DotA 2 General Chat Thread

BMMachine

oh i might be up for some of those inhouses if you need a ringer. ive played since 2005 with many teams so i have experience!

Tar.Aldarion

BMMachine wrote: »

lets talk more about vangaurd
finally found a hero i think its pretty much core on - slardar! minimizes the damage he takes from sprint and makes him a tougher target to deal with in team fights. you kinda need to kill him fast as the cooldown on his stun is really low. so power treads - vangaurd - blink - bkb
also used one on spectre the other night, went 15 - 0 - 22 with him i think the old school tanky radience build is better in public games as you will generally find your farm easier so you can turn him into an absolute beast. by skipping the heart after you get diffusal/radi you can get a big mean item like butterfly or mkb to make his ulti even more hilarious. its an old school build as you are levelling his dispersion instead of the damage skill but it means you can farm the jungle easier if you are under too much pressure in lane.

you could also argue vangaurd is core on axe too but maybe rushing blink is better if you get tranquils. a former TCM player i know swears by vangaurd but hes also insanely aggressive and likes to dive a lot
any other uses for this (fantastic!) item?

Hmm I think vanguard is not a great item, only due to there being things that are better than it and how fast it falls off to worthlessness.

'If you are going to take 100 damage with 0 armor, but block the 40. Then you take 60. If you have 5 armor then without vanguard you take 77 damage, with vanguard you will take 47 damage. So 0 armor is a change of 40 damage, 5 armor is 30 damage, this all follows the formula of 40(1-physical damage resistance).*
Slardar has 8 armor at level 9, meaning you only block 28 damage with it, versus the 14 from stout shield. But you could have a blink with that money or an armlet
So, increasing armor means your vanguard is worthless. For 2k gold you should get an item that isn't a glorified ring of health and point booster. Hell, I'm even ignoring that once people start dealing more damage vanguard is also worse. Buy an armlet or a ring of basilius or a vlads or a solo point booster or tranquil boots, or some combination. IMO there is always a better option than vanguard to do what vanguard is supposed to do. You can still buy it and you can still win with it, but that doesn't mean the item is good.'
Here are some maths on vanguard: http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14hy72/math/

Thing is, armlet is way better. He has great carry potential which is just dented by vanguard. He should be getting treads armlet, bkb, ac, vlads, mjoll. Even get an Orchid Malevolence if he is ganking all the time. He's not an initiator, he is a decimator! Vanguard is an early game item that relies on being ahead, but it doesn't even make that much of an impact when you build it, compared to items like armlet, drums, etc.

Like any item it's all situational to be honest. I'd get a vangaurd as certain heroes against certain line ups once my early farm is good. It just keeps you alive in the early game & early meta game and allows you stay in lanes farming with the HP regen on it. I'd be a regular with armlet on slardar but again totally situational, if you're against a mass nuking team the last thing you need is an item that negates your health long term in team fights accompanied by the extra damage from sprint.

VG is a must on Spectre, it's literally made for the hero so unless you're getting insane farm and can do straight radiance I nearly always get it. I think I've lost 3 games as Spectre out of 15-20 and I'm in a pretty decent skill tier the last time I checked so if it works for me I can't see why it wouldn't for anyone else.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah it's pretty good on spectre, becomes a tank! There's certainly not one way to play doto. I'm always torn on spectre because armet gives more HP than vanguard with semi-decent toggling, which I'm **** at :pac: People do think it's just a big drain on HP in a teamfight, for lots of people it's not, I'm not the best with it though. I tend to run around with it on too long, if you toggle you actually gain hp. Also it gives you more effective hp, due to the armour and so on. All this and armlet was buffed! Also a lot of the time you're forced to fight as spectre early as they are pressuring, if you use armlet then haunt your illusions get all the buffs. Then again I dont get radiance, when i used to I got vanguard all right. It's pretty good early game if you plan on team fighting.

deconduo

I dunno, in nearly all cases Drums + SS/PMS > Vanguard. Even mek is a better item choice for heroes like axe/dark seer.

In the case of Spectre, just get a naked vit booster and build it into a heart after you get Diffusal/Radiance.

Tar.Aldarion

Somebody asks us about dota 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcK0b99t39w

deconduo

deconduo wrote: »

I dunno, in nearly all cases Drums + SS/PMS > Vanguard. Even mek is a better item choice for heroes like axe/dark seer.

In the case of Spectre, just get a naked vit booster and build it into a heart after you get Diffusal/Radiance.

