Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

CatFromHue

One thing I've seen a few times in this game is that guys are catching kicks while their leg is in transit across the touchline and their team is still getting the line out. It was my understanding that your foot had to be fixed in place "in touch" for your team to win the lineout, otherwise it was to deemed you brought in touch.

thomond2006

Big kick there from Farrell, 17-13 now.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

One thing I've seen a few times in this game is that guys are catching kicks while their leg is in transit across the touchline and their team is still getting the line out. It was my understanding that your foot had to be fixed in place "in touch" for your team to win the lineout, otherwise it was to deemed you brought in touch.

That actually depends on whether your standing leg is in play. But in the case of Alex Goode it was, so therefore it should've been a Biarritz throw.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

One thing I've seen a few times in this game is that guys are catching kicks while their leg is in transit across the touchline and their team is still getting the line out. It was my understanding that your foot had to be fixed in place "in touch" for your team to win the lineout, otherwise it was to deemed you brought in touch.

You're right I think. Just AR's call them as they see them

thomond2006

Idiotic from Smit.

Penalty for Biarritz: 17-16 with 11 to go.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Ulster go out because of bloody predictable Peter Stringer I'll go mad!

Absolutely. Need sarries to cling on here, or Biarritz to win and deny Saracens a losing BP

thomond2006

Alex Goode is a classy player.

.ak

Some boot from Baby there.

thomond2006

Farrell penalty. 20-16, minute to go.

jacothelad

Phew!

totallegend

Great news for Ulster.

I don't think anyone will fear Saracens in the qfs either.

CiaranMT

Score?

cgpg5

totallegend wrote: »

Great news for Ulster.

I don't think anyone will fear Saracens in the qfs either.

Doesn't make much difference tbh they'll still prob have to win in Clermont sadly. It helps I suppose that Biarritz are gone.

Sarries will be dangerous yet, no-one will beat them easily. There will be worse teams than them in the quarters.

iwasonbwh

CiaranMT wrote: »

Score?

20-16 to Sarries

cgpg5

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saracens will have a home QF against Cardiff/Edinburgh imo (more probably Cardiff). They should win that.

Toulouse will probably have a home QF against Clermont.

Munster will probably have a home QF against Edinburgh/Cardiff (more probably Edinburgh)

Leinster will then be left with the final qualifier, Ulster/Harlequins depending on whether Ulster get within 5 points against Clermont or failing that get the losing bonus against Clermont or failing that whether Connacht can beat Quins. Quins getting a try bonus point against Connacht would mean a definite Leinster/Quins QF.

All assuming Munster beat Northampton. Correct me if I'm wrong.


(If Ulster somehow manage to beat Clermont and Munster beat Northampton, it'll be the three Irish sides as the top 3 seeds!)

Wouldn't assume this at all. Munster will do very well to beat N'hampton I feel.

This is how I feel it'll go.

1 Leinster v Quins 8
2 Saracens v Edinburgh 7
3 Toulouse v Clermont 6
4 Cardiff v Munster 5

DeDoc

I think it'll be:

Leinster - Ulster
Sarries - Embra
Toulouse - Munster
Clermont - Cardiff

.ak

The Ulster vs Clermont game is going to be a cracker I feel. Ulster will have to be at their very best for that. Even if they play like they did against Leicester I can't see Clermont breaking apart like Leicester did. And with this weekends results it's essentially do or die for Ulster, which will give the match a test-edge to it. That's next saturday at 4 or 6 isn't it?


Also, when does the draw for the semi's take place?

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Also, when does the draw for the semi's take place?

Next weekend I believe, most important 5 minutes of the season.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Next weekend I believe, most important 5 minutes of the season.

Absolutely. I can't believe it's just pot luck, it's so hugely important.

the_doctor199

.ak wrote: »

That's next saturday at 4 or 6 isn't it?

Saturday @ 3.40 iirc.

Snickers Man

Ulster could still win their group, even if they lose the last game.

They might still need a bit of help from Connacht if they finish second.

If Connacht can prevent Harlequins earning a bonus point then Harlequins, even if they win in Galway, will end up with 20 points. This will leave them second in their group, assuming that Toulouse will win away to Gloucester, which is a pretty big assumption actually.

But let's say Toulouse beat Gloucester and that Harlequins win in Galway. How many times have Connacht's opponents earned a try bonus in this competition?

Only once. And that was last weekend in Toulouse. I think Connacht might be doughty enough, playing at home, to restrict Harlequins to less than four tries.

In which case, Ulster have an excellent chance of qualification.

If they score an equal number of tries to Clermont next week AND lose by less than four points, Ulster will win their group.

