Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

NickDrake

durkadurka wrote: »

Leinster lost at home to london Irish two years ago and still got a home qf. As long as you can get to about 18 points somehow you're still in it.

That group was nowhere near the standard of this one.

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

Northhampton are defo out of it. Lose a home game and it is goodbye

Definitely not out of it.
They've Castres twice now, and could easily get 9-10 points in that, putting them at 11-12 points.
Should Munster win with 4 tomorrow, and if the Mun-Scarlets back to back was drawn 5-5, all likely results, that would leave the standings:

Scarlets 14
Munster 13
Northampton 11-12

I wouldn't put it past Northampton to win in Wales and beat Munster at home.
In a group with three good teams in it, losing at home may not be the be all and end all.

iroced

wixfjord wrote: »

What do people think, is this a good or bad result for Munster?

Well, I'd say it all depends on their result tomorrow in Castres. A defeat would be problematic for you.

NickDrake

wixfjord wrote: »

Definitely not out of it.
They've Castres twice now, and could easily get 9-10 points in that, putting them at 11-12 points.
Should Munster win with 4 tomorrow, and if the Mun-Scarlets back to back was drawn 5-5, all likely results, that would leave the standings:

Scarlets 14
Munster 13
Northampton 11-12

I wouldn't put it past Northampton to win in Wales and beat Munster at home.
In a group with three good teams in it, losing at home may not be the be all and end all.

I totally disagree. they are out of it . Not a hope.

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

That group was nowhere near the standard of this one.

But a tighter group makes it more likely that you'll get through on less points, and there were three good teams in it that year too.
In fact, it's remarkably similar in standard!
Irish lost to Scarlets twice that year iirc and drew with Leinster which ****ed them up.

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

I totally disagree. they are out of it . Not a hope.

Wow good logic, what part of my above hypothesis do you disagree with?!

matthew8

NickDrake wrote: »

That group was nowhere near the standard of this one.

So what? All that means is probably that less points will be needed to qualify, as teams won't be granted 2 free wins (unless Castres turn out really bad).

wixfjord

iroced wrote: »

Well, I'd say it all depends on their result tomorrow in Castres. A defeat would be problematic for you.

Not problematic for me at all!

NickDrake

wixfjord wrote: »

Wow good logic, what part of my above hypothesis do you disagree with?!

No need for insults mate. Scarlets and Munster will not lose at home. Thats my opinion. We will seem come Jan.

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

No need for insults mate. Scarlets and Munster will not lose at home. Thats my opinion. We will seem come Jan.

Munster don't need to lose at home, and Parc Y Scarlets is hardly an impenetrable fortress!

Kristopherus

Highlights of Edinburgh now on S4C

NickDrake

wixfjord wrote: »

Munster don't need to lose at home, and Parc Y Scarlets is hardly an impenetrable fortress!

Hilarious. Scarlets are a good side.

Look only the winner will get out of this group and no way do I see Northampton getting ahead of Scarlets and Munster. It won't happen

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

Hilarious. Scarlets are a good side.

Look only the winner will get out of this group and no way do I see Northampton getting ahead of Scarlets and Munster. It won't happen

Well no, it could very easily happen as I've explained.
They're on the back foot, but not out of it yet by a long shot.

durkadurka

wixfjord wrote: »

Munster don't need to lose at home, and Parc Y Scarlets is hardly an impenetrable fortress!

I dont know why you bother. Arguing a reasonable statistical possibility vs an entrenched opinion.

wixfjord

durkadurka wrote: »

I dont know why you bother. Arguing a reasonable statistical possibility vs an entrenched opinion.

Reason and logic don't seem to wash with some on here.
I just love arguing though!

durkadurka

wixfjord wrote: »

Reason and logic don't seem to wash with some on here.
I just love arguing though!

I just can't be arsed...

NickDrake

wixfjord wrote: »

Reason and logic don't seem to wash with some on here.
I just love arguing though!

Because you think you are always right?

wixfjord

NickDrake wrote: »

Because you think you are always right?

