Airtricity danger with energy monitor

Bruthal

saorviewseeker wrote: »

Well it's actually more if you look at my last bill below. There are two standing charges which don't make sence to me and will be making enquiries to Airtricity to-morrow. There is also a PSO Levy and Vat to be added on so thats an extra complication. Yes I agree, you could add all these at the end of the month but that defeats the purpose of this unit.

Smartsaver 24hr 349.00 0.1340 46.76

Smartsaver 24hr 96.00 0.1520 14.59
Standing Charge P1 Dom Urban 5.00 0.3201 1.60
Standing Charge P1 Dom Urban 51.00 0.2850 14.54
PSO Levy 2.00 8 2.7300 5.46

VAT 13.5% 11.20

When I got this, it was my understanding that I could at a glance see what it was costing per day, per week etc. The unit even goes further and gives a monthly, quarterly, yearly cost. It does exactly that if all you have to factor in is the cost per unit of electricity. However, it doesn't factor in the Vat and the PSO charge; two charges I didn't think about when I posted my query. So, as far as I am concerned, it doesn't do what it says on the tin unless you can factor in the standing charge, PSO charge and VAT. I would love someone to prove me wrong.

It does exactly what it says on the tin. Its an energy monitor. It tells you what energy you have used, and what is being used at any given time. If you can show where the box or tin says it displays your electricity bill, then i`l agree it doesnt do what it says on the tin then.

It also can easily factor in vat.
Put 16 cent into the cost section of the unit settings per unit for ex vat, or 18.38 cent per unit incl vat.

The 2 different standing charges on bill are likely because the standing charge rate increased on 1st of october, so the bill will have 2 seperate prices for this, the pre 1st oct part, and post 1st oct part. It will be €20 per bill now. Or precisely 32.84 cent per day, or €19.70 incl vat for a 60 day bill.

It seems exceptionaly simple to be honest, to understand that an electricity meter or monitor does exactly that, monitors electricity usage. Adding on €20 standing charge and €3.65 for the PSO will give you a bill price, but to tell exactly when the meter will be read is not too easy, or if it will be estimated.

So set the unit to 18.38 per unit, and that will be your units including vat on it.

Add €23 to this to get bill. If thats too difficult to manage then nothing anyone can say will make it simpler.

They are simply a monitor to give people an idea of what usage they have, and what appliances use etc. It is not an electricity meter, nor does it say anywhere, that it displays an electricity bill including standing and government charges.

Rocky868

Fitting a CT clamp in a metering cabinet is not a DIY job and it is iresponsible of so called 'electrical' experts to provide advice to the contrary.

Have a look at the 'National Code of Practice for Customer Interface' . see page VII - Item 3 - 'Enclosures for metering equipment' . "ESBN equipment should only be fitted in an outdoor metering cabinet". This document is available on the web.


Another important diagram is on Page 4 which shows the typical layout of a modern domestic meter cabinet. If the tails are neatly fitted then there is no room for fitting a CT clamp without stripping back the outer pvc sheath - which, as you can imagine, is highly dangerous on a live cable.

Bruthal

Rocky868 wrote: »

Fitting a CT clamp in a metering cabinet is not a DIY job and it is iresponsible of so called 'electrical' experts to provide advice to the contrary.

Have a look at the 'National Code of Practice for Customer Interface' . see page VII - Item 3 - 'Enclosures for metering equipment' . "ESBN equipment should only be fitted in an outdoor metering cabinet". This document is available on the web.


Another important diagram is on Page 4 which shows the typical layout of a modern domestic meter cabinet. If the tails are neatly fitted then there is no room for fitting a CT clamp without stripping back the outer pvc sheath - which, as you can imagine, is highly dangerous on a live cable.

Who called us electrical experts?

Tails142

M cebee wrote: »

seems obvious to me anyhow

is there always enough of pvc grey stripped back to clamp safely-no

is cabinet suitable for consumer equipment-dont think so

should consumer remove db cover to fit clamp-no

I have an owl monitor. It's just a plastic clasp that you place over the cable coming from the meter. You don't need any striped cables or anything like that.

I would always feel very wary when working on mains electrics but to be honest I didn't even have to directly touch any cables in the meter cabinet when fitting this, just slipped the clasp around the cable and fastened it, only thing I touched off was the actual plastic clasp.

I know what you're saying about these cables not being fused but to be honest I feel it's more dangerous plugging in a standard three pin plug than doing this, in terms of getting a shock anyway, whatever about likelihood of fatality

Solair

Assuming the installation's safe, there should not be any risk of shock as there would be no exposed copper on the meter tails. The only risk is that someone does something stupid like pulls one of them to try to get the clamp around. If it's a very old installation, you could encounter brittle insulation or a wire that's extremely hard to get the device around.

All in all, I wouldn't recommend that consumers should be poking around with wiring at the meter at all.

That being said, a shock from any non-RCD protected circuit is enough to kill you stone dead. That includes your typical 10A lighting circuit. The fact that's it's an 63A or 80A tail won't really make a lot of difference in terms of the kind of shock it will deliver. Anything above about 30mA can kill.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

That being said, a shock from any non-RCD protected circuit is enough to kill you stone dead.

