Airtricity danger with energy monitor

elec

Do Airtricity have a clue when it comes to electrical safety ?. Am i right in thinking that Airtricity are suggesting that home owners connect an energy monitor to a cable inside an ESB meter cabinet. Surley as an electricity supplier they know that there are no electrical safety devices to prevent against electrical shock and subsequent death inside an ESB meter cabinet. Why are ESB letting this happen ?. It is both dangerous and irresponsible of Airtricity to advertise these devices on TV.

stimpson

elec wrote: »

Do Airtricity have a clue when it comes to electrical safety ?. Am i right in thinking that Airtricity are suggesting that home owners connect an energy monitor to a cable inside an ESB meter cabinet. Surley as an electricity supplier they know that there are no electrical safety devices to prevent against electrical shock and subsequent death inside an ESB meter cabinet. Why are ESB letting this happen ?. It is both dangerous and irresponsible of Airtricity to advertise these devices on TV.

As I said on the other thread, the device clamps around the insulated cable. No need to strip back cable or do anything dangerous. It uses the property of electromagnetic induction. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_induction

elec

Stimpson it works on a single cable only. What do you suggest to do with a twin cable and outer sheath ?

M cebee

i'm not familiar with them
but doesn't sound like a great idea if they are encouraging customers to try to clamp the tails or any cable in the cabinet

Bruthal

There is very little that is dangerous about it, its a clamp that loosly fits around one of the cables, live being the better one. It just measures the current exactly the same as a clamp ammeter, through induction, so is not a true watt meter, but assumes 220v, 230v or 240v etc depending on the users settings.

But it is of little danger. I fitted one here, but put the clamp around the live just before the main fuse in the DB so the measuring unit is in the house, but out at the meter would be safer for the general user.

M cebee

customers trying to clamps tails in the cabinet or DB board sounds dodgy to me

having said that i haven't seen them

elec

see http://www.airtricity.com/ie/home/products/electricity-and-gas/

It looks like you must clamp it onto a meter tail.
Robbie 7730 How does an ordinary person know a cable is live ?. The ESB meter box does not have electrical protection and i suggest it is not a place to tell people to mess with. People will have to pull at wiring to get the clamp on. A cable can easily pull away from a connection. Fuse boards are also dangerous places for non trained people.

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

see http://www.airtricity.com/ie/home/products/electricity-and-gas/

It looks like you must clamp it onto a meter tail.
Robbie 7730 How does an ordinary person know a cable is live ?. The ESB meter box does not have electrical protection and i suggest it is not a place to tell people to mess with. People will have to pull at wiring to get the clamp on. A cable can easily pull away from a connection. Fuse boards are also dangerous places for non trained people.

Doesnt really have to be the live one, it will work just as well on the neutral.

If the connection is loose enough to pull away, it would have been burned out within days in the average house.

You dont clamp it onto the cable, it loosely fits around it.

And i didnt suggest putting it into the DB.

elec

Robbie.
Can we agree to differ ?
I think anybody with electrical training will realise the real dangers when working with live supply cables close to meters. One error will result in a fatal accident.

ted1

I can't see any real danger, your just put a clamp on rogowski coil on a insulated wire.

Elec have you actually seen one of these?

Pete67

I've fitted several, I'm a trained engineer, and in my opinion it is no more dangerous than opening the meter cabinet to check the meter reading. Or should that be limited to professionals too?

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

Robbie.
Can we agree to differ ?
I think anybody with electrical training will realise the real dangers when working with live supply cables close to meters. One error will result in a fatal accident.

What error would lead to a fatal accident?

Id be surprised if you have much electrical experience, but i could be wrong.

That doesnt mean you cant be right though, if that is the case.

elec

can i ask all of you experts
- what do you suggest if the tails have an outer sheath and that sheath is not adequately stripped back to put a CT onto it - this is common ?
- how will an ordinary 'non trained' person distinguish between the ESB supply cables and the meter tails. ?.
- How does a non-trained person distinguish the correct cables where you have an additional timswitch fitted or second meter ?

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

can i ask all of you experts
- what do you suggest if the tails have an outer sheath and that sheath is not adequately stripped back to put a CT onto it - this is common ?

There are nearly always single cores available at the meter position.

- how will an ordinary 'non trained' person distinguish between the ESB supply cables and the meter tails. ?.

Either ones can be fitted with the sensor. Although fitted to the live out from the meter to the DB would be preferable. Neutral will work, although any earth faults downstream of the monitor would reduce its readings if fitted to the neutral. But this wouldnt be a realistic problem in general.

