December Budget

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

Disgraceful post. Ignorant as well.

Anyway moving on....

Are the government going to amend the USC at all? Think when they were in opposiion last year they said it was unfair in some respects and that they would "review it"

The only ignorance here is you thinking that teachers do it for the kids, when have the teachers ever used their clout to do anything other than get more money for themselves. I will be presuming your ignorance to this unless you can provide some proof.

doc_17

Go into any secondary school after school finishes for the dayand you'll see lots of things they do that only benefit the student. Extra classes...musicals....sports....debates..there is no onus on them to do this.

there you go

But I sense there is little point discussing it with you as your mind is made up.

ei.sdraob

doc_17 wrote: »

Go into any secondary school after school finishes for the dayand you'll see lots of things they do that only benefit the student. Extra classes...musicals....sports....debates..

But I sense there is little point discussing it with you as your mind is made up.

Is that the same schools that always ask for "sizable donations" for those things you outlined ... ... and then there are the prefabs

cursai

Nody wrote: »

No matter how you slice it the PS can never bring in wealth to the state directly through taxes, indirect or otherwise comparable to a privately employed person making the same money spending the money the same way.

I intentionally excluded the whole discussion about salary levels as there are enough of other threads about that subject.

Bring in money! Unless your talking about importation or exportation or counterfeiting money abroad. Theres no bringing in money. Its the same money recirculating within the countries economy.

doc_17

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Is that the same schools that always ask for "sizable donations" for those things you outlined ... ... and then there are the prefabs

Sizable donations? Never heard of that one...but then I teach in a disadvantaged rural school where employment in the area is low so there are few families who could afford such a donation.

Do you mean teachers are asking parents for "donations" in order to stay in after school with students?

mikemac

Cut Rent Supplement

A quick google shows me a small family in Dublin can get over nine hundred a month to rent a two bed. You can rent one privatly for less then that and I'm not talking about dives or dodgy areas here

The working person competes with the single person on rent supplement for the bedsit or single room.
The working couple or small family has to compete over the apartments

People have been saying for years it's a floor on the market, the landlords dole

It was cut before, tenants had to pay slightly more but in time rents adjusted and people were encouraged to ask landlords to adjust.
It'll work again

Too many landlords in the Dáil? Well Frank twenty houses Fahy isn't there but there may be others

Irish examiner tells me €500m spent last year.
Even if the councils spent some money of refurbishing the blocked up and empty properties they may be able to create some employment and reduce this bill

caseyann

mikemac wrote: »

Cut Rent Supplement

A quick google shows me a small family in Dublin can get over nine hundred a month to rent a two bed. You can rent one privatly for less then that and I'm not talking about dives or dodgy areas here

The working person competes with the single person on rent supplement for the bedsit or single room.
The working couple or small family has to compete over the apartments

People have been saying for years it's a floor on the market, the landlords dole

It was cut before, tenants had to pay slightly more but in time rents adjusted and people were encouraged to ask landlords to adjust.
It'll work again

Too many landlords in the Dáil? Well Frank twenty houses Fahy isn't there but there may be others

Irish examiner tells me €500m spent last year.
Even if the councils spent some money of refurbishing the blocked up and empty properties they may be able to create some employment and reduce this bill

I agree they could take on people who are on social welfare to help do those houses up and house people in them.That way they would be being paid to do something.But i mean in moderation of the amount they are paid ofc.Cant have someone getting 180 euro a week and being forced to work full time hours.
But they dont do that as has been pointed out already loads of times.There is so many answers and no one doing anything.

p.s rent allowance stuff is red herring,the politicians and developers and the landlords created this wackie amount of money for renting a house.People stuck in a hole paying that and never ever able to be able to buy their own place.

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

Go into any secondary school after school finishes for the dayand you'll see lots of things they do that only benefit the student. Extra classes...musicals....sports....debates..there is no onus on them to do this.

there you go

But I sense there is little point discussing it with you as your mind is made up.

That is done on an ad hoc personal level. What have teachers really campaigned for i.e. getting rid of prefabs, getting rid of rote learning, what are their suggestions to improve our PISA rankings i.e. things that will make a real difference

We only ever hear them looking for money or saying they won't do this, that or whatever.

We will undoubtedly have our own opinions on this but yours will be more biased than mine.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

hatrickpatrick

VAT increases?! WTF???

I thought the general idea was to restore competitiveness and try to bring DOWN prices and end the "rip off republic" era?
Increasing VAT in a recession seems like literally the worst possible budget decision possible.

ianuss

caseyann wrote: »

I agree they could take on people who are on social welfare to help do those houses up and house people in them.That way they would be being paid to do something.