No, because I like to make logical arguments, based in knowledge of the game, and have knowledgeable posters argue back with me, also with logical arguments.

What I don't like is opinions with posters continuously giving opinions with no foundation, and not admitting that they're completly wrong even when it's plainly obvious.

However i do know that I've only been wrong once in my life, and that was when I thought I was incorrect about something.

durkadurka

You can't rule any result out now.

Year of the Celt so far. Welsh unbeaten. Scots unbeaten, Irish unbeaten apart from Connacht. Who'd have thought it?

thomond2006

durkadurka wrote: »

You can't rule any result out now.

Year of the Celt so far. Welsh unbeaten. Scots unbeaten, Irish unbeaten apart from Connacht. Who'd have thought it?

Aye, Edinburgh is probably the biggest shock of them all. If anyone suggested 2 weeks ago that Edinburgh would win away to LI and beat Racing at home, they would have been denounced!

durkadurka

I getting more worried about glasgow now...

Diabhal Beag

As somebody just getting into club rugby this Heineken Cup campaign has been brilliant so far. Priestland is some prospect.

Fishooks12

Delighted the Scottish sides are making a resurgence. This could be the best HC for years too given how competitive it is

Glasgow won't give Leinster an easy time tomorrow either

durkadurka

Embra really have a huge shot at a qf now.
The welsh should defo be in the qf too.
This really is shaping up.

GerM

Priestland's turnaround has been remarkable. This time last year he started to spark a bit and it has just snowballed. Before that he was seen as a big lump of an outhalf with a big, inaccurate boot and not a lot else. Teams used enjoy seeing him in the Llanelli line up. He's arguably playing the best rugby of any outhalf in this part of the world now.

With that said, Llanelli rode their luck big time this evening and their tries were seriously fortuitous. First one from a hack through, second from failure to gather a kick off (not mentioning the offside and knock on), third one a gimme from a Northampton knock on near their own line and the last one a screw up and some opportunism. On another night they wouldn't have scored 10 points. Mad game. Pool flipped on its head but if Munster win tomorrow, I can't see them not topping the pool. Llanelli have a great back line but they can't win games if they don't have the ball.

irishbucsfan

Fair play to Scarlets. Played brilliantly at times.

Northampton are still one of the best teams in the competition. Ryan Lamb has made them better (he's really matured as a player, could well play for England in the next 6 Nations).

Incidentally I thought tonight was the perfect example of why James Downey is not up to the standard. Takes everything out of the ball and shortens the options on wide moves. They really should have May in that team more consistently. Or Pisi.

matthew8

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fair play to Scarlets. Played brilliantly at times.

Northampton are still one of the best teams in the competition. Ryan Lamb has made them better (he's really matured as a player, could well play for England in the next 6 Nations).

Incidentally I thought tonight was the perfect example of why James Downey is not up to the standard. Takes everything out of the ball and shortens the options on wide moves. They really should have May in that team more consistently. Or Pisi.

Lamb is awful. I don't know how you can be of the opinion that he has made them better. Also, on Downey, he played brilliantly a week ago, he was one of their better backs tonight.

profitius

Nigel Davies is one of the shrewdest coaches in the game. He questioned the Saints scrum during the week and the ref watched it carefully. I hope McGahan does the same next time they face Saints.

Llanelli targeted Northampton where they were weak and got richly rewarded. The Munster match must have knocked a bit out of Northampton too.

irishbucsfan

matthew8 wrote: »

Lamb is awful. I don't know how you can be of the opinion that he has made them better. Also, on Downey, he played brilliantly a week ago, he was one of their better backs tonight.

What exactly about Lamb's game is awful??