- How does a non-trained person distinguish the correct cables where you have an additional timswitch fitted or second meter ?

Id say many people responsible for the bill would know which meter is which. Get it wrong, and they should still likely survive their error.

Im not sure what the esb`s take on it all is. They normally dont like anything in the cabinet besides metering and associated apparatus.

Fluffybums

No stripping required. You'd have to work at it to put yourself in danger.
elec you clearly have not seen one of these things.
Have an Owl monitor myself and I'd be extremely nervous about fiddling with electricity especially the main supply to the house, but fitting (sounds more complicated that it is) is definitely a DIY job, unless you are blind or lack even the smallest iota of common sense.

elec

Fluffybums i will finish on this !
PVC/PVC tails are common practice with many years. Sometimes the outer sheath is stripped back and some times its not.
Also on old wiring installations cable insulation is dodgy.
Dont judge every home by what may appear easy or safe in your home. Personally I will not advise my mum to fit one !

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

Personally I will not advise my mum to fit one !

It sounds like you best not risk fitting one yourself either.

elec

Fluffybums wrote: »

No stripping required. You'd have to work at it to put yourself in danger.
elec you clearly have not seen one of these things.
Have an Owl monitor myself and I'd be extremely nervous about fiddling with electricity especially the main supply to the house, but fitting (sounds more complicated that it is) is definitely a DIY job, unless you are blind or lack even the smallest iota of common sense.

Pvc/pvc tails are common practice for many years - sometimes the outer sheath is stripped back and some times not. DONT judge other homes by the way your meter might be installed. Personally i will not ask my mum to fit one !

2011

I think there is a greater risk of injury/death from changing a bulb, replacing a fuse in a DB or installing a plug on a lead than this. Yet the "untrained public" are often expected to do this.

Personally I don't trust my mother with the remote control for the TV, but that's another story:D

M cebee

is it always easy to clamp a conductor in the cabinet
i'm not so sure

elec

2011. I think you miss my point. Changing light bulbs, plugtops etc are downstream of the Distribution board which has protection devices (mcbs, rcd) - these are deemed adequate electrical protection in situations where unforseen faults/errors can happen. Fitting devices in the meter cabinet , which is upstream of the DB, presents additional risks as it is in an unprotected electrical zone.
The correct place to fit an energy monitor is in the DB and in my opinion this should only be done by somebody who knows what they are at.

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

2011. I think you miss my point. Changing light bulbs, plugtops etc are downstream of the Distribution board which has protection devices (mcbs, rcd) - these are deemed adequate electrical protection in situations where unforseen faults/errors can happen. Fitting devices in the meter cabinet , which is upstream of the DB, presents additional risks as it is in an unprotected electrical zone.
The correct place to fit an energy monitor is in the DB and in my opinion this should only be done by somebody who knows what they are at.

The risk of a fatal electric shock is no greater with a 63 amp fuse upstream, than with a 10 amp MCB upstream. The meter cabinet has a 63 amp cutout before any cables that might be fitted with the CT. The concentric cable has no real protection before it(transformer fuses). But how can you receive a shock from that?

In reality, to receive a dangerous level fatal shock most often requires live to neutral/earth contact with one in each hand. How would that be managed in this fitting of the unit? You seem to be avoiding giving any answers so i wont expect any here.

I think you have materialised a high risk where no major risk really exists.

M cebee

thats the way it would seem to me

the cabinet is not a suitable location for one of these-assumimg it can even be fitted over a conductor

failing that the consumer would have to remove DB cover

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

is it always easy to clamp a conductor in the cabinet
i'm not so sure

Id say in the vast majority of cases it is. But you`d easily know the answer to that as much as anyone here, it probably would be difficult in some. I wouldnt be surprised if the esb were not overly happy with it though. I dont know what their view on it would be.

People certainly shouldnt be pulling out of cables in the cabinet. But these clamps are simple to fit.

2011

elec wrote: »

2011. I think you miss my point. Changing light bulbs, plugtops etc are downstream of the Distribution board which has protection devices (mcbs, rcd) - these are deemed adequate electrical protection in situations where unforseen faults/errors can happen.

