Illegal Downloading

lord lucan

A subject raised regularly in the Metallica Superthread due to their pursuit of Napster. Just read an interview with Scott Ian where he lets fly about illegal downloading and the consequences he feels should apply to those who do it. It's very vitriolic in tone,downright nasty almost.

Personally i buy my music. I figure its down to being from a generation who could only get music by purchasing it. Sure we traded copies of tapes but once i had the money i'd usually go out and buy the proper version.

NT:On to Worship Music, your latest album. It entered the charts pretty high, at number 12. It's your highest chart debut in 20 years. At a time when so many people are struggling to sell records, why do you think your band and this album in particular are doing so well right now?

SI:Well first, you've got to put things in perspective. We did great above and beyond expectations for 2011, at least my own expectations. With the way things are now and people stealing music and not actually buying records, it's just the way it is. So the fact that we sold 30,000 the first week and entered at number 12 was awesome -- for 2011.

If you put that in 2001, we would have sold probably 250,000 the first week and been number 12. Or let's say 20 years ago, if you want to put things in perspective, in 1993 Sound of White Noise entered the charts at number seven, and it sold like 110,000 copies. So a lot of it has to do, of course, with what other records come out the same week as you and all that.

But to put it in perspective sales-wise, it just sucks that 30,000 is considered a huge success in 2011. It's a double-edged sword because on one hand, it's like, "Woo-hoo, we did great," but then it's also like, "Yeah, but how many other people stole the record and you should have sold 150,000 copies this first week?"

NT:do you think a lot of your fans in fact stole the record, or --

SI:I don't think; I know they did. It's the way it works these days. People can get the records for free, whether they're an actual fan or just a casual person who just wants to check something out. It's not a case of going out and checking out music. Now you can steal it, because the internet makes that possible for people. People have this sense of entitlement now where they think music is free, and that's the way it is, whether or not they even realize they're stealing it.

Before the internet, the only way to steal music was to walk into a music store and physically walk out with something, and you were stealing, and you knew it. You knew, unless you're a ****ing maniac, that there was a consequence. If you got caught, you were going to get in trouble.

On the internet, there is no consequence for stealing. Nobody gets in trouble for stealing music; nobody gets in trouble for stealing movies. Illegal downloading has no consequence. So until there is a consequence, it's going to happen more and more and more, and people are going to see less and less original and good content from the record industry and movie industry.

NT:I've noticed you've gone back and forth on Twitter with some people making a devil's advocate argument that --

SI:There is no argument. I'm not even going to get into that conversation. You're stealing! It's stealing -- that's what it is. It's not free for us to make these records. These records are on sale in many, many places where you can pay your money to buy the product that we are selling. Anything outside of that is stealing. There is no conversation to be had.

There's no, "Well, I just wanted to check it out, and then I liked it so I bought the record." I don't give a ****. It's stealing. Everyone can say that, "I just wanted to check it out" or "There's no way for me to get music where I live." That's bull****. It's ****ing bull****! I've been doing this for way too long. I sold records in the '80s and '90s before there was an internet, and no one seemed to have a problem going out and buying a **** ton of records back then. The whole record industry has collapsed because people are stealing. That's the end of the story.

NT:do you think that you would have to tour less or do things differently if people were buying more and stealing less? In other words, have you had to change your business model as a band to account for it?

SI:No. We've always been a touring band, even in the '80s, from day one, that's what we do. If anything, that side of it -- because you still can't steal a ticket to come see us. That side of it is still there for us, because you can't replicate a live show. I don't care how many videos you watch on YouTube, it's not the same as being there. Thank God for that.

NT:What do you think the consequence should be for illegal downloading?

SI:You lose your internet. That's it, no more internet for you. Seriously! Like you drive drunk, you lose the privilege of driving. You download illegally, you lose the privilege of having the internet. The punishment fits the crime. Why these service providers don't stop the torrent sites and put a consequence on this, I have no idea. Everybody complains about the trillions of dollars being lost, but nobody does anything about it. Believe me, if I could do something about it, I would.

NT:Some service providers are starting to send cease-and-desist letters, but it seems like they have to get subpoenaed by the RIAA first.

SI:You know what, until the person sitting behind their laptop, downloading free music and movies and porn, until that person -- OK, picture this. Picture the guy just sitting at his laptop downloading all this free ****, and all of a sudden his connection goes off. He's off the internet, and he starts pushing buttons and checks his Wi-Fi and all that, and all of a sudden he's not connected anymore.

That's when it will stop, when people actually know that there will be a consequence for what they're doing. Throwing people in jail isn't the answer, and even fining them and all that, I don't think that's the answer either. Just stop their access, because these people live on the internet, and that's all they care about. So stop their internet access and they'll stop stealing.

http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/countygrind/2011/11/qa_anthraxs_scott_ian_on_worsh.php

Malice

There's quite a lot wrong with what he's saying but since I'm in work (and therefore supposed to be working ) I'll just quote the bits that jump out at me.