I love this. Is everyone on the dole a tradesman or something?

murphaph

Head The Wall wrote: »

That is done on an ad hoc personal level. What have teachers really campaigned for i.e. getting rid of prefabs, getting rid of rote learning, what are their suggestions to improve our PISA rankings i.e. things that will make a real difference

We only ever hear them looking for money or saying they won't do this, that or whatever.

We will undoubtedly have our own opinions on this but yours will be more biased than mine.

Very true. The only time teachers ever march on the Dail is over money. No marches to address our falling standards of education or to improve facilities.

caseyann

ianuss wrote: »

I love this. Is everyone on the dole a tradesman or something?

Painting and cleaning up houses is pretty easy and dont the council have these people already working for them that are skilled in these positions.So they can teach people how to do it.Or have them help.
I seen houses boarded up and all they need is a good cleaning up and a paint job.But they are allowed to fall into disarray.
And you would be surprised how many painters and brickies and electricians etc.. are on the dole,they may not have certs to prove it but they were trained before the having a degree **** came in.

One of the biggest problems in Ireland is you need a degree to **** now lol

Flex

Increasing taxes and cutting capital expenditure while trying to stimulate growth in the economy, ridiculous. We need a strong economically right wing party in the country who will do whats right for the country as a whole, rather than mollycoddling beneficiaries of exchequer money. I had hoped Fine Gael would step up and provide that. Very disappointing, but not surprising. I think I read that they expect the number of people in employment to increase by 65,000 next year? How can that be believed?

Throughout history Ireland hasnt been very industrious or entrepreneurial. Just thinking of it, the only people in Ireland who did display business acumen were the Irish Protestants in the north-east, who rightly wanted to avoid being stuck in a state with the rest of the island. Irish Catholic mentality seemed/seems to revolve largely around expecting the government to do everything for you, all the while impeding people who attempt to create business (because in Ireland if something helps business or the economy then it *must* be bad for 'society' and has to be shouted down by the assorted concern groups just waiting to come out from under their rocks)

caseyann

Flex wrote: »

Increasing taxes and cutting capital expenditure while trying to stimulate growth in the economy, ridiculous. We need a strong economically right wing party in the country who will do whats right for the country as a whole, rather than mollycoddling beneficiaries of exchequer money. I had hoped Fine Gael would step up and provide that. Very disappointing, but not surprising. I think I read that they expect the number of people in employment to increase by 65,000 next year? How can that be believed?

Throughout history Ireland hasnt been very industrious or entrepreneurial. Just thinking of it, the only people in Ireland who did display business acumen were the Irish Protestants in the north-east, who rightly wanted to avoid being stuck in a state with the rest of the island. Irish Catholic mentality seemed/seems to revolve largely around expecting the government to do everything for you, all the while impeding people who attempt to create business (because in Ireland if something helps business or the economy then it *must* be bad for 'society' and has to be shouted down by the assorted concern groups just waiting to come out from under their rocks)

Well i have heard it all now are you serious? :eek:

_Kaiser_

The most frustrating thing about this of course is that all these "savings", taxes and cuts won't actually do anything to improve matters in Ireland or for the Irish people - it'll be going straight out the door to pay the gambling debts of private institutions and investors, so Enda and co get another "attaboy" from their/our EU masters

Of course, given the drama around Greece and reports (as I saw today on the Euronews channel) that more individuals than companies are filing for bankruptcy in Portugal at the moment, plus the worsening Italian situation, I think we might have been better to put that €3.6 billion on a bet that the Euro won't even be here this time next year!

And ya know what? Despite all the scaremongering about what a default or leaving the EU would do to Ireland (and yes, that said of course it'd be very tough and painful too), it'd still be better than this long drawn-out "death by a thousand cuts" farce we have been enduring the last few years with no end in sight.

BluntGuy

Disappointed, but not all that surprised, to see capital investment as usual taking a disproportionate chunk of the pain. Thoughts were fairly well summed up by other posters earlier on. Talk about missing an opportunity.

The_Thing

waitingforBB wrote: »

Was there a point to this post?

Sorry, should have quoted Vizzy:

Vizzy wrote: »

.....
BTW,on top of being protected by CPA,and having a tracker I'll be getting my increment next week.
Happy days.

ardmacha

murphaph wrote:

Class sizes will increase, rather than cutting pay by 10% and hiring the teachers needed.