And Downey was nowhere near one of their better backs tonight. So many times they had space out wide and he just straightened. Scarlets were able to push their defense on practically every phase where he was second receiver because they just did not have to worry about the ball going out wide. He is good away from home, because their style of play suits him better. Tom May is already starting to take his place in the AP despite only joining the club, with players like Pisi, Ashton, Foden and Artemiev out wide they just aren't going to leave Downey in the team if he keeps playing like he did tonight. Maybe away from home in tight games, but not in any situation where they're expected to have any form of possession.

matthew8

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What exactly about Lamb's game is awful??

And Downey was nowhere near one of their better backs tonight. So many times they had space out wide and he just straightened. Scarlets were able to push their defense on practically every phase where he was second receiver because they just did not have to worry about the ball going out wide. He is good away from home, because their style of play suits him better. Tom May is already starting to take his place in the AP despite only joining the club, with players like Pisi, Ashton, Foden and Artemiev out wide they just aren't going to leave Downey in the team if he keeps playing like he did tonight. Maybe away from home in tight games, but not in any situation where they're expected to have any form of possession.

Lamb misses kicks that schools kickers should get. He's also a poor kicker out of hand, which is why Northampton's penalties have gone relatively unrewarded.

Saying Downey was one of their better backs was putting a nice spin on things I admit, but Pisi was out of position and had a very poor game, Ashton was awful in attack and reminded me that I don't like him for the Scarlets 4th try. I've already explained why I don't like Lamb, Clarke wasn't up to much, nor was Artemyiev, and Dickson had a poor game.

irishbucsfan

matthew8 wrote: »

Lamb misses kicks that schools kickers should get. He's also a poor kicker out of hand, which is why Northampton's penalties have gone relatively unrewarded.

His kicking out of hand has been brilliant in the last two games and he's kicking something like 75%. He has really gotten better since he joined Northampton, which is what I said. To be honest I don't know how you can be of the opinion that Meyler was better?!

matthew8 wrote: »

Saying Downey was one of their better backs was putting a nice spin on things I admit, but Pisi was out of position and had a very poor game, Ashton was awful in attack and reminded me that I don't like him for the Scarlets 4th try. I've already explained why I don't like Lamb, Clarke wasn't up to much, nor was Artemyiev, and Dickson had a poor game.

Maybe all of those outside backs wouldn't have played so badly if they'd actually been given decent delivery in space on the numerous occasions that Downey elected to run the ball instead of pass it. Their centres are a weak link, but May and Pisi are a better potential combination than Downey and Clarke.

thomond2006

Reading Northampton discussion forms, they were shocked that Pisi was put at 15 and not Greig Tonks. They all rate Tonks as the best backup to Foden.

Foden's absence cost Saints big time.

Hype710

Surprised Noah Cato wasn't involved, thought he was destined for great things after watching him destroy the Irish 20s about three seasons ago.

matthew8

His kicking out of hand has been brilliant in the last two games and he's kicking something like 75%. He has really gotten better since he joined Northampton, which is what I said. To be honest I don't know how you can be of the opinion that Meyler was better?!

You must've closed your eyes whenever he kicked for touch on a penalty against Munster.

Maybe all of those outside backs wouldn't have played so badly if they'd actually been given decent delivery in space on the numerous occasions that Downey elected to run the ball instead of pass it. Their centres are a weak link, but May and Pisi are a better potential combination than Downey and Clarke.

They were awful in defense too.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Reading Northampton discussion forms, they were shocked that Pisi was put at 15 and not Greig Tonks. They all rate Tonks as the best backup to Foden.

Foden's absence cost Saints big time.

Not to mention it meant putting Pisi out of position...

Then again, Greig Tonks is quite young isn't he? Maybe it was too much too soon for him.

.ak

Why wasn't Artemyiev played at fb?

JustinDee

My one beef with this season's ERC comps, is the increased intrusiveness of the cameras at each game. Never mind being in the dressing rooms, a place I'm adamant should be blocked from the public eye.
Walking on-field and sticking a camera in the official following a decision or a player after a try is poor, in my view.
After the poor taste of hounding David Wallace up close as he writhed in agony during the RWC warm-up, I would have thought directors would know their place.

durkadurka

Presumably the promise of filthy lucre has made the clubs sign up to it. I'm amazed they permit dressing room cameras.

