Pulling on the lead

getz

Whispered wrote: »

This is not the case with a properly chosen, fitted and used harness, you're very sure in your statement, but really it's an opinion, not fact.

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

tk123

getz wrote: »

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

The OP is asking about a front attach harness though - sled dogs wear back attach ones

getz

DBB wrote: »

I enjoy a lot of your posts kildare, but I do think you "light fires" from time to time because your way of doing things, dog training-wise, jars somewhat with the more enlightened training methods that are available to us. They're not new methods, they just got lost somewhere between the First World War and now, but are making a comeback.
It is hard to accept the opinion of someone advocating the use of equipment that has been shown to be harmful both physically and behaviourally, particularly when there is far superior gear available which causes no harm. I do tend to find that this preponderance for use of choke chains (and pack-leader theories, for that matter) tends to be more common amongst men.. it's not exclusive to ye, but it definitely more common amongst ye;).





That's great that your dogs enjoy such a nice comfort of life. As for the dog breeding and showing thing, many in the show fraternity are quite entrenched in their attitudes to training dogs, and do tend to hide behind the "I've been around dogs for years" defence. But it just doesn't wash, I'm afraid. I've also been around dogs for years... I've also had eyes all my life but that doesn't make me an optician. Being around dogs for years does not necessarily mean one has been doing things as well as they should be for all that time.
But I'm not too surprised that you've inherited the attitude you have if you're from this background.
I don't want to seem disengenuous to all dog show people, I know there are some who are really progressive and open to changing old ways, but there are so many who just won't budge because they fear change and fear their lack of knowledge of dog learning processes being exposed, I expect.




I think this is an easy shot to throw at people, getz. It paints people who argue for ethical training as hysterical. Maybe some of us are, but I prefer to base my opinions on hard evidence rather than strident emotion. I hope I've already made my point: there is no need to use harmful equipment not just for ethical reasons, but because there are more effective alternatives that do no harm available.
Anyone who keeps harking back to the "I've been around for dogs for years".. (like that confers some sort of right to use abusive training methods:rolleyes:), or that keeps insisting that it's okay to use gear proven to be harmful, when there are alternatives will always "step on toes", and rightfully so. It's only right that outdated and potentially harmful attitudes to training are challenged.

you came over very hard in your post,and i felt i had to come in in his defence,i do believe that not many people are aware how dangerous it is to use choke chains on dogs,also 35 years ago i used to show dogs as well,and it did upset me that [only a few] some of the dogs were not at all happy to be standing around the show halls up to four hrs at a time.on my pup i have used a harness and a collar and leed [at the same time] and i had a limited sucess

Whispered

The fact that many dogs walk on harnesses without pulling would suggest to me that they pull because they have been trained and/or bred to pull. A correct harness and training will not cause a dog to pull. If that was the case, and if as you said a harness will cause a dog to pull, then nobody would use harnesses because every dog on a harness would pull.

I have one dog who I walk on a front connection harness because a back connecting one give him too much strength, and he does pull harder on it - so I chose the correct harness and he doesn't pull. I have another dog who I walk on a back connecting harness and he's as happy as anything to toddle alongside me.

Harnesses do not cause dogs to pull, training or lack of does. Not every harness will suit every dog, but likewise to state so surely that harnesses do the opposite of what they are said to do is just not the case.

Taltos

Léan wrote: »

Thank you so much for all your advice guys, i'l definitely be taking it all on board.

Just re the harness again, i've rang around and I can't seem to find anywhere that has the Easy Walk Harness in Cork, I did find somewhere that has the Halti though (Creedons Doggy Daycare), they said they have one similar to the Easy Walk, as in you clip the lead to the front of the dog also, as i want to avoid putting anything around his snout.

Would this be a bad second choice? Am I better off just waiting to find the Easy Walk?

I just did a quick google search and found one online store in Ireland that sell the Easy Walk harness - not sure if links are allowed here

Name was: Brendaspets
I have not used them so I have no idea how good they are (the easy walk and Brenda's)

cocker5

OP..

Personally i wouldnt use a choke chain they can do alot of damage to a dogs throat... and the fact is while they are being trained on a choke chain before the fear is choked into them .... the chain "chokes" their neck.... it can have long term damage... its like scaring them into waling correctly for you... or they get hurt :eek:

i feel your pain with regards to pulling... my cocker was a nightmare for pulling... so i tried the halti - didnt work as it pulled on his eyes lids too and gave him infections.... tried the gentle leader.... same problem.... i tried a harness, yeah it was great for him gave him more leverage to pull me with. i do use a harness to bring him jogging and also for cycling him but not for walking him..