The usual rants. Not against wasteful administration or against the money squandered on banks and subsidising landlords, but the usual attempt to manipulate frontline PS salaries for political reasons. As the OECD data indicates Irish teacher salaries in 2009 were less as a proportion of graduate salaries than those in the country where you spend your time, and of course they have been cut since then. Ireland's financial problems are not caused by overspending on education. If we have problems paying teachers, when compared to Germany, it is either because insufficient taxes are being collected or the money is being spent on other things, or both. Three years into the crisis you might expect some reasoned debate on these things, but all we get are the same old rants. Sad.

kippy

Vizzy wrote: »

I'm not here to "help matters"



This is the key to the whole problem though isn't it ?

Whilst there are some in the upper echelons of the PS( and a lot of them were not in the PS at the time i.e bankers) who have a lot to answer for,the ordinary guy (both private and public) will get screwed for the next five budgets.
And all this while we are now paying developers €200K to manage their busted developments.Where can I apply ?
Let the "public service bashers" vent their anger if it makes them feel better but I'm happy in the knowledge that I get up every morning and do a good days work.

So what are you here to do then if you aren't here to help matters?

Wages in this country are still to high, right across the board. While you may get up and do a "good days work" there are many who dont, and no way of finding them, and then getting rid of them.

Its not the key to the whole problem, it just makes taking the cuts all the more difficult and doesnt fill me with confidence that the same mess wont happen again.

fat__tony

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The most frustrating thing about this of course is that all these "savings", taxes and cuts won't actually do anything to improve matters in Ireland or for the Irish people - it'll be going straight out the door to pay the gambling debts of private institutions and investors, so Enda and co get another "attaboy" from their/our EU masters

Of course, given the drama around Greece and reports (as I saw today on the Euronews channel) that more individuals than companies are filing for bankruptcy in Portugal at the moment, plus the worsening Italian situation, I think we might have been better to put that €3.6 billion on a bet that the Euro won't even be here this time next year!

And ya know what? Despite all the scaremongering about what a default or leaving the EU would do to Ireland (and yes, that said of course it'd be very tough and painful too), it'd still be better than this long drawn-out "death by a thousand cuts" farce we have been enduring the last few years with no end in sight.

Agreed.

Look at Iceland for example, they took their pain all in one go, now their economy is growing again (albeit small growth)

Ireland will suffer next to zero growth for the next 8-10 years.

A lost decade.

Its painful and sad to watch, particularly from overseas.

lpjonesy

Social welfare will get the biggest hit at about 1 billion , so cuts to basic rate and rent allowance , fuel allowance and mortgage interest relief , basically they are saying "Leave the country please "

kippy

How much does the rental allowance cost the state?
One would think that with reducing rents and the amount of empty property out there this should be coming down anyway...

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

That is done on an ad hoc personal level. What have teachers really campaigned for i.e. getting rid of prefabs, getting rid of rote learning, what are their suggestions to improve our PISA rankings i.e. things that will make a real difference

We only ever hear them looking for money or saying they won't do this, that or whatever.

We will undoubtedly have our own opinions on this but yours will be more biased than mine.

So "ad hoc personal level" does not count as something teachers have done that was not in their own interests? Bull. Grow up and cop on. And I doubt that I'm more biased than you. You've already being shown to be wrong by saying that teachers do nothing extra for the students.

Ok..The budget of 2008 (one that was brought forward) does not count as teachers trying to use their " clout "? That day saw teachers marching on the Dail protesting cuts that only affected students? OK buddy....dream on....

Blowfish

kippy wrote: »

How much does the rental allowance cost the state?
One would think that with reducing rents and the amount of empty property out there this should be coming down anyway...

As far as I remember it's in the region of €500 million.

[edit] It seems I remembered correctly, though it was for 2009, not sure if it's increased or not for 2010.

mikemac

Can a one off audit be done on departments that are over staffed?

The often mentioned HR department in the HSE is an example, two thousand staff when less then half are needed.

The headcount is going down but that's through attrition.
And realy it's the younger staff who leave, maybe for family or going traveling or to do a masters or something new.
The deadwood stay, I'm not saying the older staff are the deadwood but you have a lot of people set in their ways

Natural attrition is one of the worst ways to reduce headcount. The best and most confident staff leave and the worst staff who would struggle at anything new will hang on

And that's leaving aside certain departments being overstaffed and others being understaffed.
Like if I was stuck in Dublin I might welcome a transfer back home "down da country" .
Most towns in Ireland have social welfare offices and many are understaffed, are they accepting transfers from the HSE? They should be

irishh_bob

lpjonesy wrote: »

