Cleanliness too much to expect in a First Rental?

plys

Hi,

In advance – Mods, feel free to move this if it is inappropriately placed.

I recently agreed to lease a house, paid a deposit, and agreed a handover date. I'm renting directly from the owner, ie no agent involved. She is registered with the PRTB but it is the first rental of her former PPR. She gave us a draft lease which she had copied from a 'friend' of hers who has several rental properties. When I say copied, she hadn't changed the address, the rent, the contents, and some of the conditions attached to the lease were not relevant/suitable. We asked her to update the lease and re-print it, which she agreed to do and have with her at handover.

At the point of us paying the deposit, she told us she would be moving out the week before our agreed handover date, and getting a cleaner in to clean the house from 'top to bottom'. Although she kept a dog, there was no discernible smell and the place appeared to be reasonably clean (we weren't down on our hands and knees looking for dirt..)

My wife and I took a half day from work on the Friday (the agreed handover date); we had been packing up for a week, had a van rented, and were basically ready to move in. We had also arranged for my parents, brother and his girlfriend to take half days to help us with the move.

I phoned to ensure she was ready to do the handover. I got a 'poor me' story about her landlord not being able to hand over the keys of the place she was moving into until 4pm that day - instead of the previous day as agreed (ie not the week before as we had previously been led to believe). Being ever-the-optimist, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. We had a good bit more stuff to pack up so it’s not like we were sitting around waiting for the keys.

So we gave her an extra 2 ½ hours, and then headed over to do the handover. She was still jamming stuff into the back of an already overloaded van. There was quite a bit of her stuff left in the house, which she promised would be collected later that afternoon (it was already almost 4pm). At this point we were eager to get going, so we didn’t pay much attention to the state of the place (our main concern was how we were going to move all of our stuff in past the large mattress in the hallway)...

There was no revised lease. A cleaner had not been brought in to clean the place ‘from top to bottom’, and she only left one key (there were three of us moving into the house). My landlady wrote me a ‘receipt’ for the first month’s rent on the back of half an envelope. There was a distinct smell in the house, mainly of dog but also of just DIRT.

She left and we got on with the business at hand – moving our stuff in. My wife and my mother stayed in the house to clean while the lads went to do the lifting. It soon became apparent to the women that the place was absolutely filthy. The tiles which had appeared to be grey were actually cream in colour. Similarly the carpets were filthy. The kitchen was reasonably clean, but I’m pretty sure that was because the oven etc was used pretty infrequently.

The ladies worked hard, but they were only able to do so much. We are looking at getting the floors professionally cleaned.

My question is this (and apologies for taking so long to get there…):
We are considering deducting the cost of this professional cleaning from next month’s rent. Is this something we are entitled to do?
Is it reasonable to expect the landlord to accept this?

Has anyone any similar experiences, and if so, what was the outcome for you?

Thanks for taking the time to read this – I am about to become a landlord myself, and can appreciate both sides of the argument – the difference being I would never expect someone to move into a place that was grotty and rotten.

Cheers

plys

Ray Palmer

No you are not entitled to deduct anything from the rent without express permission. You never hired a cleaner so no cost to you. Very few LL would even consider the idea. You should be getting a reduced trent due to a weeks delay but again you must ask.

plys

Thanks Ray - to clarify, I/we fully intend on having it out with the landlord before the next rent falls due. My question is more along the lines of whether we are being reasonable in our expectation that this cost should be borne by the landlord, or not

Ray Palmer

plys wrote: »

Thanks Ray - to clarify, I/we fully intend on having it out with the landlord before the next rent falls due. My question is more along the lines of whether we are being reasonable in our expectation that this cost should be borne by the landlord, or not

No cost were borne by you unless you got a cleaner in. I wouldn't consider it reasonable but then I wouldn't leave the place dirty. You can ask politely but pushing it would probably be a bad idea. The rent for the extra week certainly is an issue. Send it via e-mail/leter and don't rely on a conversation.

Victor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No cost were borne by you unless you got a cleaner in.

While no money may have changed hands time, effort and goodwill did.

sarahbro

Ray Palmer wrote: »

plys wrote: »

Thanks Ray - to clarify, I/we fully intend on having it out with the landlord before the next rent falls due. My question is more along the lines of whether we are being reasonable in our expectation that this cost should be borne by the landlord, or not

No cost were borne by you unless you got a cleaner in. I wouldn't consider it reasonable but then I wouldn't leave the place dirty. You can ask politely but pushing it would probably be a bad idea. The rent for the extra week certainly is an issue. Send it via e-mail/leter and don't rely on a conversation.