It can, but realistically it requires 2 good points of contact. A single contact point with a live phase will be exceptionally unlikely to be fatal.
A person standing in dry conditions touching a phase will likely feel nothing. This is not to say its safe of course.

Some will dispute this, but its a fact. If it was not the case, we would have many fatalities each year. But its not based on that that i say it.

Rocky868

Leaving aside the dangers asociated with fitting a clamp-on CT in a meter cabinet these energy monitors are in-accurate as they do not measure true power or the individual electricity usage of applainces within your home.

M cebee

ya an electrician i worked with would touch a lighting feed upstairs

I stuck a phasetester on his arm and it lit up

Solair

I googled around and came across this for example :

http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=4508796

People suggesting that you should strip back the insulation on the customer tails!

Some installations aren't all that clipable onto!

Most metering installations in Ireland are in outdoor cabinets. So you'd be standing on concrete, quite possibly wet concrete surfaces.

Bruthal

Rocky868 wrote: »

Leaving aside the dangers asociated with fitting a clamp-on CT in a meter cabinet these energy monitors are in-accurate as they do not measure true power or the individual electricity usage of applainces within your home.

Yes we know they dont measure true power, but having tested them myself, they are accurate enough to give people a very good idea of what usage they have, and how to cut down wastage in some cases.

Measuring individual appliances would have no bearing on accuracy, as monitoring overall usage will encompass all apppliances used. The ESB meter does not measure individual appliances, bit we would hope its reasonably accurate.

Some monitors can monitor several CT`s anyway, so can be setup for seperate appliances.

elec

robbie7730 wrote: »

Rocky868 wrote: »

Leaving aside the dangers asociated with fitting a clamp-on CT in a meter cabinet these energy monitors are in-accurate as they do not measure true power or the individual electricity usage of applainces within your home.

Yes we know they dont measure true power, but having tested them myself, they are accurate enough to give people a very good idea of what usage they have, and how to cut down wastage in some cases.

Measuring individual appliances would have no bearing on accuracy, as monitoring overall usage will encompass all apppliances used. The ESB meter does not measure individual appliances, bit we would hope its reasonably accurate.

Some monitors can monitor several CT`s anyway, so can be setup for seperate appliances.

Surley the whole idea of monitoring electricity usage is to help you save money at appliance level. I would like to know what my freezer or tumble dryer is costing me. I tried an energy monitor and being honest i stopped looking at it after 2 days because it was telling me nothing useful. I reckon the batteries to keep it going were costing me more than i might save. Thankfully i had not signed up to a supply contract for two years with airtricity.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

I googled around and came across this for example :

http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=4508796

People suggesting that you should strip back the insulation on the customer tails!

Some installations aren't all that clipable onto!

Most metering installations in Ireland are in outdoor cabinets, so you'd be standing on concrete, quite possibly wet concrete.

Yes, although i have experience of that too, on a farm, damp ground in outhouses, (Its amazing we dont hear of more farm fatalities), and got small shocks, on RCD circuits, never managed to trip one that way, so the current flow to earth with damp runners and ground was still below RCD level, but did trip them before with live to earth contact hand to hand once or twice.

Not that this is suggesting that that makes it safe to swing out of metering wiring of course. Far from it.

But almost all fatal shocks from 230v will be hands on Live to neutral or live to earth. Or contact with 230v while standing in water, wet cement, or similar.

Your right about the 63A circuit or 10A circuit being as equaly likely to supply a fatal shock. I said that myself earlier in the thread i think. The real danger with larger fused circuits is where short circuits occur, the likelyhood of 3 phases, and big busbars to enable good contact for severly dangerous shocks, and the flash damage if a short does occur from tools etc.

Even an extremely severe fatal shock at 230v wont blow a 1A fuse.

ted1

There not conventional CT's they literally are a piece if plastic you just clip around the cable. No need to strip back any cable, as long as its not swa you just clip it on.if you have not seen one please stop posting about how dangerous they are.

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

Surley the whole idea of monitoring electricity usage is to help you save money at appliance level. I would like to know what my freezer or tumble dryer is costing me. I tried an energy monitor and being honest i stopped looking at it after 2 days because it was telling me nothing useful. I reckon the batteries to keep it going were costing me more than i might save. Thankfully i had not signed up to a supply contract for two years with airtricity.

Well monitors can be got that do measure individual appliances, did you just quote me without reading it?

My post just mentions that not monitoring each appliance is not an accuracy criteria.

As for it not measuring each appliance, and telling you nothing useful, did you not think that with only 1 CT clamp, it will only measure one line?

Bruthal

ted1 wrote: »

There not conventional CT's they literally are a piece if plastic you just clip around the cable. No need to strip back any cable, as long as its not swa you just clip it on.if you have not seen one please stop posting about how dangerous they are.

They need to be put around a single conductor though, around both L and N wont work.

ted1

Elec, look at the meter, turn on you individual machines and you'll quickly see what each load uses.