Social welfare will get the biggest hit at about 1 billion , so cuts to basic rate and rent allowance , fuel allowance and mortgage interest relief , basically they are saying "Leave the country please "

pensioners wont be touched thouugh , wait and see

mikemac

I'm gearing up for Fr McVerry and the "poorest and most vulnerable in our society" and "in this current economic climate"

It will be a month of misery and crying on Liveline

Now if only I had a euro for every time I heard those phrases on the radio :cool:

flutered

i happened to be a hospital patient last year, to my amusement there was a guy going around with a clipboard, his job he flushed each and every loo in the hospital to check if they were working, what was the total cost of this, first his wages, secondly the cost of the water, then the cost of the electricity to use the lift, to pump the water, to recycle the water, if a loo was not working the user that found it in that condition would inform a nurse, who would inform maintanence.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

The usual rants. Not against wasteful administration or against the money squandered on banks and subsidising landlords, but the usual attempt to manipulate frontline PS salaries for political reasons. As the OECD data indicates Irish teacher salaries in 2009 were less as a proportion of graduate salaries than those in the country where you spend your time, and of course they have been cut since then. Ireland's financial problems are not caused by overspending on education. If we have problems paying teachers, when compared to Germany, it is either because insufficient taxes are being collected or the money is being spent on other things, or both. Three years into the crisis you might expect some reasoned debate on these things, but all we get are the same old rants. Sad.

Teachers shouldn't be hitting 60k+ ardmacha. The hourly rate at that level is astronomical when you factor in the holidays and shorter working week. There's room to maneuver here. I think you know that yourself.

The public service does actually need admin staff of course, just not as many. The people who pay your wages are PS admin, not frontline staff but are required for a functioning PS. We just can't afford either admin or front line staff at the current rates. Same goes for welfare, can't be afforded at current rates and this coming budget will (already admitted) see reductions in some of the non-headline social welfare payments.

I've put the bit in bold because I am (and have never hidden the fact) a landlord with tenants on rent supplement (they've been in situ since before the "crisis" began, when most landlords turned RS tenants away). I had to reduce the rent last time supplement was reduced and I still believe rent supplement should be reduced significantly-perhaps cut in half from current rates. Working people are competing for housing with those receiving large state support. I know full well that in calling for rent supplement to be reduced that I am calling for a measure that will directly reduce my income-but Ireland can't afford rent supplement at current rates anymore than it can afford anything else, PS salaries or whatever.

I really don't know what FG (and the Troika) are playing at. They are as already mentioned waiting for the private sector growth fairy to drag Ireland's ass out of the deficit. It is an incredibly risky strategy and with a possible/likely global downturn coming due to Italian debt, exporting our way out of our deficit problems simply will be impossible. At that point, the CPA will be gone and instead of targeted wage cuts being planned carefully now and implemented over the coming couple of years, pay will again be cut (probably much more, as in Greece) in an indiscriminate manner.

mikemac

flutered wrote: »

i happened to be a hospital patient last year, to my amusement there was a guy going around with a clipboard, his job he flushed each and every loo in the hospital to check if they were working, what was the total cost of this, first his wages, secondly the cost of the water, then the cost of the electricity to use the lift, to pump the water, to recycle the water, if a loo was not working the user that found it in that condition would inform a nurse, who would inform maintanence.

You could do a lap of a hospital in an hour or two

Probably just a porter who did that once a week, porters are not busy all the time so maybe just a scheduled job

I hope so anyway

If he did that all day every day he'd go mad within a week

km79

irishh_bob wrote: »

lpjonesy wrote: »

Social welfare will get the biggest hit at about 1 billion , so cuts to basic rate and rent allowance , fuel allowance and mortgage interest relief , basically they are saying "Leave the country please "

pensioners wont be touched thouugh , wait and see

Given that Fine Gael promised to increase MIR I'd be amazed if they reduce it...

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

As the OECD data indicates Irish teacher salaries in 2009 were less as a proportion of graduate salaries than those in the country where you spend your time

The countries beating us in as generally regarded as among the richest in the world tho.
Germany, South Korea, Switzerland, Luxembourg = Rich
Then Ireland=most indebted country in the world.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/international-economics/

and of course they have been cut since then.

According to the public servants in this thread - they are still getting their increments.
Open to correction here but I assume they've already been compensated numerous times for whatever non-pension related cuts they had?

Ireland's financial problems are not caused by overspending on education.

Agree, you are correct, it's caused by overspending on wages.


http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023115.shtml
Education at a Glance 2011: The flagship education publication of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which was published on Tuesday, says 71% of Irish spending is absorbed by pay compared with a 63% average among its 31 mainly developed country members in 2008.

