Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

GerM

danthefan wrote: »

Very witty alright but Davies is brilliant at getting over the gainline.

You're totally right and my comment was a bit tongue in cheek but I do think as a unit they're very overrated. Davies is very good but I think he's a little one dimensional. Picks decent lines and is very powerful but someone like George North will always need to come infield to be most potent as those inside him simply aren't able to provide enough clean ball to him. That break away from inside their own 22 could have resulted in a try if those inside him had drawn the defence a bit better. The plan seemed to be get the ball to North as quick as possible.

.ak

danthefan wrote: »

Very witty alright but Davies is brilliant at getting over the gainline.

Yeah I think Davies is great at that, truly class at breaking the gain line, but there's more to it I'm afraid. He plays like a backrow sometimes... But his awareness for players around him can be very poor.

thomond2006

That's a disgrace by Aironi, conceding 82 points at home. Surely heads will roll for that, a lot of money was needed to start that team.

irishbucsfan

As wasteful as they were, I think Scarlets should have had about 15 penalties for breakdown infringements in the Northampton 22 in the last 10 minutes that were completely ignored. The advantages those penalties would have given might have been the difference.

Will agree to disagree. Priestland can be excellent but is inconsistent. Davies is very good but lacks creativity. Williams is solid. North is very good but doesn't see enough ball. Lamont is mediocre. Liam Williams is a Pro12 player at best. Iongi is average enough. Their midfield lacks creativity.

I think you're underrating the two Williams'. Both are good players, Liam Williams is improving all the time, turning into a great 15. Apart from that I agree with you, and that would be exactly why I think they have a great back line! They just need a 9 who isn't a complete fool.

And Davies isn't a creative player, that's not his style, he's a ruthlessly brilliant ball carrier with devastating pace as he showed during the world cup. He does have the ability to move the ball when necessary though.

If Scarlets even had Connacht's pack they'd be winning games like this. Unfortunately they don't and it means not only are they being shown up in the tight, but their backs aren't able to do their own jobs.


And a try-scoring rate really has no bearing on the quality of a back line btw, that's a silly stat to bring up. Leinster scored 2nd fewest tries in the Magners in 2010... I suppose they were the 2nd worst back line?

lologram

GerM wrote: »

Good result for Ulster too.

I'm open to correction but it looks like if Cardiff, Glasgow and Biarritz lose this weekend, Ulster are already through as a best runner-up.

If, hypothetically, Cardiff got an LBP today and a BP win next week and Ulster got nothing, they'd both be on 19 points but Ulster have better tries for so far (16) to Cardiff's 5.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And a try-scoring rate really has no bearing on the quality of a back line btw, that's a silly stat to bring up. Leinster scored 2nd fewest tries in the Magners in 2010... I suppose they were the 2nd worst back line?

Not really if you look into it. They threw in the towel with about several games left as they were a street ahead in the table (which nearly came back to bite them). You can see that where they scored about 5 tries in 5 games after the 6N. They also focussed on a forwards game a lot. In the HEC, they scored more tries in the pool stages than anyone aside from the sides in Viadana's group.

Scarlets, this season, are clearly trying to play a fast, backs game but they're not breaking down teams. They spent about 8 minutes camped on the opposition line and could not create anything. They have talented players but aren't a really dangerous unit.

durkadurka

lologram wrote: »

I'm open to correction but it looks like if Cardiff, Glasgow and Biarritz lose this weekend, Ulster are already through as a best runner-up.

If, hypothetically, Cardiff got an LBP today and a BP win next week and Ulster got nothing, they'd both be on 19 points but Ulster have better tries for so far (16) to Cardiff's 5.

This realisation was slowly dawning on my hungover mind. So the cardiff game is the real key one . Ulster really deserve tO go through. There is a distinct possibility that all three irish provinces could get through in round 5.

cgpg5

9-6 to Irish at half-time, hopefully it stays that way!

GerM

So, looking at the pools now it's beginning to look like 22 points will be required for a home QF. Leinster, Toulouse and Saracens should achieve that. Munster will top their group but the match in Milton Keynes will be massive. Edinburgh are primed to finish on 21 points but have a fair few tries scored. I don't think Clermont will get the home BP against Ulster so I can see them getting an away QF. There's an outside chance Glos will beat Toulouse in England though and change everything.

lologram

durkadurka wrote: »

This realisation was slowly dawning on my hungover mind. So the cardiff game is the real key one . Ulster really deserve tO go through. There is a distinct possibility that all three irish provinces could get through in round 5.

Yeah there is, although for it to be a sure thing we'd need for Cardiff not to get a bonus point today. 9-6 at HT to London Irish.