Maybe i'm reading it wrong but they want to get a cleaner in for the floors etc and then ask if it can be deducted from the rent - not deduct it without a cleaner?

plys

sarahbro wrote: »

Ray Palmer wrote: »

plys wrote: »

Thanks Ray - to clarify, I/we fully intend on having it out with the landlord before the next rent falls due. My question is more along the lines of whether we are being reasonable in our expectation that this cost should be borne by the landlord, or not

No cost were borne by you unless you got a cleaner in. I wouldn't consider it reasonable but then I wouldn't leave the place dirty. You can ask politely but pushing it would probably be a bad idea. The rent for the extra week certainly is an issue. Send it via e-mail/leter and don't rely on a conversation.

Maybe i'm reading it wrong but they want to get a cleaner in for the floors etc and then ask if it can be deducted from the rent - not deduct it without a cleaner?

Exactly, I suppose the right way to go about it would be to ask first, and agree the rent deduction before getting a cleaner in.

Have got a couple of quotes, 120 and 180. Not an extortionate burden to bear, but it's the principal of it...

scaryfairy

hi plys

i can really symphatise with you - wherever I/we rented, had to spend at least a day to clean. yuk, the filth you get in these places. I am so used to it by now that I wouldn't even say anything, just put up with it.

I only raised the issue once, the girl who moved out was just taking a ****. Mentioned it to the landlord as he happened to be there when I was scrubbing the bathroom. He suggested moving the date I moved in forward by 3 days, ie I would have had maybe €110's worth of "free" rent. I declined - it was enough that he acknowledged the fact but maybe you could ask/suggest something similar?

fro9etb8j5qsl2

scaryfairy wrote: »

hi plys

i can really symphatise with you - wherever I/we rented, had to spend at least a day to clean. yuk, the filth you get in these places. I am so used to it by now that I wouldn't even say anything, just put up with it.

I only raised the issue once, the girl who moved out was just taking a ****. Mentioned it to the landlord as he happened to be there when I was scrubbing the bathroom. He suggested moving the date I moved in forward by 3 days, ie I would have had maybe €110's worth of "free" rent. I declined - it was enough that he acknowledged the fact but maybe you could ask/suggest something similar?

3 days=110 euro of rent???:eek: was it the house from the apprentice??

scaryfairy

Addison Zealous Scraper wrote: »

3 days=110 euro of rent???:eek: was it the house from the apprentice??

30 days (1 month) = €1,100
3 days = €110

or am I missing something?

nb: Was in '09, S Dublin, was avg price. Now would be around €850 in same apt block

plys

scaryfairy wrote: »

hi plys

i can really symphatise with you - wherever I/we rented, had to spend at least a day to clean. yuk, the filth you get in these places. I am so used to it by now that I wouldn't even say anything, just put up with it.

I only raised the issue once, the girl who moved out was just taking a ****. Mentioned it to the landlord as he happened to be there when I was scrubbing the bathroom. He suggested moving the date I moved in forward by 3 days, ie I would have had maybe €110's worth of "free" rent. I declined - it was enough that he acknowledged the fact but maybe you could ask/suggest something similar?

Thanks scaryfairy. Maybe that's something that would be agreeable to all. From my point of view, having rent day after salary gets paid would be much safer... those extra few days would be the difference..

Fittle

I am of the opinion that you should pick your battles in life and this wouldn't be a battle I would choose to fight. You have just moved in and to start trying to renegotiate your first months rent based on the cleanliness of the accommodation, might not be the best way to begin a landlord/tenant relationship. None of us has a clue what's around the corner and you don't know when or if you might want something from her...

To me, she sounds like a very unorganised person...I'd suck it up.

I moved into some pretty grotty flats back in the day - but I just cleaned and decorated them to make them to my own standards.

plys

Thanks Fittle, another good point well made. I wouldn't consider myself a neat freak by any means, but I can't stand a dirty home. I suppose I just can't understand how someone could live in such filth (remember, it was her own home before we moved in...)...

The cost to get the carpets cleaned etc wouldn't be onerous by any means; and as such I think we are going to get it done anyway, regardless of whether the landlord contributes to the cost or not.