Ireland's overall spending as a proportion of GDP (gross domestic product) was at 27th of the 31 OECD countries.

Last year, the results of the OECD's PISA international assessment of 15 year olds, showed Ireland's literacy ranking plunged from 5th to 19th and results in maths and science were below average.

Pay of Irish primary level teachers was the second highest among 33 countries in 2008. Secondary teachers were the third or fourth best paid in the OECD.

The 2008 data was before the 2009 cuts in public service pay cut of 6% and a rise in pension contributions by payments 7%.


It states there that Irish Primary level teachers were the 2nd highest before the 2009 cuts, a reduction of 6%.
I presume this cut has been virtually fully restored, with the ongoing increments?

If we have problems paying teachers, when compared to Germany, it is either because insufficient taxes are being collected or the money is being spent on other things, or both.

Or both of those and because we are attempting to pay them too much?
Or because we are trying to pay too many employees too much?
Why did you rule that out?

Solutions:
1. Collect more tax (problem being we're in economic freefall - not viable)
2. Reduce wasteful spending (problem being unions preventing reform)
3. Reduce the amount paid to employees
or
4. Continue to pay the same amount, but Reduce the number of employees

Three years into the crisis you might expect some reasoned debate on these things, but all we get are the same old rants. Sad.

Well, I am willing to hold my hand up and admit to my own screw ups.

I encouraged a lot of people to vote Fine Gael.
Based on the economically retarded proposals we are hearing now, we may aswell have voted for Labour.

I think Morgan Kelly summed it up best:

My stating the simple fact that the Government has driven Ireland over the brink of insolvency should not be taken as a tacit endorsement of the Opposition. The stark lesson of the last 30 years is that, while Fianna Fáil’s record of economic management has been decidedly mixed, that of the various Fine Gael coalitions has been uniformly dismal.
Morgan Kelly

carm

irishh_bob wrote: »

pensioners wont be touched thouugh , wait and see

They've already been cut. Last September - both the "household benefits package" and fuel allowance was cut.

maddragon

mikemac wrote: »

You could do a lap of a hospital in an hour or two

Probably just a porter who did that once a week, porters are not busy all the time so maybe just a scheduled job

I hope so anyway

If he did that all day every day he'd go mad within a week

He'ld be fairly pissed off alright.

irishh_bob

carm wrote: »

They've already been cut. Last September - both the "household benefits package" and fuel allowance was cut.

heard of the fuel allowance , wasnt familiar with the other one , thier are so many perks , its hard to keep track

ardmacha

Pay of Irish primary level teachers was the second highest among 33 countries in 2008. Secondary teachers were the third or fourth best paid in the OECD.

The 2008 data was before the 2009 cuts in public service pay cut of 6% and a rise in pension contributions by payments 7%.

It states there that Irish Primary level teachers were the 2nd highest before the 2009 cuts, a reduction of 6%.

It actually states that there was was cut of 13%, under two different names. Teacher's cut was a bit more than that.

I presume this cut has been virtually fully restored, with the ongoing increments?

I think you have limited understanding of the situation. Increments do not affect pay scales, they represent movement along a scale. Of course some teachers have also been hired on a new lower scale.

On the broader point of government strategy, they are continuing to reduce the deficit. As they continue to do so, the remaining deficit becomes more a reflection of the business cycle than a structural one. At this point Ireland is doing as well as anywhere else in the Euro zone. This means two things Firstly, we are not as isolated as we were and are more likely to benefit from general policies on interest rates and bank support. Secondly demand in the Euro area is suppressed, but in the nature of things it will bounce a bit in a year or so, this is the time to cut when exports can avail of this increased demand.

woodoo

Noonan won't rule out cuts to social welfare. So i'd imagine that will be hit in the budget

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/noonan-fails-to-rule-out-cuts-in-social-welfare-2926703.html

Blowfish

ardmacha wrote: »

On the broader point of government strategy, they are continuing to reduce the deficit. As they continue to do so, the remaining deficit becomes more a reflection of the business cycle than a structural one. At this point Ireland is doing as well as anywhere else in the Euro zone. This means two things Firstly, we are not as isolated as we were and are more likely to benefit from general policies on interest rates and bank support. Secondly demand in the Euro area is suppressed, but in the nature of things it will bounce a bit in a year or so, this is the time to cut when exports can avail of this increased demand.

Given that we are the most indebted nation per capita in the world, that's a pretty amazing statement to make.

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

It actually states that there was was cut of 13%, under two different names. Teacher's cut was a bit more than that.