I now use the dogmatic..... while he doesnt like it, it makes walking far more enjoyable for both of us.... i ordered it online and never looked back....

http://www.dogmatic.org.uk/

What about a slip lead? They're not as "bad" as choke chains.

kopfan77

you cant beat the halti or dogmatic head collar....takes the power away from the dog in that they cant use the strength in their neck/shoulders/back to pull away. As soon as they go to with these the lead being clipped on below their chins simply pulls their head to the side and they lose the power struggle....you are now in charge and not them

I have two german shepherds and no way could i dream of walking the two of them together without these.
Harnesses i found still give the edge to the dog as they still have a hell of a lot more power and strength than they do with the head collars

ISDW

getz wrote: »

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

Completely different style of harness. A sled dog would use an X back harness, with an attachment at the stump of their tail, so that their whole body is pulling. Some teams now wear long distance harnesses, but again, the attachment for the line is on top, so the power of pulling comes from the chest and shoulders. The newer, non pulling harnesses are attached at the front, to prevent the dog from pulling. Just because its called a harness, doesn't mean its the same thing, just that its not a collar:D

axle108

cocker5 wrote: »

OP..

Personally i wouldnt use a choke chain they can do alot of damage to a dogs throat... and the fact is while they are being trained on a choke chain before the fear is choked into them .... the chain "chokes" their neck.... it can have long term damage... its like scaring them into waling correctly for you... or they get hurt

Choke chains are not meant to be used in this manner, which is why they cause the damage. While a lot of respondents here hate them and thats there choice which i respect, i use one but lightly with timing to deliver a quick correction for unwanted behaviour. I also do lots of what above have said regarding stop when pulling, redirection etc. Lots of dogs will pull, no matter what collection of collars, leads, easy leaders etc you use. It can take a long time with a lot of training and bundles of patience to rectify a puller.

DBB

axle108 wrote: »

Choke chains are not meant to be used in this manner, which is why they cause the damage. While a lot of respondents here hate them and thats there choice which i respect, i use one but lightly with timing to deliver a quick correction for unwanted behaviour.

There is no doubt, choke chains, shock collars, all these pieces of gear can work when used properly and with precision timing.
However!
It's the "correction" bit that's not necessary when you're using a fonrt-attachment harness. Even a light "correction" still involves having to teach the dog by avoidance. A "correction" is inherently unpleasant for a dog, to some degree, and the choke chain works because the dog is trying to avoid being corrected.
This is training by negative reinforcement. It training terms, a good trainer will avoid using techniques which utilise negative reinforcement, because the fall-out from negative reinforcment is potentially too much. I've said it on previous posts about shock collars, it's not so much the correction that causes the problem for the dog (although it is if it's too rough), it's the anticipation of the correction that is so potentially harmful.
Axle, whilst I appreciate that you deem the choke chain to be appropriate training gear in this day of availability of gentler equipment, there are dogs out there who fall apart at the slightest inkling of discomfort, making them very difficult to train at all. Many other dogs become immune to the sensation altogether, others just get peed off with it.
Then, there's always the (very common) eventuality that the dog lunges at a passing dog/bike/car... there is nothing the handler can do here to soften the harsh, albeit inadvertent "correction" the dog receives from the tightned choke chain in these circumstances. And it is precisely these circumstances where a dog learns to dislike other dogs/bikes/cars... he lunged at them before, it hurt, and the dog now has a conditioned dislike of the object which "caused" the hurt to happen, i.e. the other dog/bike/car.

To the poster above who asked about slip leads... these are not meant to be used as an exercising lead, they are designed for people who are handling (usually unknown) dogs and having to move them from one place to the other without the dog wriggling out of the collar (pounds, rescues, are examples). They are also used by shooters when gathering their dogs up to go from A to B, as gundogs should not wear a collar whilst working. But no, not meant to be used as a training aid at all. After all, they tighten up as soon as the dog puts pressure on them, the tightening noose choking the dog. At least the choke chain has a quick-release effect if used properly, but slip leads not so much.