On the internet, there is no consequence for stealing. Nobody gets in trouble for stealing music; nobody gets in trouble for stealing movies. Illegal downloading has no consequence.

Jammie Thomas-Rasset amongst many others begs to differ.

Why these service providers don't stop the torrent sites and put a consequence on this, I have no idea.

Why is is up to the service providers to do this in the first place? Does he realise that torrent sites don't only offer illegal downloads, that they do in fact have legitimate uses?

NIBBS

Look I can understand his frustrations with how things are now, but his arguments are flawed and his comparisons are certainly not like for like, I'm always amazed as to how nobody has every pointed a finger at either the Record Companies nor the Retail Outlets for the currently landscape - Scott correctly mentions that 20 years ago they sold 110k copies of SOWN but he neglects to mention the huge difference in the prices that CDs went to over the period of time, look here for example, HMV/VIRGIN were selling normal CD's for mid €20 if not higher, so Scotts idea that they have their product for sale all over the place is fine, but if retail outlets took some of the blame for blatant profiteering may things wouldn't have gotten to where they are..........I still buy CD's, whenever I have money (have 20 odd winging their way to me now) and I'm a member of legal download sites, but I'm not prepared to spend a lot of cash these days on a product I know nothing about, if I hear it and like it I'll get it, if I hear it and don't I won't.......call it what he likes it's a culture now, there are plenty of people that will not buy music or movies anymore, and I don't agree with that either, but the focus with regards to how a band makes money has definitely shifted to live shows - that's fine for bands like U2 or Metallica, but smaller bands aren't going to see the same returns.....it's an argument that will rumble on, but I'm not sure where the solution is....

scudzilla

I'm feelin all guilty now

Nailz

scudzilla wrote: »

I'm feelin all guilty now

Jake The Fat Ma

Anthrax havn't had a good album in over 20 years so whats he moaning about, he wants people to pay for rubbish.

He is just peed of because Meatloaf is his father in law.

viadah

Most bands make their money on touring and merchandise, it's the 'business' side of 'showbusiness' that will ultimately suffer more, because they're the ones who make significantly more from album sales. Obviously there will be exceptions, the more pedigree (read: age, basically) a band has, the better a deal I'm sure they can get.

It's rare to hear an unsigned gigging band complaining about illegal downloading.

seachto7

Now, the album is a way to promote the tour, in the past, the tour was used to promote the album.
I agree with him to a degree. Musicians who spend a lot on recording hours, good gear, mixing, mastering, distribution, artwork, promotion online and offline deserve something for their time put into a product. Why shouldn't they. Would anyone here work for free? Me neither.

I also detest people who feel they are entitled to take music for free, and then whinge when the acts they take said music from don't come to Ireland. Maybe they can't get time off work to tour, as they are making f**kall off album sales to go full time at it???

Lots of people do not realise the time and effort that goes into making an album, the amount of versions of one song, the amount of takes, overdubs, mixing hours. Musicians fully deserve to make money off selling an album. But only if it's good of course, and why not.

However, it is how it is now, and people will just download music for free. I think most acts need to write off X amount of potential sales to illegal downloads, and touring is where it's at really, as well as merchandise at gigs, and getting your song on an ad on tv or radio is now a good way to make some royalties, and there's nothing "sell out" about it. It's a necessary evil, as a certain age bracket of people think they are entitled to get an album for free. I suppose if it's up online for free, why pay for it.

I support the bands I am into, most of those bands wouldn't be big bands or loaded, so I think could do with the support. I especially support new music, but I fear it's all just pi55ing in the wind......

Nephilim Wolf

I have to agree with most of what has been said. I do download albums mainly to see are they any good or not. I don't like taking chances on albums anymore because it might turn out to be a complete waste of money. I seen 'Falling Deeper' by Anathema in HMV recently, but thankfully I didn't buy it, because when I downloaded it, it wasn't what I thought it would be like. I also hate albums that have only a couple of class songs and the rest of the album is forgettable. Thankfully albums like Amon Amarth's new album 'Surtur Rising', 'The Great Mass' by Septic Flesh, 'The Begining of Times' by Amorphis, 'Khaos Legions' by Arch Enemy etc are really excellent albums. I bought Surtur Rising' digipac by Amon Amarth for 15 and it was a class purchase. I also placed an order for 'The Great Mass' digipac by Septic Flesh on amazon.com so I can't wait for that.

iroced

As much as I can understand his reaction, he's being naive and/or provocative when he says

Why these service providers don't stop the torrent sites and put a consequence on this, I have no idea. Everybody complains about the trillions of dollars being lost, but nobody does anything about it.

That's how internet is being advertised. The speed of you connection, your download/upload speed. And what about the computer industry? Are they losing money? Are they not a party to that "stealing" by advertising and selling computers with huger and huger hard drive capacity, huger and huger external drives/memory sticks/smartphones capacity, faster and faster CD/DVD burner, etc...etc...