Again depends on the line up or type of game you are in. If you have free farm and aren't being harassed a drum and then bigger items works fine but if you're being ganked/harrassed quite a bit a vanguard gives you survivability + the HP regen to let you stay in the lane a lot longer. So in public when lanes aren't as structured as they should be I think a VG is better on a spectre every time. It's no surprise that VG was a core item on most heroes before competitive play changed so much. I'd love to see the difference between the first & second international's stats on VG's bought. Teams are happy that if it's farm DOTA that they pretty much leave eachother's carries at it and win everywhere else. So there is no need for an early survivability item like a VG, and with everything that happens in competitive play picks, builds etc people are copying this in public when it's a totally differently animal. That's what I think anyway and most solo casters like Purge amongst others have the same view point to public. I've played with/against a few top players in MM, STALINIER is a perfect example he'll build a hero differently in a public game.

For example on Dark Seer in a CM game with my team I'd play long solo most games, I'd always get a mek but if I was playing there in pub I'd probably go vanguard.

BMMachine

Deleted User wrote: »

Again depends on the line up or type of game you are in. If you have free farm and aren't being harassed a drum and then bigger items works fine but if you're being ganked/harrassed quite a bit a vanguard gives you survivability + the HP regen to let you stay in the lane a lot longer. So in public when lanes aren't as structured as they should be I think a VG is better on a spectre every time. It's no surprise that VG was a core item on most heroes before competitive play changed so much. I'd love to see the difference between the first & second international's stats on VG's bought. Teams are happy that if it's farm DOTA that they pretty much leave eachother's carries at it and win everywhere else. So there is no need for an early survivability item like a VG, and with everything that happens in competitive play picks, builds etc people are copying this in public when it's a totally differently animal. That's what I think anyway and most solo casters like Purge amongst others have the same view point to public. I've played with/against a few top players in MM, STALINIER is a perfect example he'll build a hero differently in a public game.

For example on Dark Seer in a CM game with my team I'd play long solo most games, I'd always get a mek but if I was playing there in pub I'd probably go vanguard.

exactly this. people copy the pro builds not understanding that thats a build for pro team vs pro team. even in regular ladder games the builds & picks can be very difficult. seen KP using spiritbreaker on sing sing recently? well hes (bara) been about on ladders and such for years and years. hes very hard to deal with for non-pro players but is rarely picked in big tournaments.
same goes for items, mathematical effectiveness doesnt mean as much when the players arent as good

Tar.Aldarion

Teamplay was a reason pros said pubs shouldn't get vanguard. Mostly because it requires teamwork to be effective and if it is not used optimally early on it's just a waste of space in inventory (can't be disassembled), that's why some opt for a raw booster. Along with this vg used to be popular and is not now, not just because of the meta (if spectre is just left alone to farm she doesnt need it anyway) but because everybody thinks armlet is better now. vg got nerfed a little 275 ->250 hp. has 6 hp regen. Even the introducion of things like tranquils affected vanguard.On the other hand armlet used to give 5hp and have a 5 second cool down. Now it has +7 hp +9 Damage +5 Armor +15 Attack speed and an active which gives a further +31 damage, +10 attack speed + 25 strength (+475 hp) for pretty much the same price, with a 40 sec hp drain. Not only that it is much better now with a 2 second abusable toggle, 5 seconds, this was not possible. Thing about armlet is people use it badly and then they should get a vanguard.

Tar.Aldarion

This should be stopped though

BMMachine

why oh why hasnt there been a concede introduced to this game
with matchmaking as bad as it is its just making solo play a lesson in frustration. "another 50 minute game where the games over by 20 and the enemy team trolls for 30 minutes? sounds great!"
the arguement of "oh everyone will want to concede on 15 mins" or something isnt a valid reason against it. we all know how bad the players & matchmaking are so why not let us leave when a game is clearly over instead of watching a team of 4 troll

I feel you but I have to say that the satisfaction of playing on in a game when you think you have no chance in winning and then turning it around makes up for it in my opinion. Happened with me and GoBear 2 weeks which we posted about. A 20k difference in gold turnaround, we would have 100% conceded as well so I'm happy to keep it how it is. That's only one example and I've been in a few similar but that was the biggest turn around. If the concede option was brought in I think it would make things very boring indeed.

BMMachine

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel you but I have to say that the satisfaction of playing on in a game when you think you have no chance in winning and then turning it around makes up for it in my opinion. Happened with me and GoBear 2 weeks which we posted about. A 20k difference in gold turnaround, we would have 100% conceded as well so I'm happy to keep it how it is. That's only one example and I've been in a few similar but that was the biggest turn around. If the concede option was brought in I think it would make things very boring indeed.

oh this happens, but no, that 1 time in 100 doesnt make up for the other 99 trollfests. valve really really overestimates how the good the public are at the game and seems to be unaware of player behavior (not talking about chat flaming).

and concede never made HoN boring. it was just a handy tool. "oh they are a team of 4 and they severely outclass the dmpstrs on this team." thats when you are very thankful for concede.
and remember, this is the community that has severe difficulty in pressing "accept" to launch a game

cherryghost

NeoSlicerZ wrote: »

'Balanced' shuffle. WR suicide lane the highest level on the map for 10 minutes vs CK/WD. Should have just picked druid, ignore team, acquire farm.
'?' summed up that game.

