Refund tenant? Some, all or nothing?

Zulu

They're breaking the contract. Keep the deposit.

Jagera

BostonB wrote: »

Story changing as the thread progresses.

LL and tenants really need to get into the habit of formalising their communications. It would encourage them to do things properly.

Where has it changed? And what would you suggest for formalising communications? Registered post, or what do you mean? We had been emailing over the last 10 months with no problem.

Ray Palmer

UDP wrote: »

We are all just giving opinions since none of us will be ones making a judgement for this case if it goes that far. The fact is the OP was in breach of statutory requirements which the tenants could claim was important information that they were not furnished and they could also claim that they landlord did not live up to his/her obligations with regards repairing the reported problem with the shower.
.

You see that is where you are wrong it is isn't opinion it is experience I am giving. You are giving opinion without any experience. It was quite obvious frm the start that the drain was not completely blocked and it was not effecting them from living there otherwise they would have made a bigger fuss. You also think that this would qualify as a failure to have statutory requirements, which it would not.
You still fail to see the BER IS NOT a reason to break a lease untill proven in court. It isn't opinion it is fact, there is a belief that it could possibly be used that is all nothing more. To claim otherwise is simply incorrect.

OP
Breaking a lease does mean you can with hold the deposit. It isn't often done due to the animosity it creates. I would hold the decision off until you see the place and have checked the bills but probably wouldn't give it back due to the fraud they commited.

Jagera

Ray Palmer wrote: »

OP
Breaking a lease does mean you can with hold the deposit. It isn't often done due to the animosity it creates. I would hold the decision off until you see the place and have checked the bills but probably wouldn't give it back due to the fraud they commited.

I don't plan to use the SW fraud as any kind of reason for the deposit discussion. The reason for their leaving is dodgy, but I cannot use it as ammo for retaining the deposit.

Ray Palmer

bw wrote: »

I don't plan to use the SW fraud as any kind of reason for the deposit discussion. The reason for their leaving is dodgy, but I cannot use it as ammo for retaining the deposit.

Not as ammo just an additional reason that would make me personally keep it. They used your property to defraud the state that would annoy me along with the fact it will bring into question your property with regard to RA. They should have required you to sign papers in order to get RA so they did commit fraud using your address if not your actual name. Your call

BostonB

bw wrote: »

Where has it changed? And what would you suggest for formalising communications? Registered post, or what do you mean? We had been emailing over the last 10 months with no problem.

For example - You didn't mention you had it all in email.

If you have the reason for leaving in email you've no problem.

Jagera

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not as ammo just an additional reason that would make me personally keep it. They used your property to defraud the state that would annoy me along with the fact it will bring into question your property with regard to RA. They should have required you to sign papers in order to get RA so they did commit fraud using your address if not your actual name. Your call

I know what you mean. It's fraud. But that fraud wasn't committed against me. The thing against me is simply terminating the lease.

Ray Palmer

bw wrote: »

I know what you mean. It's fraud. But that fraud wasn't committed against me. The thing against me is simply terminating the lease.

If you didn't sign RA forms it was commited against you even though you lost nothing financially your reputation has been effected. Your call really but I wouldn't let it go. Get your BER done when they leave. You do need it. You should look at the insulation grants too.

odds_on

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you didn't sign RA forms it was commited against you even though you lost nothing financially your reputation has been effected. Your call really but I wouldn't let it go. Get your BER done when they leave. You do need it. You should look at the insulation grants too.

Just a thought, but doesn't seem to apply in this case. If the tenant was claiming rent allowance fraudulently, and if the SW payment was paid directly to the landlord, cannot the welfare come looking to the landlord for the rent that they have paid "in error"?

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

Story changing as the thread progresses.

LL and tenants really need to get into the habit of formalising their communications. It would encourage them to do things properly.

My own lease says:
To notify the Landlord or the landlord’s Agent, of disrepair, or damage or breakdown of appliances, within 48 hours by one of the emergency contact means (see Landlord Covenants clause 5.7) and in writing within 5 days.