But the principle of the matter is driving me to have it out with the landlord... This is one of a number of niggling things which has left us with an overall bad feeling upon moving into the place.

Fittle

Moving home in itself, is terribly stressful - I moved way too many times back in the day, and found it took me weeks to chill out - perhaps your mood is exacerbated because of the actual move - and this is just adding to it.

I can't understand how anyone could leave a place in such a bad state either - but as I said, she sounds very disorganised and obviously her standards for cleanliness aren't what they should/could be...if it were me, I'd say nothing and move on. But perhaps that's just my relatively good mood today...;) and the fact that I avoid confrontation where possible.

plys

Not too fond of confrontation myself (who is??), but the missus is a different kettle of fish. She's been banging on about it since Friday; I just want a quiet life!!

I like the phrase 'Pick your battles' - maybe I can use that to calm her down. Then again, it might send her off on one again... ;-)

Victor

Perhaps agree something specific, like the landlord paying to have the carpets shampooed / cleaned professionally.

Take photos.

awec

I was in a similar situation. We moved into a house that was being rented by a letting agency. The previous tenants had moved out the day before we moved in and literally NOTHING was clean.

The master bedroom was probably the dirtiest thing I have ever seen in my life. There was a glass hidden in the wardrobe that was literally full to the brim with fungus as someone had thrown some waste food in it and evidently left it there for months.

We cleaned it, and didn't kick up too much of a fuss. Mainly because I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of chasing it all up.

However, when our agreement was up and we decided to move out the letting agency said we had to get in a cleaner (it actually said the house had to be professionally cleaned in the contract - something that clearly didn't happen before we moved in).

I phoned them up (pretty livid at this point) and said that under no circumstances would I be forking out for a cleaner to come in and clean the place. I said that I would leave the house clean, in that I would hoover, dust and clean the bathrooms myself, but I am not getting anyone in to steam the carpets and the furniture (most of the stains were done by previous tenants).

This was ok in the end, I think they understood. They phoned me a few weeks after I moved out and thanked me for leaving the house tidy etc.

The_Honeybadger

Moved twice in the past year myself and both times the places I was moving into were horrifying. The first place had the stench of two large dogs, and on top of that the ll had left alot of their stuff on the place. My wife spent 3 to 4 days cleaning and we had to replace all the curtains as they stank of dog, it was a lovely house in the end but the filth was something else. Second house wasnt as bad but the oven was filthy and it was very badly kitted out, horrible furniture, no dressers etc. Still after the agent to get some very basic stuff. He would promise the moon and stars and deliver nothing, a real cowboy. Wouldn't have moved in here but we were in dire need of a place quickly due to a change in circumstances and it was the best of a very bad lot in the area. Ireland could really do with a rental standards authority that has some teeth and can force landlords to get their places in order or face fines etc. Every place I have ever rented has had a host of problems like the above but maybe I've just been unlucky.

Neyite

I have always cleaned any place I rented before I moved in, and put my own matteress protectors on the beds even if ones were there already. I also would wash every dish and cup in the place, before I could consider it home.

I am far from a neat freak, but the thought of standing in a shower tray where anyone might have stood barefooted before me or them barely rinsing a cup (wary of verrucas and coldsores) made me feel the place was not mine.

The place I am in now was a new build, so we were taking the plastic off the beds and stickers off the furniture it was all brand new, but I still cleaned the loos and the rest of the place because builders probably used the toilet and cups/kettle at some stage and there was a fair bit of dust still which was normal for a new build.

It does sound like yours was left filthy though, so for that I would definatly mention it to the landlady and say how annoyed your wife was, see will she offer a sweetner such as a few days free rent or whatever, but I would agree with Fittle, choose your battles wisely.

plys

Thanks for your replies. I must be pretty green, in that I reckon I expected too much. Handed over the keys for our place on Friday evening, and I must say it wasn't spotless, although it was pretty damn clean!

Herself is a different story though, she had rented for >10yrs before we moved in together, by all accounts she rented some hovels too.. surely she should have had more realistic expectations?

I suppose, given the fact that we were the first tenants of what had been the landlord's home, we expected that the place would be somewhat homely...

Anyway - we got a professional carpet cleaner in on Saturday, and it has made a HUGE difference. Spent the whole weekend cleaning too, and it is turning out to be a lovely home. So I think I will suck it up for the sake of €80....