Nice to meet you too.

BMMachine

BMMachine wrote: »

oh this happens, but no, that 1 time in 100 doesnt make up for the other 99 trollfests. valve really really overestimates how the good the public are at the game and seems to be unaware of player behavior (not talking about chat flaming).

and concede never made HoN boring. it was just a handy tool. "oh they are a team of 4 and they severely outclass the dmpstrs on this team." thats when you are very thankful for concede.
and remember, this is the community that has severe difficulty in pressing "accept" to launch a game

Ah yeah I know pal it can be incredibly frustrating at times but just play out the storm while not defending & they will just push as they will get bored when they can't improve their score. I'd only encourage this if it is a total steam roll with no hope of a fight back.

I loved HoN and was annoyed there was no concede button when I switched to DOTA, however I soon changed my mind. Even going back to HoN once or twice in the last year or so showed me that maybe 1 in 3/4 games last less then 25 minutes due to concedes. No fun in that really and I don't want DOTA to go down that route. Saying that I did have the kag Maliken bomb in HoN who wouldn't concede?

BMMachine

oh mali... S2 were so bad at making heroes. he was a great hero and all but, that was kinda the problem. he was like dk on steroids. remember beta engineer? the most loltastic hero ive ever seen ever.
oh i know how to let the other team win and all but the fact remains, you are still locked in a game with people that you want nothing to do with. maybe its my old age but this has no appeal to me at all. you cant leave as you go down to the low priority so you have to sit there waiting for a game to end and if you dont you get punished for it. if matchmaking was better i would have no issue with it, but the fact is their matchmaking is completely broken. they wont really admit that though and coupled with their denial on how the community really is, games, the things you play to relax, arent really worth the hassle because you might just waste 50 minutes watching a load of undesirables running around reminding you just how sad they really are. i suppose thats just the way gaming is going nowadays

Tar.Aldarion

I barely played hon but the puppet master guy was the bomb

BMMachine

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I barely played hon but the puppet master guy was the bomb

with that item that makes him do magic damage and an orchids ><

i wonder if such an item is viable in dota? it would probably be op as f**k

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I barely played hon but the puppet master guy was the bomb

Figures, paedos likes paedos

Harkons blade was the item I think?

BMMachine

is there a viable glass cannon in pro play nowadays? i can only really think of luna and morph who dont see too much action

NeoSlicerZ

SF, I wouldn't call Morph a glass cannon.... 3 survival mechanisms.

BMMachine

BMMachine wrote: »

is there a viable glass cannon in pro play nowadays? i can only really think of luna and morph who dont see too much action

Shadow fiend in short lane, you see it the odd time. Well I did the last time I watch a Tobi steam a month or so ago.

NeoSlicerZ

Deleted User wrote: »

Shadow fiend in short lane, you see it the odd time. Well I did the last time I watch a Tobi steam a month or so ago.

KP's run SF mid a lot. Na'vi's done it quite a few times aswell.

BMMachine

ah yes, the big guy. i have seen him whomp teams in a few games recently. od you can argue as well. hmmmmm it appears im an idiot

on another note, it was nice to see bara being used by KP. now when i pick him hopefully my team wont have a conniption about it

NeoSlicerZ

NeoSlicerZ wrote: »

KP's run SF mid a lot. Na'vi's done it quite a few times aswell.

Yep but I'd say he is the most ganked hero in any game if he's put mid. Dendi normally play him doesn't he? Probably the best snowball hero in the game imo

NeoSlicerZ

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep but I'd say he is the most ganked hero in any game if he's put mid. Dendi normally play him doesn't he? Probably the best snowball hero in the game imo

Oh for sure a SF gets sat on mid a lot but the hero fulfills the role of a luna/gyro but with more early midgame damage and catches up faster with stacking. I think a storm can take over a game more but is obviously more limited.

GO_Bear

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably the best feeder hero in the game imo

FTFY

BMMachine

gyro as well. jesus, way to make me look stupid!
yeah dendi rarely plays sf. hes far better as a ganker mid with stuns/disables imo. hes not the kind of hero that suits xboct either so im not too sure.
sf is also the hero most of the pubnubs say to the old "1v1 mid only" challenge because as we all know, last hitting = true doto skillz

NeoSlicerZ

Dendi's an excellent SF... also, have you not watched the 1v1s at the Red Bull LAN where Burning got crushed at 1v1 SF mid.

cherryghost

OT a bit, but isn't Burning retiring at the end of the summer?