Helen1976

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

cjf

Iv think iv just about tried every harness / headcollar out there at this stage my fella just doesnt seem to get the no pulling thing! Done classes, been working with treats for 2 years and when we go on our 'training' walks one on one he will stop pulling but add another dog or two to the mix and no amount of treats will work! Had the front harness and the grazes and grass stains to prove it didn't work for us! Always recommend the dogmatic as it made the walk manageable but read a post on here recommending the k9 headcollar so picked one up at the expo this year and it's making an improvement still early days with it but the training walks going great and can see glimpses of loose lead on the pack walks! It's ignited a spark of hope that had long gone out!! Also it doesn't ride up in his eyes he has a narrow muzzle (in comparison to his head size!) and the k9 headcollar just sits on his face no moving! I have more control and iv even gotten some lie downs out on our walks so he is listening more!! Good luck with your search for the solution that works for you op!!

Kash

I think some of the implications on here are a bit over the top: i.e: if I use a choke collar I love my dog less, or I am causing them pain, or distress.

I agree that they can cause damage, but only if used incorrectly or excessively. They work for my dogs, the dogs are happier with them than with a nose restraint halter like the dogmatic, which made them nervous and unhappy - and I would never make my dogs unhappy.

I have never tried a front attached harness (only a back one) so can't comment on that but it seems that people do have lots of success with them which can only be a good thing.

One question for the harnesspihiles though, if you were caught short without your front connecting harness, and had to use a normal every day buckle collar and lead, would the dog pull? Or does the simple fact of using the special front fastening harness teach them not to?

I am still using the choke chain for one dog whilst going through the long process of stopping every time she pulls, but if there was a way to train her to walk with me while off the leash by using it, I would certainly consider it.

Whispered

Helen1976 wrote: »

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

Do you mean the dog was moved to the exercise area on a slip lead, or that the dog was walked on the slip lead for a distance?


I wouldn't be annoyed so much as confused - I would want to know if there was a reason it was used instead of the dogs own collar and lead. And I would explain that I wouldn't want it to be used again.

I think I'd probably ask about their other handling techniques too.

tk123

Kash wrote: »

One question for the harnesspihiles though, if you were caught short without your front connecting harness, and had to use a normal every day buckle collar and lead, would the dog pull? Or does the simple fact of using the special front fastening harness teach them not to?

.

I've forgotten ours a few times say at the beach where he's in his element and wants to go exploring etc and I've found that he might pull initially but once I correct him a couple of times he switches to collar mode and is grand. For correcting him I just stop until he stops and steps back to me and then give him a click (the clicker is clipped to his lead ) and away we go or we might do a few look commands - so he knows I have treats and will focus on staying beside me and not get distracted. I give him look commands regularly both on or off the lead - I've found it's trained him to check in with me evey now and again which I like - especially when he's off the lead.
He does know when it's ok to pull thou- if I tell him ready, steady, go! he runs and pulls me up the hill :pac::pac:

Helen1976

Whispered wrote: »

Helen1976 wrote: »

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

Do you mean the dog was moved to the exercise area on a slip lead, or that the dog was walked on the slip lead for a distance?


I wouldn't be annoyed so much as confused - I would want to know if there was a reason it was used instead of the dogs own collar and lead. And I would explain that I wouldn't want it to be used again.

I think I'd probably ask about their other handling techniques too.

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

andreac

Helen1976 wrote: »

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

If i left instructions to someone looking after my dog and they didnt follow them, i would be very annoyed and id let them know that and i certainly wouldnt use them again and i would be telling others why and make sure they werent recommended to use... Very foolish person, god knows what else they were doing behind your back if they said that to you:mad:

TooManyDogs

Léan wrote: »

I would like to avoid muzzling if possible

I can totally understand not wanting to muzzle your new baby but given that he's on the restricted breed list it would be very worthwhile to gently introduce a muzzle now. Make putting it on a game that he gets highly rewarded for, and gradually leave it on longer so that if you ever are stopped by a warden or guard you can slip one on him without freaking him out.

I love the Canny collar, I've had great success with them and I'm a major fan.

Zapperzy

Helen1976 wrote: »

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

Yes I would be angry if my dog was exercised on a slip lead when they were given the harness which he is used to, obviously if that's what you normally use then he doesn't escape from it and if she's afraid he could escape then just check that it fits properly when she puts it on, but to just write it off totally as 'crap' is unacceptable in my opinion.

I would normally use slip leads when working in a vets if I have to move a dog from one area to another or to bring them outside quickly for a pee. Reason being is that I'd say over 50% of dogs that come in their collars are way too big on them and if they were to back up a little they'd slip it altogether and then your left holding a collar and lead and a loose dog running around. And I think owners would prefer that I use a slip lead as opposed to getting a call to say their dog has escaped and gone missing! :eek: If they come in with proper fitting collars or harnesses then I'd use those but I'd prefer not to take a chance if a collar is a little too loose.