If it's a low-scoring game you'd always have to fancy Halfpenny's ability to keep them within 7, let alone winning it though.

durkadurka

The Bp is irrelevant though. Didn't someone say their try count was vastly inferior to ulster?

lologram

durkadurka wrote: »

The Bp is irrelevant though. Didn't someone say their try count was vastly inferior to ulster?

I did I was just talking in terms of qualification by end of Round 5 for BP relevance. It's splitting hairs really, officially qualifying vs astronomical odds of losing out. It'd be impressive to say they'd qualified so soon but it doesn't matter a bit when, so long as they do.

ray jay

London Irish 12 - 13 Cardiff Blues

C'mon LI!

lologram

LI 15 Cardiff 22 at full time. Not a good result for Ulster with both Edinburgh and Cardiff at home next week.

overshoot

blues 22-15 ft.
was just looking at the erc club rankings. ulster will pick up minumum 2 pts, which should see them go up 2 places at least given what london irish, and bath will drop. id say that will see them as second seeds next year and make things a bit easier (i think they were the highest third this year). perpignon and wasps will also fall behind if they dont get out of their amlin groups.
(if they make it out of the group 4pts)
muster will still be guaranteed first seeds next year but they could use a good run as their last h cup win wont count next year

GerM

Sh*te day for Irish rugby. Munster will have to win in England to get a home QF. Ulster's home QF hopes took a massive blow today. One would have to expect Quins to beat Glos at home and Connacht to reach 20 points and Toulouse to win in Glos to finish on 22.

cgpg5

Pity but Cardiff were always likely to win, they should now qualify along with Edinburgh. It will be sickening if a team like Edinburgh gets in ahead of Ulster.

Hate saying it but its not looking great for Ulster, they'll most likely have to win next weekend in France.

PTH2009

Munster to beat Cardiff Blues in the Quarter

Munster to beat Leinster in the semi (revenge for 2009)

Munster to beat Harlaquins in the final

Munster can improve on the mistakes they made in the past few games

Morf

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And Davies isn't a creative player, that's not his style, he's a ruthlessly brilliant ball carrier with devastating pace as he showed during the world cup.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. He carries in midfield into contact well but always looks ponderous, slightly clueless and not hugely quick in open field.

lologram

PTH2009 wrote: »

Munster to beat Cardiff Blues in the Quarter

Munster to beat Leinster in the semi (revenge for 2009)

Munster to beat Harlaquins in the final

Munster can improve on the mistakes they made in the past few games

CiaranMT

Morf wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. He carries in midfield into contact well but always looks ponderous, slightly clueless and not hugely quick in open field.

Aye, if he had pace he'd be absolutely lethal. Strong as an ox.

leonard7

clermont got a cheeky 12 tries today...fair enough it was Aironi but 12 tries in any professional games nowadays is almost unheard of

greendom

leonard7 wrote: »

clermont got a cheeky 12 tries today...fair enough it was Aironi but 12 tries in any professional games nowadays is almost unheard of

Stunning performance - hopefully they can go on and make at least the semis this time round.

overshoot

greendom wrote: »

Stunning performance - hopefully they can go on and make at least the semis this time round.

from a personal point of view, i hope they dont make it out of the group:pac:

GerM

Clermont will probably wind up with an away QF. If they get a home draw, they could well be in Twickenham. I don't think they've lost in Clermont since early 2009.

justsomebloke

overshoot wrote: »

from a personal point of view, i hope they dont make it out of the group:pac:

From a personal point of view I would hate to face them in the knock outs

leonard7

right let me see if this is right 2 teams qualify as runners up.... there are 6 pools. from the other 5 pools only one 2nd team can have more points than ulster. it wont happen in pool 1. if gloucester win today that rules out pool 6. if leinster win thats pool 3 out and if sarries beat biarritz tomorrow pool 5 is ruled out...sadly i dont think quins will lose...but someone can dream come on gloucester

leonard7

correct me if i'm wrong please

durkadurka

Yes a Gloucester win would be massive for ulster.

Tox56

Harlequins play beautiful rugby. How I would love Conor O'Shea try that with Ireland with the players we have.

[Jackass]

Uggggh, ERC website crashes every game night

Can't decide who I want to win Quins v Glaws and need to see the state of play!

I suppose Glaws for Ulsters sake?

Would like to see updated groups though.

durkadurka

[Jackass] wrote: »

Uggggh, ERC website crashes every game night

Can't decide who I want to win Quins v Glaws and need to see the state of play!

I suppose Glaws for Ulsters sake?

Would like to see updated groups though.

Bbc has up to date groups

the_doctor199

[Jackass] wrote: »

Would like to see updated groups though.

BBC have the updated groups Link

Edit: Just seen while I was away getting the link it's been posted above!