If they lose by four to seven points, regardless of try difference with respect to Clermont, they will end up on 20 points. If Harlequins beat Connacht without getting a bonus point in Connact, then Ulster will outrank Harlequins in terms of the best two second place teams by virtue of having scored more tries than them (currently 16 as opposed to 11)


So Ulster still have everything to play for. Feck it, they could even win in Clermont but a more likely defeat may not be the end of the world. And wouldn't it be great if Connacht actually won a game in Galway?

Here's dreaming!

durkadurka

The conn game is Friday night so ulster will likely know if a Bp will suffice. If they done get it then its an agonizing wait till Sunday to see if embra or Cardiff slip up.

CiaranMT

durkadurka wrote: »

The conn game is Friday night so ulster will likely know if a Bp will suffice. If they done get it then its an agonizing wait till Sunday to see if embra or Cardiff slip up.

TBH I see Connacht going for a win, so if they don't manage it they'll be close to Quins. Can't see Quins getting five points.

My money would be on Edinburgh, LI would put up more resistance than Racing will for Cardiff at this stage.

cgpg5

CiaranMT wrote: »

TBH I see Connacht going for a win, so if they don't manage it they'll be close to Quins. Can't see Quins getting five points.

My money would be on Edinburgh, LI would put up more resistance than Racing will for Cardiff at this stage.

As opposed to what, a loss or draw?

Ha, I'm only messing I see where you're coming from its the last game of their HC campaign and they are going all out for a win and to do it for the supporters aswell. They will be in Quins faces all game and they will ensure that they get nothing easy throughout. However Quins will be confident of getting a BP- Toulouse made their tries look very easy at the weekend. I sadly see Quins sneaking the BP.

Morf

The Sky round-up programme is terrible. One try from the Clermont game. Why would I tune in to see highlights of the games that Sky have already shown in full this weekend?

Quint2010

Did my eyes just deceive me or did I just see that Sky are only showing Claremont Ulster game on the red button next saturday and are showing the meaningless Leicester Aironi game as their main game? A joke.

CatFromHue

Quint2010 wrote: »

Did my eyes just deceive me or did I just see that Sky are only showing Claremont Ulster game on the red button next saturday and are showing the meaningless Leicester Aironi game as their main game? A joke.

It says the Leciester Aironi game is on their TV listings for next week as well but after the panel themselves said the Clermont Ulster game is the game of the weekend I'd imagine they'll have to change this.

Similar to the way Munster London Irish would have been the main game at its time slot last season but was changed to be on the red button after Munster were knocked out.

I think and hope anyway!

GerM

So, looking at next week and how things are currently stacking up, I predict:

QF1: (1) Leinster vs (8) Harlequins
QF2: (2) Saracens vs (7) Cardiff
QF3: (3) Edinburgh vs (6) Clermont
QF4: (4) Toulouse vs (5) Munster

Leinster 25
Saracens 23
Edinburgh 22
Toulouse 22
Munster 21
Clermont 20
Cardiff 21
Harlequins 20

Tox56

GerM wrote: »

So, looking at next week and how things are currently stacking up, I predict:

(1) Leinster vs (8) Harlequins
(2) Saracens vs (7) Cardiff
(3) Edinburgh vs (6) Clermont
(4) Toulouse vs (5) Munster

Leinster 25
Saracens 23
Edinburgh 22
Toulouse 22
Munster 21
Clermont 20
Cardiff 21
Harlequins 20

Would be some game for neutrals.

Digifriendly

CatFromHue wrote: »

It says the Leciester Aironi game is on their TV listings for next week as well but after the panel themselves said the Clermont Ulster game is the game of the weekend I'd imagine they'll have to change this.

Similar to the way Munster London Irish would have been the main game at its time slot last season but was changed to be on the red button after Munster were knocked out.

I think and hope anyway!

I maybe wrong here and my memory does deceive me at times but I'm almost certain Munster vs London Irish was the main game on Sky last season. I 'seem to remember' seeing it live and was surprised to do so but you may be right.

CatFromHue

Digifriendly wrote: »

I maybe wrong here and my memory does deceive me at times but I'm almost certain Munster vs London Irish was the main game on Sky last season. I 'seem to remember' seeing it live and was surprised to do so but you may be right.

I thought it was on the red button but can't be sure now! I don't remember any half time analysis which for games on the red button they don't do.

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

So, looking at next week and how things are currently stacking up, I predict:

QF1: (1) Leinster vs (8) Harlequins
QF2: (2) Saracens vs (7) Cardiff
QF3: (3) Edinburgh vs (6) Clermont
QF4: (4) Toulouse vs (5) Munster

Leinster 25
Saracens 23
Edinburgh 22
Toulouse 22
Munster 21
Clermont 20
Cardiff 21
Harlequins 20

I'd go along with most of that. Leaving aside the Ulster prayers for Quins/Edinburgh/Cardiff to f**k up, I will be hoping for Munster to beat Saints and hopefully drive Toulouse down into fifth position and send them on the road (although it would be against Edinburgh).

greendom

Tox56 wrote: »

Would be some game for neutrals.