That was why I typed "non-pension" related cuts.
Here, I will underline it for you.

dannyboy83 wrote:

Open to correction here but I assume they've already been compensated numerous times for whatever non-pension related cuts they had?

Pay cut = 6%
Pension cut = 7%

I might be able to simplify it a bit more.
Income 2009 = x - 6%
Income 2011 = x - 6% + ( y ) I]Where Y equals the increments from 2009 to present day[/I


This would mean someone could actually have a greater net income now, than before the cuts, and will inevitably be the case as (2009 + t) progresses.

Is this wrong?

I think you have limited understanding of the situation. Increments do not affect pay scales, they represent movement along a scale.

Yes, I was referring to movement along the scale.

Person A who earned €32k took a paycut to €30,080 but now earns €33k, following increments since 2009.
Are you saying this is not possible?

Hypothetically speaking we can discuss a teacher who was on Pay Scale A and is now on Pay Scale B, but I would find that irrational - it's like discussing a Chief Financial Officer who was on €200k p.a. during the Celtic Pyramid and is now on €100k p.a. during the Celtic Collapse.

Of course some teachers have also been hired on a new lower scale.

There has been a hiring freeze in areas of the public service for some time.
I would imagine the proportion of teachers hired on the new lower scale is almost insignificant?

On the broader point of government strategy, they are continuing to reduce the deficit.

As they continue to do so, the remaining deficit becomes more a reflection of the business cycle than a structural one. At this point Ireland is doing as well as anywhere else in the Euro zone. This means two things Firstly, we are not as isolated as we were and are more likely to benefit from general policies on interest rates and bank support. Secondly demand in the Euro area is suppressed, but in the nature of things it will bounce a bit in a year or so, this is the time to cut when exports can avail of this increased demand.

I think it is this type of thinking which is really the crux so many people have with the issue. In particular the approach to 'demand in the eurozone'.

Your assertion is that demand will naturally recover and us along with it.
That blindly ignores the policies being advocated.

Domestic demand has already collapsed so drastically to the point that we are a case study. The policies being advocated will actually strangle this demand even further (driving all private enterprise away from Ireland).

The reason for this strangulation is a different gripe; that is, to maintain our already wildly imbalanced state sector spending (PS+SW+Gov Exp etc.)

In order for your proposal to succeed, we need to be able to levy taxes on businesses operating outside Ireland.

kippy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That was why I typed "non-pension" related cuts.
Here, I will underline it for you.



Pay cut = 6%
Pension cut = 7%

I might be able to simplify it a bit more.
Income 2009 = x - 6%
Income 2011 = x - 6% + ( y ) I]Where Y equals the increments from 2009 to present day[/I


This would mean someone could actually have a greater net income now, than before the cuts, and will inevitably be the case as (2009 + t) progresses.

Is this wrong?


Yes, I was referring to movement along the scale.

Person A who earned €32k took a paycut to €30,080 but now earns €33k, following increments since 2009.
Are you saying this is not possible?

Hypothetically speaking we can discuss a teacher who was on Pay Scale A and is now on Pay Scale B, but I would find that irrational - it's like discussing a Chief Financial Officer who was on €200k p.a. during the Celtic Pyramid and is now on €100k p.a. during the Celtic Collapse.


There has been a hiring freeze in areas of the public service for some time.
I would imagine the proportion of teachers hired on the new lower scale is almost insignificant?




I think it is this type of thinking which is really the crux so many people have with the issue. In particular the approach to 'demand in the eurozone'.

Your assertion is that demand will naturally recover and us along with it.
That blindly ignores the policies being advocated.

Domestic demand has already collapsed so drastically to the point that we are a case study. The policies being advocated will actually strangle this demand even further (driving all private enterprise away from Ireland).

The reason for this strangulation is a different gripe; that is, to maintain our already wildly imbalanced state sector spending (PS+SW+Gov Exp etc.)

In order for your proposal to succeed, we need to be able to levy taxes on businesses operating outside Ireland.

First of all let me say I do not agree with the incremental system in it's current format. The payment of increments without any level of goal setting on the individual or organisation level, performance reviews and meaningful methods to cut the salary/warn/fire are completely pointless and can lead to an atmosphere of entitlement, laziness and lack of ingenuity/will to work harder. The pay system (as well of course as the pay levels) are a major reason the public service is as inefficient as it is in certain areas.

After getting that out of the way, I do hate to see misconceptions getting peddled as fact.

1. Not everyone in the public service is on an incremental scale that goes up to or above 60K
2. Incremental levels do stop.....ie, once you reach the top of the scale for your role, thats it, you dont get any more increments.
3. You may have to wait on the top of one scale for a number of years before moving into the next.