GerM

Evans taking up where he left off against Sarries. He's having a mare. 1/4 and Gloucester have every chance of a big upset. If Glos win this, Ulster are through unless Biarritz can win in Saracens.

durkadurka

GerM wrote: »

Evans taking up where he left off against Sarries. He's having a mare. 1/4 and Gloucester have every chance of a big upset. If Glos win this, Ulster are through unless Biarritz can win in Saracens.

Leinster need to beat Glasgow too.

justsomebloke

durkadurka wrote: »

Bbc has up to date groups

the_doctor199 wrote: »

BBC have the updated groups Link

Edit: Just seen while I was away getting the link it's been posted above!

It doesn't have the toulouse result included yet

Sindri

Can someone please explain the permutations to me if it's not too much trouble?

durkadurka

If gloucester Leinster and Saracens win, ulster will qualify as the second 'lucky loser' at least.

ironingbored

Gloucester playing some excellent stuff and looking very dangerous.

Am I the only one who think Quins are over-rated?

totallegend

Sindri wrote: »

Can someone please explain the permutations to me if it's not too much trouble?

If Quins lose tonight or next week in Connacht, OR either Cardiff or Edinburgh lose next week, then Ulster go through.

That assumes Glasgow don't get two bonus point wins.

Ulster could win their group by losing with a bonus, depending on the margin of clermont's win. If they win in France, they could get a home qf.

Sindri

^^^Thanks. Most of that is lost on me.

I'm just happy Ulster have a chance of qualifying.

DeDoc

Sindri wrote: »

Can someone please explain the permutations to me if it's not too much trouble?

The teams who can qualify, and the possibilities are:

Group, Team, Current Points, Current Tries, Possible finishing positions in group, Possible points
1, Munster, 20, 9, 1, 20/21/22/24/25
2, Embra, 17, 13, 1/2, 17/18/19/21/22
2, Cardiff, 17, 6, 1/2, 17/18/19/21/22
3, Leinster 16, 13, 1/2, 16-26
3, Glasgow, 10, 5, 1-4, 10-20
4, Ulster, 19, 16, 1-2, 19,20,21,23,24
4, Clermont, 16, 25, 1-3, 16,17,18,20,21
5, Saracens, 17, 10, 1-3, 14-24
5, Ospreys, 13, 12, 1-3, 13,14,15,17,18
5, Biarritz, 12, 12, 1-3, 12-22
6, Toulouse, 18, 13, 1-3, 18,19,20,22,23
6, Quins, 8, 12, 1-3, 12-22
6, Gloucester, 9, 5, 1-3, 9-19

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Sindri wrote: »

Can someone please explain the permutations to me if it's not too much trouble?

If Quins lose tonight or next week in Connacht, OR either Cardiff or Edinburgh lose next week, then Ulster go through.

That assumes Glasgow don't get two bonus point wins.

Ulster could win their group by losing with a bonus, depending on the margin of clermont's win. If they win in France, they could get a home qf.

Forgot about Biarritz, but I can't see them coming into the equation.

Looks like Quins are going to get a win here anyway.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Forgot about Biarritz, but I can't see them coming into the equation.

Looks like Quins are going to get a win here anyway.

Maybe not!

Podge_irl

That was an odd decision to go for the scrum...

A-Train

Quins lucky for their try there, shambles of scrums a few mins earlier they should have took the 3 points that were on offer!

[Jackass]

Some finish on here!!!

CiaranMT

ironingbored wrote: »

Gloucester playing some excellent stuff and looking very dangerous.

Am I the only one who think Quins are over-rated?

I'm with you on that one.

DeDoc

Sindri wrote: »

Can someone please explain the permutations to me if it's not too much trouble?

The teams who can qualify, and the possibilities are:

Group, Team, Current Points, Current Tries, Possible finishing positions in group, Possible points
1, Munster, 20, 9, 1, 20/21/22/24/25
2, Embra, 17, 13, 1/2, 17/18/19/21/22
2, Cardiff, 17, 6, 1/2, 17/18/19/21/22
3, Leinster 16, 13, 1/2, 16-26
3, Glasgow, 10, 5, 1-4, 10-20
3, Montpellier, 10, 8, 2-4, 10,11,12,14,15
4, Ulster, 19, 16, 1-2, 19,20,21,23,24
4, Clermont, 16, 25, 1-3, 16,17,18,20,21
5, Saracens, 17, 10, 1-3, 14-24
5, Ospreys, 13, 12, 1-3, 13,14,15,17,18
5, Biarritz, 12, 12, 1-3, 12-22
6, Toulouse, 18, 13, 1-3, 18,19,20,22,23
6, Quins, 8, 12, 1-3, 12-22
6, Gloucester, 9, 5, 1-3, 9-19

thomond2006

Try Quins. Bad news for Ulster.