What Heating system???

DonegalRebel

We have just recently received planning permission for a 2-storey 2600 sq. ft house and our architect is currently in the process of doing up the specifications so that we can tender out the build to a number of contractors. I am just really confused at the moment wrt to heating systems. We are going to aim for an A BER rating, i.e. just going to try to get the house as well insulated and as airtight as possible. Here lies the "problem". We want to get UFH (upstairs + down) and from my research geothermal is the system that suits this type of heating best, (don't want rads). Is it a waste of money combining geo with an A rated house??? Our architect is also talking about getting solar ("building a new house, you'd be mad not to!) but he wasnt too keen on a heat recovery pump. This all sounds like it could be a bit expensive, i.e. if we go for A-rating, Geo + Solar. Anybody got any advice on what combinations to use. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

fclauson

Welcome to the forum;)

suggest before you do any specificaiton you
a) get a PHPP done by a professional (if not do it your self you lean so much through the process)
b) get a DEAP calc done

from this you can determine the correct insulation, heating etc etc

to give a example - build do regs and you will need 60 or 70 or even 80 Kwh/M2/ annum

insulate right and this could be around the 15Kwh/M2 mark

This radically changes the heating system you need

Anyway welcome to the roller coster trip called "building you own house and being very confused by all the info which is out there"


(just noticed how late you where up posting this - welcome to many many midnight hours of work)

BryanF

DonegalRebel wrote: »

We have just recently received planning permission for a 2-storey 2600 sq. ft house and our architect is currently in the process of doing up the specifications so that we can tender out the build to a number of contractors. I am just really confused at the moment wrt to heating systems. We are going to aim for an A BER rating, i.e. just going to try to get the house as well insulated and as airtight as possible. Here lies the "problem".

1. We want to get UFH (upstairs + down) and
2. from my research geothermal is the system that suits this type of heating best, (
3. don't want rads).
4. Is it a waste of money combining geo with an A rated house???
5. Our architect is also talking about getting solar (
6. "building a new house, you'd be mad not to!)
7. but he wasnt too keen on a heat recovery pump.
8. This all sounds like it could be a bit expensive, i.e.
9. if we go for A-rating,
10. Geo + Solar.
11. Anybody got any advice on what combinations to use. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

1. i would recommend you visit a few new houses some with and some without underfloor. I think its an expensive system when modern homes don't really need it unless your using a renewable source to heat the thing. which brings us back to phpp, your kwh/msq use, and solar/heat pump
2. it can be but again you need to a kwh/msq calculation. i would argue that UF & GSHP will set you back 20k, if it were me id spend that on better windows and better insulation along MVHR
3. why? there still the best way of heating a large house! you haven't said your floor area btw?
4. maybe but as fclauson said what's an 'A' rated house 75kwh/msq or 15kwh/msq
5. yes how else will you heat the water and top up the heat pump, you'll probably end up with another heat sources as well unless your at passive standards and even then.. you are aware the GSHP only take your UFH halfway?
6. i agree
7. second that as per 2.
8. yes, your building a house! why didn't you consider all this at planning stage?
9. you have no choice, you'd be crazy not to reduce your heating loads as much as possible and achieve an 'A' rated if not passive standard home
10. there are options but consider your kwh/msq cost first!
11. from your post i think you need to employ and trust your professionals, unless you are willing to go on a huge learning curve. if you want to come back with more details on your houses building fabric, windows, thermal bridges, floor areas, kwh/msq then there are several here who are currently building with interesting heating options and several experienced arch/energy consultants also

best of luck

Do-more

DonegalRebel wrote: »

he wasnt too keen on a heat recovery pump.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above please?

If you are going for an highly insulated air tight build then you will most certainly need a heat recovery ventilation system, there is no logic to having one without the other.

If as other have suggested you put your money into good building fabric you will have no need for either UFH or a GSHP.

I'm also about to build in the very south of Sweden so the latitude is only slightly higher than Donegal but with colder but dryer winter weather. The house will not meet passive spec. but comes pretty close, we will use 8m2 of solar panels to give us approx. 70% of our hot water demand and a wood pellet stove with back boiler will supply the rest of the hot water and our space heating demand. Our total heating and hot water bill will be about €350 a year.