If someone changes a fuse in an older type domestic DB the upstream fuse will most lightly be 63A. MCB and RCD protection will not come into the equation. It is generally accepted that 50mA has the potential to kill. If the 63A fuses blows as a result of someone getting a shock, you can be quite sure that it will be an undertaker rather than a doctor that you require. To the individual getting a shock it will not feel like a protected zone. Remember there are exposed live conductive parts when changing a fuse (except for more modern switch fuses).

This is why I feel that this represents a greater risk to an untrained person.

Lights are generally not protected by RCDs and are normally on 10A type B MCBs in a domestic installation.

Fitting devices in the meter cabinet , which is upstream of the DB, presents additional risks as it is in an unprotected electrical zone.

In my opinion the overall riesk is reduced because at no time is the installer exposed to live conductive parts. In the 2 examples I gave above they could be i.e. the lighting circuit could be switched on, and if they stick their finger into the fuse holder there is also a live conductive part.

The correct place to fit an energy monitor is in the DB and in my opinion this should only be done by somebody who knows what they are at.

I can see your point, but how far should this be taken? Speaking as someone with experience and training that has fitted these units I would think that the risk is insignifficant compared to the examples I have given.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

thats the way it would seem to me

the cabinet is not a suitable location for one of these-assumimg it can even be fitted over a conductor

failing that the consumer would have to remove DB cover

Yea i wouldnt recommend the consumer unit way unless there is an MCB fitted in the cabinet, which in most cases there is not.

I see little danger in it myself in the cabinet, and think the cabinet should be usable for this device, as its a metering device. But thats a different arguement, this one is about the danger to a user fitting it.

The clamp easily fits over the 16 square conductors.

elec

Guys this will be my last comment !

I totally agree with you that old fuse boards can also be dangerous - thankfully most homes have now got mcb's and rcd's etc. The dangers you highlight should not be used to justify clamps upstream of the DB. Of coursre all wiring around meters is insulated but people will pull at that wiring to fit the clamp. All it takes is one 'untrained' person to pull that little bit too much !.

M cebee

seems obvious to me anyhow

is there always enough of pvc grey stripped back to clamp safely-no

is cabinet suitable for consumer equipment-dont think so

should consumer remove db cover to fit clamp-no

saorviewseeker

Fluffybums wrote: »

No stripping required. You'd have to work at it to put yourself in danger.
elec you clearly have not seen one of these things.
Have an Owl monitor myself and I'd be extremely nervous about fiddling with electricity especially the main supply to the house, but fitting (sounds more complicated that it is) is definitely a DIY job, unless you are blind or lack even the smallest iota of common sense.

Agree, it is a DIY job and made in such a way as to make it totally safe to install.

That aside, I also have an Owl Monitor and am looking for advice on on how to include the standing charge in the set-up. Mine is set-up for the correct voltage, and the unit price. This alone doesn't give the correct total cost charge as it is net of the standing charge. So, can anyone advise how to include this in the set-up.

Bruthal

saorviewseeker wrote: »

Agree, it is a DIY job and made in such a way as to make it totally safe to install.

That aside, I also have an Owl Monitor and am looking for advice on on how to include the standing charge in the set-up. Mine is set-up for the correct voltage, and the unit price. This alone doesn't give the correct total cost charge as it is net of the standing charge. So, can anyone advise how to include this in the set-up.

Why would you need the monitor to include the standing charge? This is a fixed charge of around €20 you just add onto the units consumed.

saorviewseeker

robbie7730 wrote: »

Why would you need the monitor to include the standing charge? This is a fixed charge of around €20 you just add onto the units consumed.

Well it's actually more if you look at my last bill below. There are two standing charges which don't make sence to me and will be making enquiries to Airtricity to-morrow. There is also a PSO Levy and Vat to be added on so thats an extra complication. Yes I agree, you could add all these at the end of the month but that defeats the purpose of this unit.

Smartsaver 24hr 349.00 0.1340 46.76
Smartsaver 24hr 96.00 0.1520 14.59
Standing Charge P1 Dom Urban 5.00 0.3201 1.60
Standing Charge P1 Dom Urban 51.00 0.2850 14.54
PSO Levy 2.00 8 2.7300 5.46

VAT 13.5% 11.20

When I got this, it was my understanding that I could at a glance see what it was costing per day, per week etc. The unit even goes further and gives a monthly, quarterly, yearly cost. It does exactly that if all you have to factor in is the cost per unit of electricity. However, it doesn't factor in the Vat and the PSO charge; two charges I didn't think about when I posted my query. So, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't do what it says on the tin unless you can factor in the standing charge, PSO charge and VAT. I would love someone to prove me wrong.