I make my living from EMS and M and T systems I know how important sub metering is but on a domestic level one meter will do the job.

If you need help understanding how to get readings for sub loads I can make up a dummies guide for you.

ted1

robbie7730 wrote: »

They need to be put around a single conductor though, around both L and N wont work.

I know that, they only need yo go around the one core.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

ya an electrician i worked with would touch a lighting feed upstairs

I stuck a phasetester on his arm and it lit up

Sounds familiar, guilty as charged:)

elec

ted1 wrote: »

Elec, look at the meter, turn on you individual machines and you'll quickly see what each load uses.

I make my living from EMS and M and T systems I know how important sub metering is but on a domestic level one meter will do the job.

If you need help understanding how to get readings for sub loads I can make up a dummies guide for you.

Ted. i know very well how to read meters.
Can u tell me how my esb meter or basic energy monitor will tell me what electricity usage my washing machine uses for each load. Should i switch off everything else in the house for 2 hours while i have the washing machine on ?

Bruthal

elec wrote: »

Ted. i know very well how to read meters.
Can u tell me how my esb meter or basic energy monitor will tell me what electricity usage my washing machine uses for each load. Should i switch off everything else in the house for 2 hours while i have the washing machine on ?

Get a non basic energy monitor then. If i want to sail across a lake regularly, i wouldnt buy a car for it.

elec

ted1 wrote: »

robbie7730 wrote: »

They need to be put around a single conductor though, around both L and N wont work.

I know that, they only need yo go around the one core.

Ted ur coming late to the thread. One safety issue is that in many meter installations individual tails are not readily available as they are inside an outer pvc sheath

ted1

Take a reading before you put on your washing machine. Then turn it on and don't touch your other loads. Read your meter. That'll tell how much your wading machine uses. Simple as that.

elec

ted1 wrote: »

Take a reading before you put on your washing machine. Then turn it on and don't touch your other loads. Read your meter. That'll tell how much your wading machine uses. Simple as that.

Amazing how all home owners are not doing this for the last 50 years !. U shoud stick with EMS.

ted1

Well your the one having the problem...

saorviewseeker

robbie7730 wrote: »

It does exactly what it says on the tin. Its an energy monitor. It tells you what energy you have used, and what is being used at any given time. If you can show where the box or tin says it displays your electricity bill, then i`l agree it doesnt do what it says on the tin then.

It also can easily factor in vat.
Put 16 cent into the cost section of the unit settings per unit for ex vat, or 18.38 cent per unit incl vat.

The 2 different standing charges on bill are likely because the standing charge rate increased on 1st of october, so the bill will have 2 seperate prices for this, the pre 1st oct part, and post 1st oct part. It will be €20 per bill now. Or precisely 32.84 cent per day, or €19.70 incl vat for a 60 day bill.

It seems exceptionaly simple to be honest, to understand that an electricity meter or monitor does exactly that, monitors electricity usage. Adding on €20 standing charge and €3.65 for the PSO will give you a bill price, but to tell exactly when the meter will be read is not too easy, or if it will be estimated.

So set the unit to 18.38 per unit, and that will be your units including vat on it.

Add €23 to this to get bill. If thats too difficult to manage then nothing anyone can say will make it simpler.

They are simply a monitor to give people an idea of what usage they have, and what appliances use etc. It is not an electricity meter, nor does it say anywhere, that it displays an electricity bill including standing and government charges.

Many thanks for your detailed reply, it's very much appreciated.

dowtcha

Even ESB don't have issues with this

http://www.esbstore.ie/Product/PlugIn-Energy-Monitor/1285/200

Cheap and cheerful, avail in any high street retailers, can be useful for those not wanting to lurk around ESB supply meters

deandean

I bought an energy monitor in Maplin about two years ago. It's accurate to within a few per cent. From my experience of installing the CT, the installation is 'Well within the remit of the average DIY-er'.

P.S. Spot the huge spider :eek: I'd never be a meter reader.

elec

deandean wrote: »

I bought an energy monitor in Maplin about two years ago. It's accurate to within a few per cent. From my experience of installing the CT, the installation is 'Well within the remit of the average DIY-er'.

P.S. Spot the huge spider :eek: I'd never be a meter reader.

Deandean ur meter cabinet suits the installation of an energy monitor as the tails are accessible - most meter installations are not that safe. Very often the tails are not exposed or the cables are old or tight. Advising that this is a DIY job leads to very dangerous situations like the advice given by a mum to use a knife to strip back the outer sheath.
http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=4508796

M cebee

yes i agree

i'm surprised that people are advocating this as a diy job

some poor unfortunate will prob get killed stripping back live cable with knife

and since when did gadgets belong in a meter cabinet

Solair

As far as I am aware, ESB Networks specifically forbids anything other than ESB equipment being installed in a metering cabinet.

Check their requirements...

http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/downloads/metering_specification_rev_9.pdf

See note in the box in the middle of page 2!

For many installations this kinda of clamp-on-wire meter is likely to be quite easy. The big issue is where it's multi-core cable like Twin & Earth, or where the cabling is very short or dips in behind a board.