The extra we spend on the building fabric will be balanced by what we save on an expensive heating system.

The halfway house that your architect seems to be suggesting with pretty good building fabric and an expensive heating system is likely to cost you more to build and more to run than if you were to go the whole hog on the building fabric.

MicktheMan

Do-more wrote: »

The halfway house that your architect seems to be suggesting with pretty good building fabric and an expensive heating system is likely to cost you more to build and more to run than if you were to go the whole hog on the building fabric.

Couldn't have said it better myself:)

L driver

BryanF,
Can you explain what you mean by GSHP only takes your ufh halfway? This seems way off and a bit scaremongery.

BryanF

L driver wrote: »

BryanF,
Can you explain what you mean by GSHP only takes your ufh halfway? This seems way off and a bit scaremongery.

what I was trying to say, is that the ground temp is at about 12degs, then the heat pump takes over to boost the underfloor heating system (UFH) to its required temperature. this can be effective if the system is designed & commissioned properly but this all depends on other building parameters..

If the system is surrounded by an inefficient building fabric, it has to work extra hard to heat up and will cost you alot more in electricity than your 'renewable energy' saleman tells you.

future to this there are several different components involved in UFH, and GSHPs including the controls, pumps and pipework, sometimes these are even installed/commissioned by different trades. the whole lot will cost you circa 20g and to my mind isn't particularly environmental sound or even renewable given the amount of pvc pipework and the possible electrical energy used. I would prefer to spend my money on the building fabric and designed room orientation, so that I don't need UFH.
I'm about to go look at system put in 2005 that's costing the client circa 3g a year! before I even go out, I know it's going to be a mix of badly designed system and crap insulation/thermal bridging heat loss. Now I'm not a heating specialist, but I'd rather reduce my heating load and have a simple heating source any time..

Condenser

BryanF wrote: »

what I was trying to say, is that the ground temp is at about 12degs, then the heat pump takes over to boost the underfloor heating system (UFH) to its required temperature. this can be effective if the system is designed & commissioned properly but this all depends on other building parameters..

If the system is surrounded by an inefficient building fabric, it has to work extra hard to heat up and will cost you alot more in electricity than your 'renewable energy' saleman tells you.

future to this there are several different components involved in UFH, and GSHPs including the controls, pumps and pipework, sometimes these are even installed/commissioned by different trades. the whole lot will cost you circa 20g and to my mind isn't particularly environmental sound or even renewable given the amount of pvc pipework and the possible electrical energy used. I would prefer to spend my money on the building fabric and designed room orientation, so that I don't need UFH.
I'm about to go look at system put in 2005 that's costing the client circa 3g a year! before I even go out, I know it's going to be a mix of badly designed system and crap insulation/thermal bridging heat loss. Now I'm not a heating specialist, but I'd rather reduce my heating load and have a simple heating source any time..

You're talking rubbish there and are no where near the concept of how a heat pump actually works.

Also, the insulation in a house would have to be practicaly cave like for a HP not to outperform a oil or gas boiler when fitted to a UFH system. 99% of poorly performing heat pumps are down to installers who don't have any real knowledge of what they're installing.

I agree that insulation should come first but to bring a House from an B1/A3 to A1 costs astronomical amounts of money. Considering the running costs available from a heat pump on a fairly well insulated house, I wouldn't be so quick to shoot down the technology.

BryanF

Condenser wrote: »

You're talking rubbish there and are no where near the concept of how a heat pump actually works.

I didn't set out to explain how a heat pump works.

Also, the insulation in a house would have to be practicaly cave like for a HP not to outperform a oil or gas boiler when fitted to a UFH system.

i don't dispute this. who mentioned oil or gas?

99% of poorly performing heat pumps are down to installers who don't have any real knowledge of what they're installing.