It is very unlikely that the net salary of a civil servant is better now than it was in 2009 *althought there may be a few cases*
The main reason is the taxation that has been applied in the meantime. While increments MAY have meant the gross is not close to what it was before 2009 their net is probably a few thousand less due to the USC, Changes in tax credits and changes in taxation itself.

Teaching is one of the areas where the hiring freeze hasnt been applied totally I believe and some new teachers have started on the new scale, but yes the numbers are probably low enough in comparision to the total pool.

I've had pretty long post before the last couple of year before the various budgets on what could be done to improve matters and my opinions havent really changed that much however improving HR function in the public service is key to any "transformation" that happens there.

murphaph

kippy wrote: »

It is very unlikely that the net salary of a civil servant is better now than it was in 2009 *althought there may be a few cases*
The main reason is the taxation that has been applied in the meantime. While increments MAY have meant the gross is not close to what it was before 2009 their net is probably a few thousand less due to the USC, Changes in tax credits and changes in taxation itself

Not a direct attack on your post as I agree largely with it but the gross pay of the majority of public servants (ie, those not at the top of their payscale) will have by now increased beyond the gross pay they were on before the implementation of the cut & pension levy (which was a carefully crafted paycut designed not to impinge on retired politicians' pensions I imagine).

Workers outside the protected ranks of the public sector will on average have seen their gross reduced AND have had the taxes you mentioned applied to this reduced gross.

I suppose it keeps boiling down to this however:
We have a 12.6bn current deficit which is unsustainable. We can introduce some new stealth taxes to a point and I am prepared to pay more (in principle), especially in more sustainable taxes based on property.

However, there is absolutely no way we can increase tax revenues by ca. 40%, in a period of very slow growth, which is what would be needed to close the deficit. It's completely impossible and I doubt any open economy has ever done so. Spending must be tackled.

Given that, there are 2 large blocks of expenditure:
The public sector wage bill
Social Welfare

It is simply not realistic to think we can reduce current spending without reducing those somehow. The government will IMO almost certainly make further cuts to social welfare, if not the base payments then things like rent supplement and some of the myriad of "extras" that the more skilled social welfare "careerists" tend to receive.

So, should all the savings come from reducing social welfare or should public sector pay not also be on the agenda? How long can we kick this can down the road waiting for the growth fairy?

(We can dream that the PS will magically reform itself and deliver so many new efficiencies that no paycuts will be needed but it's not likely)

Gumbo

murphaph wrote: »

Not a direct attack on your post as I agree largely with it but the gross pay of the majority of public servants (ie, those not at the top of their payscale) will have by now increased beyond the gross pay they were on before the implementation of the cut & pension levy (which was a carefully crafted paycut designed not to impinge on retired politicians' pensions I imagine).

For the average PS employee, you are wrong im afraid. Even after increments, gross pay is still down on pre cuts, levies, new taxes etc.

You do realise that the average person in the PS gets increments of a couple of hundred euro, not 000's as you may want everybody to believe. My last increment was €407 per year extra.

Whether increments are right or wrong is for another argument, im not here to dispute that at this stage.

murphaph wrote: »

Workers outside the protected ranks of the public sector will on average have seen their gross reduced AND have had the taxes you mentioned applied to this reduced gross.

while this may be true for some, its also untru for alot more, there are many many people still getting bonus, pay rises etc that goes unheard of. Dunnes Stores is still honouring their increment scale to employees, i knowm ebay/paypal are also honouring it too.

so its not right to try convince people that everybody in the private sectore have taken all the hits.

Squall19

kceire wrote: »

while this may be true for some, its also untru for alot more, there are many many people still getting bonus, pay rises etc that goes unheard of. Dunnes Stores is still honouring their increment scale to employees, i knowm ebay/paypal are also honouring it too.

so its not right to try convince people that everybody in the private sectore have taken all the hits.

Important point.

Those companies are doing well!!

Your company the goverment are doing ****!

When a private company is doing ****, out come the pay cuts, bonuses, increments, half the staff are let go, everything is scaled down, one person has to do a two man job, productivity of staff has to rise or no future.

Has to be some kind of social equilibrium,competitiveness, value for money.

What do we have?

Is it right?

daltonmd

texidub wrote: »

Public AND private sector wages are bloated in this country. Fact. The entire economy is bloated and noncompetitive. Teachers on 60K +?? I know people making programmes for tg4 (programmes that are watched by less than 30,000 people, mind) who earn 2K a week. I know a fella who stacks pieces of paper for a multinational --literally, nothing more, nothing less-- who takes home 800+ a week after tax. Wasn't the editor of the Irish Times the fourth best paid newspaper editor in the world?

