sarries - Clermont (Clermont to win)
Toulouse - Quinns (Toulouse to win - can't see Quinns doing it twice)
Munster - Edinburgh (Munster to win)

Some really mouth-watering games in the semis and the final if that's the case! Does that mean Clermont would travel to Dublin and Munster to Toulouse?

phog

molloyjh wrote: »

Some really mouth-watering games in the semis and the final if that's the case! Does that mean Clermont would travel to Dublin and Munster to Toulouse?

No, the S/Fs are drawn in adavnce of the results of the QFs