I made reference for the need for GSHP's to be installed/commissioned properly. I would disput this 99% figure, for the reason the 'entire' UFH & GSHP system poorly preforms

I agree that insulation should come first but to bring a House from an B1/A3 to A1 costs astronomical amounts of money. Considering the running costs available from a heat pump on a fairly well insulated house, I wouldn't be so quick to shoot down the technology.

given the amount of poorly installed systems, thats a matter of opinion. Im merely suggesting there are alternative ways to spend your cash, I would prefer to spend it on the building fabric.

Carlow52

1: posters in this thread that have a vested interest in heating systems should please declare this rather than berate contributions that have been mis-read.

2: It seems to me that the OP is wedded to UFH and that the house design is following this.

3: You need to look at UFH from 2 aspects: where in house will it go and what heat source.

On the where: IMO UFH upstairs in a well built insulated house is a waste of money: hot air rises....once u heat down stairs there will always heat going up and then use small rads for top up from base heat

On the what, there is no g/tee that geo will work on you site: have you done a site survey: what happens if site is granite?

4: Have you considered a thermal store with the solar for the UFH.

5: it seems to me that ur professional advisors can see all the building blocks of the design but dont know how to properly integrate them and the bits they dont understand they wont use.

heat pumps in my view are expensive to install, expensive to run and a demon to maintain: why on earth u would wed yourself to a system that must have elec to power it is beyond me.

No elec, you will have nothing: the elec back up for a big power hungry heat pump is a mutiple of what u need for an oil or gas fired burner.

As noted earlier the 20k can be better spent, including perhaps a solid fuel stove of some sort.

What you dont need is a solution which is expensive and may possibly become 2 expensive to run or and maintain/repair and as you huddle over a super ser in the dark you can draw cold comfort from the fact that you have no rads:(

Condenser

BryanF wrote: »

I didn't set out to explain how a heat pump works.
i don't dispute this. who mentioned oil or gas?
I made reference for the need for GSHP's to be installed/commissioned properly. I would disput this 99% figure, for the reason the 'entire' UFH & GSHP system poorly preforms

given the amount of poorly installed systems, thats a matter of opinion. Im merely suggesting there are alternative ways to spend your cash, I would prefer to spend it on the building fabric.

Then why claim that a heat pump can only heat the house halfway and will require back up. Which is blatant rubbish and scaremongering.

I'd love to know what you think is the cause of badly performing heat pump installations in that case because as someone who attends many installations per year to give an assessment report to customers who aren't happy with their installations, those are my findings. So please enlighten me.

Building fabric is fantastic and can be fantasticly expensive also. And at the end of the day, you still have to heat your house.

brophis

I'm in a similar scenario to the OP but lately I've been looking into Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHP) as a posisble solution for DHW and UFH. Originally priced geo heat pumps but found the cost a bit over the top and would obviously be better off spending a good portion of that cost on better insulation. The cost of an ASHPs solution is definitely cheaper. I'm aware of the limitations and COP reduction in colder weather but anyone that I've talked to with one seems to be happy with it. All this is dependent on having a well insulated house. The alternative appears to be solar + oil + stove with back boiler but when you add in the cost of buffer tanks etc it's not that far out from the ASHP cost.
Not an easy decision and would still like to get more feedback from more people with heat pumps but the one conclusion I keep coming back to no matter what heat source I look at is spend the money on insulation instead.

creedp

Carlow52 wrote: »

1: posters in this thread that have a vested interest in heating systems should please declare this rather than berate contributions that have been mis-read.

2: It seems to me that the OP is wedded to UFH and that the house design is following this.

3: You need to look at UFH from 2 aspects: where in house will it go and what heat source.

On the where: IMO UFH upstairs in a well built insulated house is a waste of money: hot air rises....once u heat down stairs there will always heat going up and then use small rads for top up from base heat

On the what, there is no g/tee that geo will work on you site: have you done a site survey: what happens if site is granite?

4: Have you considered a thermal store with the solar for the UFH.

5: it seems to me that ur professional advisors can see all the building blocks of the design but dont know how to properly integrate them and the bits they dont understand they wont use.

heat pumps in my view are expensive to install, expensive to run and a demon to maintain: why on earth u would wed yourself to a system that must have elec to power it is beyond me.