Contrast: I know people making tv programs in the US that are watched by millions who take home less than people in TG4. I know people writing for publications that are read by millions in the US --AND worldwide-- who couldn't even dream of earning what the editor of the Irish Times --a completely inconsequential, non-entity of a paper-- earns.

And what is that all based on? Irish ingenuity? Our limitless natural resources? Our huge and creative population? Colonial power? Military power? Financial influence? No. It *was* based on credit. Now it's based on a sense of entitlement.

What I don't understand is this: economies are relative (it doesn't matter if you earn one euro a week if it costs 90 cents a week to live here), so why can't someone come in and slash everything --public AND private sector wages-- AND the cost of living? If that means telling banks to eff off re: the value of current mortgages and loans, then pity about them. If that means fewer fancy imports then pity about you.

As for the public sector people here boasting about the state of their financial affairs.. I know you feel persecuted and unappreciated but being obnoxious really doesn't help your case. You ARE overpaid. You DO live on a small, unimportant island with feck all natural resources. The Irish education system is no great shakes, so the 'educated workforce' stuff only works if you want to compare us to places where the education system is truly awful. Ireland doesn't have much to offer the world. Fact.

Open your eyes to what Ireland really is in the scheme of things and you'll see that really, in global terms, people here should probably be earning LESS than people in most countries on earth. BUT since economies are relative that wouldn't matter if someone with the the balls to do so would come in and reduce living costs across the board.

Great post.

Everything needs to be slashed. We have to regroup and start again. It is absolutely obscene that peoples disposable income is being slashed while it still costs at least 50 euro to visit a doctor.


Normal working people are going to have to find an extra 600 Euro (at least) in 2012, or 50e a month.
http://www.herald.ie/news/euro600-stealth-taxes-will-hit-families-in-budget-2926888.html

Squall19

daltonmd wrote: »

It is absolutely obscene that peoples disposable income is being slashed while it still costs at least 50 euro to visit a doctor.


http://www.herald.ie/news/euro600-stealth-taxes-will-hit-families-in-budget-2926888.html

That is mad, I have a job yet I cant afford the dentist.

It's the same in every country though, I was in Poland in the doctors and he charged my polish friend 100 zloty ( around 25 euro ) for a visit to get a prescription.

Average wage is 500 euro a month there.

daltonmd

Squall19 wrote: »

That is mad, I have a job yet I cant afford the dentist.

It's the same in every country though, I was in Poland in the doctors and he charged my polish friend 100 zloty ( around 25 euro ) for a visit to get a prescription.

Average wage is 500 euro a month there.

Well I can't comment on your friend or his illness, but it is not the same everywhere. In the UK for example Doctor visits are free on the NHS.

ardmacha

Pay cut = 6%
Pension cut = 7%

I might be able to simplify it a bit more.
Income 2009 = x - 6%
Income 2011 = x - 6% + ( y ) [Where Y equals the increments from 2009 to present day]

These calculations are interesting, if rather simplified. But are irrelevant to the discussion. My original point was that Irish teachers in 2009 had salaries that were a smaller proportion of general Irish salaries than a German teacher's was of general German salaries in 2009. Irish teachers had a cut in salary since then. As German teachers also have a scale and as a German teacher has also progressed along that scale the fact that the Irish teacher has done so is irrelevant to this discussion.

On the general point of increments, teachers are a particular case as they have a long scale with many increments. Many parts of the PS have shorter scales with multiple grades and you have to be promoted to a higher grade to start receiving increments again. So quite a large proportion of people may be at the top of their scale. There is a case for a checkpoint or two for teachers as well.

bbsrs

Squall19 wrote: »

Important point.

Those companies are doing well!!

Your company the goverment are doing ****!

When a private company is doing ****, out come the pay cuts, bonuses, increments, half the staff are let go, everything is scaled down, one person has to do a two man job, productivity of staff has to rise or no future.

Has to be some kind of social equilibrium,competitiveness, value for money.

What do we have?

Is it right?

Good reply.

n97 mini

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

O/T perhaps (and not directly aimed at n97 mini but s/he's provided the example) but FFS!!!

Doesn't apply to me as I live in a housing estate.

I'm wondering can other people fudge it. You will have the Irish Rural Dwellers Alliance up in arms if property tax is based on site valuations, unless there is some legal way to dodge it if the system has been fudged.

We had a property tax before, and it was so fudged that it cost more to administer than it brought it.