Toulouse - Munster would be pretty mouth watering too.

CatFromHue

GerM wrote: »

So, looking at next week and how things are currently stacking up, I predict:

QF1: (1) Leinster vs (8) Harlequins
QF2: (2) Saracens vs (7) Cardiff
QF3: (3) Edinburgh vs (6) Clermont
QF4: (4) Toulouse vs (5) Munster

Leinster 25
Saracens 23
Edinburgh 22
Toulouse 22
Munster 21
Clermont 20
Cardiff 21
Harlequins 20

I think Ulster will get the bonus point (at least :eek: ) and so that would put out Quins out due to the try difference.

I don't think Munster will get the bonus away to Northampton. As they say "this time it's personal!!"

I do think Toulouse will get the try bonus at Gloucester.

So that makes
Leinster 25
Toulouse 23
Saracens 23
Edinburgh 22
Clermont 20
Munster 20
Cardiff 21
Ulster 20

Leinster v Ulster - Leinster
Toulouse v Cardiff - Toulouse
Saracens v Munster -
Edinburgh v Clermont - Edinburgh :eek:

(Clermont really don't travel well. They've only won 4 out of their last 12 away games over the past four years. They beat Aironi this season, Saracens in the last game of the pool when Saracens were out of both HEC and Amlin last season, Viadana the season before that, and Montauban the season before that!)

durkadurka

In fairness I think I'd fancy clermont in Edinburgh!

CatFromHue

durkadurka wrote: »

In fairness I think I'd fancy clermont in Edinburgh!

You should have a look at their away record in the HEC over the last few years, it's really appalling!

Anyway I think Edinburgh are going to Bradleyise them.

GerM

Tend to agree with CFH, Clermont are indestructible at home but are very vulnerable on the road. Saracens (who were already out), Aironi and Viadana are the only sides they've beaten on the road in the last few years. They tend to make a game of it more than other French sides but they still bring a different intensity to the away games. Edinburgh are totally concentrating on the HEC and could make things very difficult.

durkadurka

They seem to want this so I'd fancy them to break the pattern.

Fireball07

Basically Munster have to win....

Can't risk going away to Toulouse. Everyone seems to be writing Munster off for that game... but I have faith we can pull something out of the bag. Maybe

thomond2006

Edinburgh's defence is very weak, I would fancy Clermont to run in a few tries against them home or away. Edinburgh are easily the weakest of the potential qualifiers. Fair play to Bradley though, they were a mess last season.

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

Edinburgh's defence is very weak, I would fancy Clermont to run in a few tries against them home or away. Edinburgh are easily the weakest of the potential qualifiers. Fair play to Bradley though, they were a mess last season.

Yeah, a home quarter final would be a monumental achievement for Edinburgh. A glamour game against the likes of Clermont or even Munster might even attract people to actually turn up to a game in Murrayfield, which would be an even bigger achievement

I don't think we've really discussed how Munster's failure to score tries this year could end up costing them.
It will be academic if they win in Northampton, but they could very easily end up level with Edinburgh or Clermont on 21 and finish behind both on tries scored. To be five from five and only score nine tries is quite a statistic.

Gallee

I remember a huge thread on HC permutations last year (or year before) by Thomond - am I right? Just can't seem to find it.

razorblunt

I'll go along to Murrayfield next Sunday to give Bradley a bit of support I'd say. They do tend to get better crowds for the HEC games though. Still nowhere near even a quarter full I'd imagine.

CiaranMT

razorblunt wrote: »

I'll go along to Murrayfield next Sunday to give Bradley a bit of support I'd say. They do tend to get better crowds for the HEC games though. Still nowhere near even a quarter full I'd imagine.

Surely there's another stadium they can use, to build a better atmosphere? Must be awfully dull running out at Murrayfield when it's empty.

thomond2006

Gallee wrote: »

I remember a huge thread on HC permutations last year (or year before) by Thomond - am I right? Just can't seem to find it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69681378

SomeFool

CiaranMT wrote: »

Surely there's another stadium they can use, to build a better atmosphere? Must be awfully dull running out at Murrayfield when it's empty.