No elec, you will have nothing: the elec back up for a big power hungry heat pump is a mutiple of what u need for an oil or gas fired burner.

As noted earlier the 20k can be better spent, including perhaps a solid fuel stove of some sort.

What you dont need is a solution which is expensive and may possibly become 2 expensive to run or and maintain/repair and as you huddle over a super ser in the dark you can draw cold comfort from the fact that you have no rads:(

Carlow52, many contributors to this forum have vested interests and not just heating contractors:) I've have said before that not everything is black and white when it comes to decisions like this. Some people like UFH some people don't, some people like oil boilers some people don't, some people like concrete blocks somepeople don't, some people like PVC windows some people don't, etc, etc. Not all decisions are made on a completely cold headed rational basis otherwise we'd all, subject to resources, be building the exact same house, with the exact same spec. But we're not and people make decisions which may not always be understood by the professionals. For e.g. your point re: UFH upstairs. You may not think its appropriate but many do. I love the warm floor in the morning ... do I need it? is it cost effective? I don't know but I like it:) Now I may not use it a whole lot but the incremental cost of installing it was not huge. I spent a lot more incrementally with natural slate and alu-clad windows but I don't hear anybody complaining about that. As for the whole issue of HP and expense. I know quite a few people now with HPs and I'll give you the 1st one but not the latter 2:).

However, the discussion is useful and informative

BryanF

Condenser wrote: »

Then why claim that a heat pump can only heat the house halfway and will require back up. Which is blatant rubbish and scaremongering.

i getting a bit tired of this scaremongering accusation, so lets take it in context - this was following a question about was solar panels necessary in the mix (along with GSHP's):

how else will you heat the water and top up the heat pump, you'll probably end up with another heat sources as well unless your at passive standards and even then.. you are aware the GSHP only take your UFH halfway?

to the temperature that's needed for HW demand.

Now I've admitted to it being poorly worded answer but the point still stands. GSHP will not heat your HW demand nor will the standard solar panel kit at least in the depths of winter anyway..

I'd love to know what you think is the cause of badly performing heat pump installations in that case because as someone who attends many installations per year to give an assessment report to customers who aren't happy with their installations, those are my findings. So please enlighten me.

well thats very interesting maybe you'd PM me your details.
My point is there are many factors including the specification/ type of system used, the use of inferior quality components, different trades & a lack of control/overlap, lack of understanding of controls/the system by clients and its perceived responsiveness, heat loss due to inferior building fabric and there's often a lack of air-tightness and suitable ventilation system.

Building fabric is fantastic and can be fantasticly expensive also. And at the end of the day, you still have to heat your house.

yes I agree that building fabric is expensive but it doesn't need rising electric costs to preform
imo GSHP's with UFH are an expensive solution, a technology that uses electricity, given that so much of our electricity comes form fossil fuels, and our electricity is subject to regular price increases.
shouldn't we build to reduce the effect of rising fuel prices on our homes/families. GSHP's are installed by rural or semi-rural self-builders who could with a bit of imagination get their hands on a timber/biomass fuel source. I would rather spend the money on limiting the need for a heating source and install a stove or even log boiler. It's interesting you use

the B1/A3 to A1 costs astronomical amounts of money

this is imo is as much about the seai's required use of technology as it is about building fabric

TheStudent

Aiming for an “A” Rated BER

Hi, I just read all the threads and said i would register and just let you know my opinion, hope its of some help to you.

1.
I would get the specifications and plans of the new dwelling and contact a BER Assessor to carry out a provisional BER Rating of the proposed new dwelling.

2.
Then i would use this BER Rating as a basis on where to go from here in relation to your discussions with the architect, ie. If the new dwelling only is getting a “B” rating, you need to investigate what changes need to be taken in order to achieve a better BER Rating.

In my opinion,
you should try and build your New Home to a “Passive House” Standard or alternatively, incorporate as many “Passive House” design elements as feasibly possible into your New home.