1. A tenant should advise his landlord as soon as he realizes there is a problem with any item or appliance. If the breakdown/failure is of a serious nature the tenant should phone the landlord and advise him accordingly.
2. Follow up the phone call with a written statement of the fault AND say that the landlord should make repairs/replacement within a reasonable time - depending on the nature of the problem, usually 7 to 14 days is reasonable.

3. Any delay beyond the reasonable time and the landlord may be in breach of his obligations. This breach of obligations may give the tenant the right to break the lease with no penalty.

Ray Palmer

odds_on wrote: »

Just a thought, but doesn't seem to apply in this case. If the tenant was claiming rent allowance fraudulently, and if the SW payment was paid directly to the landlord, cannot the welfare come looking to the landlord for the rent that they have paid "in error"?

RA is not paid directly to the LL unlesss requested. So the LL iss not liable for the fraud but even if it was he is not normally privy to the details of the claim.

Rental contracts are different not all have the clause you have stated.

OP what does your lease state?

edanto

And if it were to come to a dispute where the tenant claimed a valid breach under item 3 above, their case would be stronger if they had requested by email the shower drain fixed within a certain time frame.

If that is not the case by now, then their case is weaker and it looks like they're exaggerating the drain issue to try and save their deposit.

If they insist on claiming their deposit through PRTB, I presume you can enforce the lease and make them liable for the 2 remaining months rent AND the deposit. Check that with someone who knows for sure and if it's the case you could point it out to them before they go down that path. And after you have the keys! (have they moved out already, or when will they?)

Jagera

Ray Palmer wrote: »

OP what does your lease state?

Lease mentions nothing of RA, it was paid directly to them. I am out of that loop, thankfully.

edanto

I think he meant what does your lease say in relation to the point in post 41 ?

Also - did they ask you to fix the shower by a particular date?

stargazer 68

Well OP according to the PRTB site you are only allowed to keep the rent owed to you from the deposit - 2 months. Unless I have read it wrong.

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Deposit%20Refund.doc

'Therefore if a tenant ends a tenancy by giving a landlord less than the required period of notice, or only verbal notice, or a written notice that does not comply with the Act, it is at the landlord's discretion whether to make a deduction from the deposit in respect of the outstanding rent appropriate to the notice period to which he/she was entitled by way of a valid Notice of Termination'

jsd1004

BostonB wrote: »

You can't claim for normal cleaning costs.

Personally I'd consider you to have broken the lease by not fixing the shower, just as they have by breaking the lease. But if they take it to PRTB I think they'd split the difference, 50% back 50% retrained. Of course you have all this in writing. Yes.

The shower was not broken the drain was blocked. Are tenants not liable for blocking drains? All showers will clog with hair if they are not cleaned periodically.

Jagera

Dovies wrote: »

Well OP according to the PRTB site you are only allowed to keep the rent owed to you from the deposit - 2 months. Unless I have read it wrong.

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Deposit%20Refund.doc

'Therefore if a tenant ends a tenancy by giving a landlord less than the required period of notice, or only verbal notice, or a written notice that does not comply with the Act, it is at the landlord's discretion whether to make a deduction from the deposit in respect of the outstanding rent appropriate to the notice period to which he/she was entitled by way of a valid Notice of Termination'

That is only about the validity of the termination notice.

BostonB

jsd1004 wrote: »

The shower was not broken the drain was blocked. Are tenants not liable for blocking drains? All showers will clog with hair if they are not cleaned periodically.

Not usually to the point of requiring a plumber...

bw wrote: »

...
- one shower had a drainage problem, it was clogged, or blocked. I asked them if it might just be something stuck, and to try some drain cleaner. That didn't work and admittedly I have not yet got a plumber out. This has gone on over 1-2 months...

odds_on

If they insist on claiming their deposit through PRTB, I presume you can enforce the lease and make them liable for the 2 remaining months rent AND the deposit.

You as landlord must try to re-let the property as quickly as possible after the tenants leave (for the PRTB you will need proof of your endeavours - advertizing, etc.). If you succeed in re-letting the property you can only claim for the period that the property was vacant.

Originally posted by Dovies:
Well OP according to the PRTB site you are only allowed to keep the rent owed to you from the deposit - 2 months. Unless I have read it wrong.