I'm fairly sure the SRU have insisted on Murrayfield being used. I'd agree tis an awful place when half empty.

justsomebloke

This weeks fixtures

Connacht v Harlequins, Pl6, 20:00
Gloucester v Toulouse, Pl6, 20:00
Bath v Glasgow, Pl3, 13:30
Leinster v Montpellier, Pl3, 13:30
Clermont Auvergne v Ulster, Pl4, 15:40
Leicester v Aironi, Pl4, 15:40
Castres v Scarlets, Pl1, 18:00
Northampton v Munster, Pl1, 18:00
Biarritz v Ospreys, Pl5, 13:00
Treviso v Saracens, Pl5, 13:00
Cardiff Blues v Racing Metro 92, Pl2, 15:15
Edinburgh v London Irish, Pl2, 15:15

Tables (only showing teams technically capable of going through tries scored in the ())

Pool 1
Munster 20 (9)
Northampton 12 (15)
Scarlets 11 (10)

Pool 2
Edinburgh 17 (13)
Cardiff 17 (6)

Pool 3
Leinster 20 (15)
Glasgow 11 (6)

Pool 4
Ulster 19 (16)
Clermont 16 (25)
Leicester 12 (9)

Pool 5
saracens 18 (11)
Biarritz 13 (13)
Ospreys 13 (12)

Pool 6
Toulouse 18 (13)
Harlequins 16 (10)

Current top 8

Leinster 20
Munster 20
Ulster 19
Toulose 18
Saracens 18
Edinburgh 17
Cardiff 17
Clermont 16

Pool 1

Munster (V Nortampton) have already qualified but need to get a win to secure a home quarter final and with Northampton looking for a place in the amlin cup this might not be the easiest. If munster lose with a bonus point and any 4 of Leinster, Toulouse, Saracens, Ulster and Edinburgh( due to more tries scored) win then Munster are away, (Cardiff could also pass them but need a good number of tries). A no bonus point loss will also see Harlequins and Clermont having the ability to pass them

Northampton (V Munster) are mathimatically still in it, If they get a bonus point win they need Edinburgh/cardiff and Clermont to lose without a bonus point, Harlequins to lose, Biarrritz and ospreys to not get bonus point wins and Leicster to not score 7 more tries then they do

Scarlets need a miracle and at least 16 tries

Pool 2

Edinburgh ( V London Irish) and Cardiff ( V racing metro) winner of the group could be looking at home quarter final if Munster don't and Ulster don't get wins so a lot to play for. However if Clermont get a bonus point a Harlequins get a try fest against Connact then the second place team may need a bonus point win to take a best loser spot

Pool 3

Leinster (V montpellier) have already qualified and just need a better result then any other 2 pool toppers to confirm a home quarter.

glasgow need a miracle and at least 20 tries


Pool 4

Ulster ( V Clermount) need a win for a home quarter final spot but maybe also to stay in the comp. Harlequins if they get a bonus point win and Cardiff/Edinburgh could easily slip past them if they lose however with harelquins playing on Friday night they will have the advantage of knowing what they have to do to make it to the quarter finals

Clermont ( V Ulster) if they win against Ulster they are in (probably an away draw) , if the lose chances are they will be out

Leicester in the same boat as Northampton so although mathimatically still there chances are it won't happen but need Ulster to win and clermont to not pick up a bonus point to have any shot

Pool 5

Saracens ( V Treviso) need a bonus point win and for someone else to slip up to get a home quarter and just a point for automatic qualification, however treviso could be a banana skin for them.

Biarritz ( V Ospreys) a bonus point win with Saracens getting nothing could see them top the group, other then that need 2 of Harlequins\Clermont\cardiff to slip up to get through

Ospreys can't win the group (i think) so need 3 of Harlequins\Clermont\cardiff\Biarritz to go through


Pool 6

Toulouse (v Glouster) need a bonus point win to secure a home quarter and a place in the quarters. If they lose and Harlequins win Cardiff and Ulster (if they lose) could pip them for a best runners up spot with a bonus point


Harlequins ( V Connacht) need to target a bonus point win, anything else and they could be out, However Cardiff and Ulster are the only teams that can beat them for a best runners up spot if they do win

JustinDee

Excellent summary, justsomebloke.
Saved me a load of work

Gallee

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69681378

Have'nt posted enough to be able to say thanks so Thank You for that.

Gracelessly Tom

Here's how I see the top 8 teams and there finishing points.

Leinster 25
Saracens 23
Toulouse 22
Cardiff 21
Clermont 20
Munster 20
Edinburgh 21 (runner up)
Quinns 20 (runner up)

Ulster unfortunately going out by dint of not getting the losing bonus point. Would love to see them get through but it's a big ask. The top 8 like that would see the following Q finals

Leinster v Quinns
Sarries v Edinburgh
Toulouse v Munster
Cardiff v Clermont

As for who'd win those games, too early to tell, still 3 months off and a lot can happen in the meantime!