“A passive house is an energy-efficient building with year-round comfort and good indoor environmental conditions without the use of significant active space heating or cooling systems (but you can always install a central heating system and/or stove, to act as a backup if you should so wish, and I would recommend this personally). The space heat requirement is reduced by means of passive measures to the point at which there is no longer any need for a conventional heating system. A passive house provides a very high level of thermal comfort and provision of whole-house even temperature. The concept is based on minimising heat losses and maximising heat gains, thus enabling the use of simple building services. The appearance of a passive house does not need to differ from a conventional house and living in it does not require any lifestyle changes. Passive houses are naturally well lit due to large glazed areas designed to optimise solar gains”.

The additional Passive House Stand Construction cost in Ireland represents approximately 12.5% of current conventional costs (so im told).

Refer www.seai.ie and download the document “Guidelines for the design and Construction of Passive House Dwellings in Ireland”


If I was to build I would

1.
Insulate to the highest of standards

2.
Have the best possible windows and doors installed (energy rating system for windows and doors are now in place in Ireland, check out www.nsai.ie)

3.
Have a solar powered Hot Water and Central Heating System Installed (I would not go with geothermal personally when I could get most of my hot water and heating needs from solar)

4.
Have a back up gas condensing boiler installed (with full heating controls installed) as a top-up and back-up to the solar hot water and heating system. (gas is good I find as gas tanks can be buried in the ground and its very hard for anyone to rob your gas, unlike oil)

5.
Install a multi fuel stove as this will mean that there is always a totally separate way of heating your dwelling separate from the solar and gas system, and I find the look of a multi fuel stove in a dwelling when lit adds to the comfort levels within the dwelling.

PS, there is so much to consider I really do thing that you need to get a professional to give you some help, get them to give you a one day consultation in which you and the architect attend and just sit down and brainstorm everything taking into account your budget, utility bills, comfort levels etc.

PPS, A Provisional BER Rating may cost you about €125-175, complete with an advisory report, A Consultation will cost you about an additional €150 id say

Troy McClure

TheStudent wrote: »

Aiming for an “A” Rated BER

Hi, I just read all the threads and said i would register and just let you know my opinion, hope its of some help to you.

1.
I would get the specifications and plans of the new dwelling and contact a BER Assessor to carry out a provisional BER Rating of the proposed new dwelling.

2.
Then i would use this BER Rating as a basis on where to go from here in relation to your discussions with the architect, ie. If the new dwelling only is getting a “B” rating, you need to investigate what changes need to be taken in order to achieve a better BER Rating.

In my opinion,
you should try and build your New Home to a “Passive House” Standard or alternatively, incorporate as many “Passive House” design elements as feasibly possible into your New home.

“A passive house is an energy-efficient building with year-round comfort and good indoor environmental conditions without the use of significant active space heating or cooling systems (but you can always install a central heating system and/or stove, to act as a backup if you should so wish, and I would recommend this personally). The space heat requirement is reduced by means of passive measures to the point at which there is no longer any need for a conventional heating system. A passive house provides a very high level of thermal comfort and provision of whole-house even temperature. The concept is based on minimising heat losses and maximising heat gains, thus enabling the use of simple building services. The appearance of a passive house does not need to differ from a conventional house and living in it does not require any lifestyle changes. Passive houses are naturally well lit due to large glazed areas designed to optimise solar gains”.

The additional Passive House Stand Construction cost in Ireland represents approximately 12.5% of current conventional costs (so im told).

Refer www.seai.ie and download the document “Guidelines for the design and Construction of Passive House Dwellings in Ireland”


If I was to build I would

1.
Insulate to the highest of standards

2.
Have the best possible windows and doors installed (energy rating system for windows and doors are now in place in Ireland, check out www.nsai.ie)

3.
Have a solar powered Hot Water and Central Heating System Installed (I would not go with geothermal personally when I could get most of my hot water and heating needs from solar)

4.
Have a back up gas condensing boiler installed (with full heating controls installed) as a top-up and back-up to the solar hot water and heating system. (gas is good I find as gas tanks can be buried in the ground and its very hard for anyone to rob your gas, unlike oil)

5.
Install a multi fuel stove as this will mean that there is always a totally separate way of heating your dwelling separate from the solar and gas system, and I find the look of a multi fuel stove in a dwelling when lit adds to the comfort levels within the dwelling.