TooManyDogs

Zapperzy wrote: »

I would normally use slip leads when working in a vets if I have to move a dog from one area to another or to bring them outside quickly for a pee. Reason being is that I'd say over 50% of dogs that come in their collars are way too big on them and if they were to back up a little they'd slip it altogether and then your left holding a collar and lead and a loose dog running around. And I think owners would prefer that I use a slip lead as opposed to getting a call to say their dog has escaped and gone missing! :eek: If they come in with proper fitting collars or harnesses then I'd use those but I'd prefer not to take a chance if a collar is a little too loose.

I have to say I agree with you, I often use slip leads on dogs I'm boarding for that very reason, having said that no-one has given me a harness to use but having seen some dogs at the rescue centre slip out of perfectly fitting collars I err on the side of caution. One pair of dogs I board have collars so loose that I can put my entire hand under their collar up to the elbow so they definitely get walked on a slip lead!

getz

Whispered wrote: »

The fact that many dogs walk on harnesses without pulling would suggest to me that they pull because they have been trained and/or bred to pull. A correct harness and training will not cause a dog to pull. If that was the case, and if as you said a harness will cause a dog to pull, then nobody would use harnesses because every dog on a harness would pull.

I have one dog who I walk on a front connection harness because a back connecting one give him too much strength, and he does pull harder on it - so I chose the correct harness and he doesn't pull. I have another dog who I walk on a back connecting harness and he's as happy as anything to toddle alongside me.

Harnesses do not cause dogs to pull, training or lack of does. Not every harness will suit every dog, but likewise to state so surely that harnesses do the opposite of what they are said to do is just not the case.

more info, www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dogwalk.htm

Whispered

I stopped reading after this

Walk your dog, do not let your dog walk you. If you allow your dog to walk in front of you while on a lead you are reinforcing in the dog's mind that the dog is alpha over you. Leader goes first. This can lead to many behavioral issues that some regard as a "Breed Trait" or "Personality" when actually it is just your dog in charge of its humans. A dog walking in front does not drain their mental energy. They are not relaxed and following, as they have a big responsibility to be leading the pack.

(although in looking for who was actually running the site and writing the articles, I found some links to "hybrid" dog breeders, prices on how much it costs to advertise and an add for "miniature goldendoodles")



So with your sled dog analogy, and now with your "leader goes first" analogy - by your logic, sled dogs believe they are "the alpha" over their owners?

Getz with all due respect please think about what you are saying - you stated that harnesses make dogs pull - logically this cannot be possibly true as many people successfully walk dogs using harnesses.

EDIT: The site gets worse - they are trying to sell Milan products, which is fair enough, but to tell owners that buying a book or dvd can prevent or fix any issues??

"Cesar Millan DVD's - Cesar Millan Books. Cesar's methods can prevent or fix any existing behavioral issues."

markc1184

I had terrible trouble with my dog pulling at first and I've had great success using the Halti head collar. At first he hated it and just lay down trying to pull it off, but once he got used to it he's loved walking on it since.

ShaShaBear

Whispered wrote: »

Of course they work, but at what cost? Many things work when training dogs, but why harm the dog when it's totally unnecessary to do so?

OP my husband discovered something very funny on a walk a few days ago. He noticed that the dog was walking very well,he usually doesn't walk well for him at all. It turns out, the dog had stepped over his lead and it was crossed under his body so when he pulled it turned him around. It had a similar effect to his front connection harness.

I wouldn't recommend it over a harness, but handy for quick trips to the car etc.

I have to quote this, it made me laugh out loud - my dog did this yesterday, could I for the life of me figure out why he was walking like a perfect gentleman :P

ISDW

Only just catching up with this thread, was away all weekend in Cavan at a sled dog rally, where my dogs ran and walked in front of me for the whole weekend. Yet they still listened when I told them to turn left and right, to stop and go. And I can sit and eat my dinner without them trying to take my food - wonder which one of the 11 is the alpha?

Getz, yes, sled dog harnesses are designed for pulling, but the non-pulling harnesses aren't, they are a completely different thing. I would rather put a non-pulling harness on a dog than a check chain as shown on that page, or one of Cesar's Illusion collars. Did you read that whole page? "A couple of backwards boots in the butt" - definitely not a technique I would recommend for training any animal.

littlebug

In the year we've had our dog we've spent a fortune on various collar set ups....
1. First there was the regular collar which she just reversed out of when she felt like it. I thought it was just too big so tried a smaller one.... but no it seems her head is smaller than her neck or something and she can get out of any collar in the blink of an eye.