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Deposit%20Refund.doc

'Therefore if a tenant ends a tenancy by giving a landlord less than the required period of notice, or only verbal notice, or a written notice that does not comply with the Act, it is at the landlord's discretion whether to make a deduction from the deposit in respect of the outstanding rent appropriate to the notice period to which he/she was entitled by way of a valid Notice of Termination'

The above only applies to a Part 4 tenancy (and a periodic tenancy) BUT NOT to a fixed term tenancy.
Too many people go to the PRTB website or the RTA 2004 and quote Part 4 laws (without realizing that there is a difference) when lease is a Fixed Term lease.

In a fixed term tenancy - which is the usually type of agreement - there is no right on either the tenant's side nor the landlord's side to terminate the agreement before the expiry date; that is why it is called a FIXED TERM.
The only way a tenant can legally get out of or break a fixed term agreement is as follows:
1. The only way to get out of a fixed term lease the tenant can assign the lease to another person who then takes over the remainder of the lease.
2. To break a fixed term lease, the landlord must have breached one his obligations - however, usually, the tenant must have informed the landlord of a problem AND given the landlord a reasonable time to rectify the breach. If the tenant has not given the land a reasonable time in which to rectify the problem, the problem may continue for a long time.
However, a GOOD landlord will see to the problem as quickly as possible (as often, failure to do so may affect his property more seriously)

Jagera

Did the handover this evening. I made it clear that they were not really in line to getting any of their deposit back, however I was willing to offer something just to close it off, and keep them happy.

They chose not to accept that, and to pursue it through the PRTB. It was amicable, and we parted ways on decent terms.

Whatever the PRTB decide will be OK with me.

But the main point as far as I am concerned, is all went well, no hassles, and we're both happy enough to go with the PRTB decision.

subway

thanks for your update Jagera, i know it may be some way off in the future, but can you please update the thread with the outcome?
there are many situations like this raised on boards and, when grey areas arise, we dont often have the chance to know the correct outcome.

the_syco

Jagera wrote: »

They chose not to accept that, and to pursue it through the PRTB. It was amicable, and we parted ways on decent terms.

Best change the locks anyway.

BostonB

The PRTB site has a list of decisions, but not outcomes, as in did either party pay up etc. Even so some better way of getting into the decisions would be useful.

Jagera

subway wrote: »

thanks for your update Jagera, i know it may be some way off in the future, but can you please update the thread with the outcome?
there are many situations like this raised on boards and, when grey areas arise, we dont often have the chance to know the correct outcome.

Yep, I'll update this thread when there's an outcome. Basically, their case is, I can only keep the deposit, when there's a loss of earnings. Mine is the fixed contract was cut short without a valid reason.. We'll see.

the_syco wrote: »

Best change the locks anyway.

Done. Alarm security code changed. New lock & latch on the shed. Also replaced the smoke alarms, filters in the extractor fan, clean & disinfect the fridge, carpets professionally cleaned, all walls painted, pressure washed the patio..

I aim to offer a good service, and with past tenants it has meant a good relationship, and ultimately the rent is paid and there is some pride in the house.

Anyway, stay tuned for a decision on the deposit. Could be a while though.

JustAThought

Something to consider. The SW may have given them / the cheating half the money for the deposit. She/they may be trying to pull a further fast one on the SW by getting it & then reapplying elsewhere.

You might express concern at their bring the address into bad repute & leaving an administrative burden on you; no doubt you will now have to deal with SW agents; or your property may be on an " alert" list with the SW; may make it difficult fir you in the future ( God Forbid) or more importantly at present for future tenants hoping to avail of SW services.

Did you have a lease & were you covered in terms of subletting/ extra tenants / extra occupiers/ applying fir SW restrictions/ changes to occupiers no. Of occupiers etc...
Might be something to learn from & amend

There's too many cheats out there.

Were you Registered with the prtb ?
I'd check with the SW re the deposit & who it was returnable to!!!

But homeless for Christmas? They must have been bad if they cut them off thou; no doubt he'll now just have to pay for his child and partner like honest people do; just Less money for beer so.





I'm sick of hearing stories about this kind of cheating the system.

Were you registered with