Scott Ian: I sold records in the '80s and '90s before there was an internet, and no one seemed to have a problem going out and buying a **** ton of records back then. The whole record industry has collapsed because people are stealing. That's the end of the story.

I was a kid in the 80ies and started to buy music in the early 90ies. Going to major or second hand music stores etc...etc... So I'm very much attached to the "object". Vinyl, tape, CD, DVD etc... Adding all of these, I must own something like a 1000 albums. But, I'm buying less and less albums now.

There are a few critical things he is forgetting here. First, he's not mentioning (and I've rarely seen that mentioned) that DVDs are in compettition with Cds (and are much more attractive than VHS) where 20 years ago you'd only have CDs to choose from.
Then, back in the 80ies/90ies, the cost of living was way cheaper and salaries were not that less important. I remember that back in my south of France, you could get new releases for 80 Francs (12 €), older releases for 60-70 F (~10-11€) and generally nothing was above 100 F (15€). Today, this is impossible. You go to a music store and the release promotional price is 17/18€ and normal price 23-25€. Cost of living has dramatically increased and not the salaries. The only alternative is to use the Amazon marketplace. So the Record Companies and the Retail Outlets have a MAJOR responsibility in the fan's behaviour towards downloading (I'm deliberately not talking about people who download for fun as they would not buy the music anyway).
I'll always remember, a couple of years ago, some friends of mine (from the French progressive Metal band Spheric Universe Experience) got their new album out for 10€ on Amazon from the label (Replica) and it was at 20€ at LaFnac (French equivalent of Virgin or HMV). So that means 10€ for the artists and all the people involved around (album design, mixing, production etc...) and as much for the shop that sells it (even though they do no advertisement for it at all). This is more than a shame. And these people are the real ones that are killing music.

To finish with that long answer, I'd just say that the music industry has disgusted many music fans and if tomorrow, we can't download any music (and I'm not talking about the "stupid" legal download - actually what a way of killing it! Where's the passion, where's the flavour of opening the album, discovering the art, etc...etc... in that digital mecanical "music"?), I feel that some (many?) of us will just slowly but surely "give up music" (if we can't afford it we can't afford it, there are more vital things in life after all)...


And to really conclude, the exact same assessment can be done about cinema.

LH Pathe

Listening posts just don't cut it, think I'll try before I find I couldn't buy anyways n just keep the fücker

darconio

Too many factors to be taken into consideration in this topic.
In the 80' there were about 10/20 famous groups worth to mention and I gladly waited generally 2 years to buy their new release.
It was normal to buy a vinyl I remember I used to pay the equivalent of 8 max 10 euro for them.
Then the major labels started to smell the business and begun to sign every group that could play any type of cr@p, in the early 90' the amount of musicians signed by a record company multiplied, the amount of clones was unbelievable.
I used to be an avid collectors of vinyl but my passion was killed when I blindly started to buy unknown bands to discover lately that they were just piece of junk or clones.
Many group out there stopped playing for the pleasure of simply doing it but instead it became just a gold rush.
I warmly welcome the illegal download because you can decide later if the album is worth to be bought or not.
Mr Scott Ian should go back to the studio and produce an album that kick a$$ rather than living on the memories of what they were or whine about the illegal downloads, in the end they aren't certainly less rich or they rarely had a concert where the venue wasn't fully booked.
These guys are a good example of the kind of efforts needed nowadays to produce something credible but still keeping it affordable for everybody.
I genuinely feel sorry for the guys in the records store (into the void, sound cellar) but as it was said before they would have a better business if they were allowed to sell cd for their real value.

Motley Crue

"Well, I just wanted to check it out, and then I liked it so I bought the record." I don't give a ****. It's stealing. Everyone can say that, "I just wanted to check it out" or "There's no way for me to get music where I live." That's bull****. It's ****ing bull****! I've been doing this for way too long. I sold records in the '80s and '90s before there was an internet, and no one seemed to have a problem going out and buying a **** ton of records back then. The whole record industry has collapsed because people are stealing. That's the end of the story.

So you're saying it's stealing?:D

You can imagine the reviewer just saying "sit down Scott, this is an audio interview, nobody can see you" before Scott sits down, clears his throat, and then mutters "it's still ****ing stealin" under his breath one last time

I agree with him. Not 100% mind, because some records have to be distributed free, whether under the watchful eye of labels or through the streaming process of MySpace (which just causes people to record the album to Audacity anyway) it's got to find the fan online....but yes, if illegal downloading didn't exist my life wouldn't change much and I'd still listen to relatively the same amount of music - might take me longer to afford the CDs or (god help us if they bring them back) cassette tapes but I'd manage

I don't need an 80GB IPod filled with music, I struggle to fill a 2GB MP3 Player, before I'm asking myself what new songs I can change the old ones for.