2. Regular harness- had me reduced to tears trying to control her on walks in the ice and snow.. she also managed to reverse out of it as with regular collar above (to run out in front of cars on icy roads :eek:)

3. Gentle leader head collar- I finally had some control but she was still a bit "pully" even with it and.... she learned to bite down and open the lead clip with her teeth:eek: (dog in heat runs off into the darkness:eek:).

4. Dogmatic- wonderful for walking but expensive. At times I had to look down to see if I still had a dog with me. I lost the first one- and she broke the second one- was attached to long lead in the garden while my husband was cutting grass etc so the gate was open- she pulled so much it snapped.
Also.. she throws a complete wobbly when she sees cats (barking, flailing, thrashing dog ) the dogmatic tended to end up wrapped around her teeth in her efforts to get it off- not an easy thing to deal with.

5. Couldn't justify the expense of another dogmatic so tried halti headcollar- snapped as in dogmatic 2 above.

I also run with the dog which doesn't work very well with the headcollar so decided to try front clip harness.

6. Now have halti front clip harness which when it fits correctly works well and is good for running, but medium size seems too big for my medium sized dog and the adjustments dont' stay at the tightest adjustment once she pulls at all. if she stands up on her back legs at all (which she does a lot) one leg instantly slips out of the harness at which point I might as well just be using a reguar collar.

I'm (almost;)) out of ideas... might try one of those easy walk harnesses.

Have also had (3) training sessions but have grown to accept my lovely flawed and crazy dog

Wibbs

Whispered wrote: »

So with your sled dog analogy, and now with your "leader goes first" analogy - by your logic, sled dogs believe they are "the alpha" over their owners?

+1000, plus if it's a wolf model they're pushing, you can look at any number of youtube vids where the head of the pack is hanging back, or at the back or at the front. They don't seem nearly so anal about this as the Milanites and you'd think they'd know the score. All that wolf dominance stuff is based on dodgy and out of date stuff from observing wolves of a similar age in captivity. Same thing with this stuff about dominance rolls. Wolves don't do that. They don't have to. If one did there'd likely be a fight. The chap who was the original researcher has come out and said it's all bollocks* and has completely reversed his position from observing the pack dynamic in the wild. They're a family unit.

Basically mammy and daddy are the pack leaders and you get to be a "pack leader" by basically growing up, moving out and starting your own family. If they gave up this alpha shíte and thought more along the lines of the dog sees you as mammy/daddy/head of the family(and unlike a wolf stays that way). Mutual respect, boundaries set, with the odd bit of disobedience and shenanigans(especially in their "teens") then IMHO there'd be a lot less hassle. Hell I've seen this in action with a mate of mine. Two kids and a dog and the three together as a mix can lead to real shenanigans if the parents aren't around... Now I know logically that dogs are "in the moment" minds and don't show backward remorse, but bloody hell to see the three of them show the same guilty faces looking at the ground and each other when they're caught out, I do begin to wonder.







*Though he may have used more cautious and scientific terms

getz

Whispered wrote: »

I stopped reading after this


(although in looking for who was actually running the site and writing the articles, I found some links to "hybrid" dog breeders, prices on how much it costs to advertise and an add for "miniature goldendoodles")



So with your sled dog analogy, and now with your "leader goes first" analogy - by your logic, sled dogs believe they are "the alpha" over their owners?

Getz with all due respect please think about what you are saying - you stated that harnesses make dogs pull - logically this cannot be possibly true as many people successfully walk dogs using harnesses.

EDIT: The site gets worse - they are trying to sell Milan products, which is fair enough, but to tell owners that buying a book or dvd can prevent or fix any issues??

"Cesar Millan DVD's - Cesar Millan Books. Cesar's methods can prevent or fix any existing behavioral issues."

i know what i am saying ,there are specialist harnesses on the market,a lot of them some work some dont,for a good reason,because in general harnesses only harnesses the dogs energy,and they will not [i my case stop the dog pulling] i can control my dog better with a collar,but with my young bullies neck being very wide its easy for him to slip out of it,i have two harnesses one was designed for the bully it tightens and lifts his head when he pulls but it has very little effect,off he goes,my other harness is a big leather[and very costly]bulldog one , with that i can keep him under control but he will still try to pull,

Whispered

getz wrote: »

there are specialist harnesses on the market,a lot of them some work some dont,

So we agree then, harnesses do not make dogs pull?