Podge_irl

I was really surprised by the dressing room cam at the RWC. Didn't realise they had it at the HEC too. Completely unnecessary and just strikes me as pandering to a certain odd voyeurism.

irishbucsfan

The auld dressing room cam has been embraced by a good few sports at this stage (apart from soccer I think, which is odd). I wonder how the players and coaches feel about it.

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The auld dressing room cam has been embraced by a good few sports at this stage (apart from soccer I think, which is odd). I wonder how the players and coaches feel about it.

It ain't popular.

irishbucsfan

Biarritz Olympique : 15 Dane Haylett-Petty, 14 Taku Ngwenya, 13 Benoît Baby, 12 Damien Traille, 11 Iain Balshaw, 10 Marcelo Bosch, 9 Luix Roussarie, 8 Raphael Lakafia, 7 Imanol Harinordoquy, 6 Benoit Guyot, 5 Erik Lund, 4 Jérôme Thion, 3 Sylvain Marconnet, 2 Benoit August, 1 Fabien Barcella.
Replacements: 16 Arnaud Heguy, 17 Yvan Watremez, 18 Francisco Gomez Kodela, 19 Pelu Taele, 20 Florian Faure, 21 Yann Lesgourgues, 22 Julien Peyrelongue, 23 Ilikena Bolakoro.

Saracens: 15 Chris Wyles, 14 David Strettle, 13 Owen Farrell, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 James Short, 10 Charlie Hodgson, 9 Ben Spencer, 8 Ernst Joubert, 7 Jacques Burger, 6 Kelly Brown, 5 Hayden Smith, 4 Steve Borthwick, 3 Matt Stevens, 2 John Smit, 1 Rhys Gill.
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Deon Carstens, 18 Carlos Nieto, 19 Mouritz Botha, 20 Andy Saull, 21 Luke Baldwin, 22 Adam Powell, 23 Alex Goode.

Date: Saturday, November 19
Venue: Parc des Sports Aguilera, Biarritz
Kick-off: 14.30 (13.30 GMT)
Referee: Nigel Owens

Right first things first. Saracens travel to Biarritz. With Owens in charge Biarritz should have a bit more of a home advantage. The team they have out is excellent as well. I reckon a 7 point win for Biarritz.

matthew8

Treviso have to learn how to defend.

matthew8

Ospreys-Treviso is great, evenly matched, Burton is class. Biarritz-Saracens is 0-0, anyone watching it?

profitius

matthew8 wrote: »

Ospreys-Treviso is great, evenly matched, Burton is class. Biarritz-Saracens is 0-0, anyone watching it?

I'm only able to watch the Biarritz Saracens match. Biarritz are as dull as ever.

DDC1990

matthew8 wrote: »

Ospreys-Treviso is great, evenly matched, Burton is class. Biarritz-Saracens is 0-0, anyone watching it?

Yes. Its turgid stuff.

Biarritz should be 20 points ahead. Saracens are rubbish, but Biarritz keep knocking the ball on to keep them in it.

Sky of course are billing it as a brilliant performance from Saracens, but despite a good defensive performance, hey are clueless with the ball, panicing with every turnover and booting it straight back to Biarritz. Biarritz have missed 2 kickable penalties and been on the Saracens line 3 times with no success.

Knock ons, Holdng on, and a 5m Scrum bouncing off the 2nd Row's knee over to the saracens side have kept them in the game.

Biarritz to win by 10 if they start making the ball stick. If not, anything could happen.

Could be 3-0 Saracens.

irishbucsfan

If Bosch could kick, Biarritz would be dangerous. Their pack is so organised in possession.

Saracens have defended brilliantly though in fairness to them. Borthwick is playing a blinder.

irishbucsfan

Saracens just won a tighthead?! That's rare these days.

bleg

Treviso leading Ospreys 21-13

Burgo

50 mins gone Trevisio 21 - 13 Ospreys.