PS, there is so much to consider I really do thing that you need to get a professional to give you some help, get them to give you a one day consultation in which you and the architect attend and just sit down and brainstorm everything taking into account your budget, utility bills, comfort levels etc.

PPS, A Provisional BER Rating may cost you about €125-175, complete with an advisory report, A Consultation will cost you about an additional €150 id say

I find a lot wrong in here. too much and too tired to write it all. Please show me a certification on doors through NSAI or otherwise though. That would be usefull to lots of people

TheStudent

Troy McClure wrote: »

I find a lot wrong in here. too much and too tired to write it all. Please show me a certification on doors through NSAI or otherwise though. That would be usefull to lots of people

Sorry Troy,

It’s the NSAI “WEP - Window Energy Performance” Scheme and yes it doesn’t reference Doors, just a habit I’m afraid that I mention the two in the one sentence, there is no “Door Energy Performance” Scheme in the NSAI as of yet, your completely right.

The rest of my post was just my opinion and preferences as to how I would go about a new dwelling with the technologies and information available to me today, but I do look forward to critical reviews .)

fclauson

TheStudent wrote: »

Aiming for an “A” Rated BER

2.
Then i would use this BER Rating as a basis on where to go from here in relation to your discussions with the architect, ie. If the new dwelling only is getting a “B” rating, you need to investigate what changes need to be taken in order to achieve a better BER Rating.

In my opinion,
you should try and build your New Home to a “Passive House” Standard or alternatively, incorporate as many “Passive House” design elements as feasibly possible into your New home.

Unfortunatly there is a tipping point at which the more passive you make a house the worse the BER rating becomes (barmy but true)

So you need both BER done and a PHPP done - and then you need to interprit this into a plan for a build

kboc

My experiences and thoughts.

Experiences:

A 4000 sq ft house, heating and hot water by GSHP, cost of TOTAL electricity (including lights, washing machine, everything electrical) bill for year £700-£800. The fraction of this attributable to GSHP I am not sure but approx £350-£400. I am happy that I have extremly low heating costs when you break it down to a £/sq m cost, BUT......

Thoughts:
Some of the contributors on here are dead right. It is an absolute no brainer, I should have put the money into the fabric of building instead of the £22k (sterling) the above cost me, my return on my invest would be far better. But this was 3.5 years ago and it was an education issue back then, i.e. i did not know any better! But now I do and with hindsight it was madness to plough that sort of money into something which has running costs (Heating system) as opposed to a one off bill (building fabric)

Anybody who has any level of objectiveness and fairness about themselves (regardless of their job) will push the later case as above.

K

creedp

kboc wrote: »

My experiences and thoughts.

Experiences:

A 4000 sq ft house, heating and hot water by GSHP, cost of TOTAL electricity (including lights, washing machine, everything electrical) bill for year £700-£800. The fraction of this attributable to GSHP I am not sure but approx £350-£400. I am happy that I have extremly low heating costs when you break it down to a £/sq m cost, BUT......

Thoughts:
Some of the contributors on here are dead right. It is an absolute no brainer, I should have put the money into the fabric of building instead of the £22k (sterling) the above cost me, my return on my invest would be far better. But this was 3.5 years ago and it was an education issue back then, i.e. i did not know any better! But now I do and with hindsight it was madness to plough that sort of money into something which has running costs (Heating system) as opposed to a one off bill (building fabric)

Anybody who has any level of objectiveness and fairness about themselves (regardless of their job) will push the later case as above.

K

To be fair Kboc ... the only criticism I would have of your set up is that you are hard to please:) There are not many houses of 4,000 sq ft in this country that could be heated (presumably to a comfortable level) for €400 per year. Point it always taken that there are alternative and better ways achieving the result but even if you invested the extra €21k in fabric upgrades you would have needed a builder other professionals who knew what they were doing in order to get to the passive levels spoken of so freely on this forum. In addition, even a passive house needs significant investment in solar technology and hot water storage tanks which is not free either. Anyway glad to hear your system is working well, albeit at a (relatively reasonable) cost.