Chronicles of a fish: the days of surf and turf

ecoli

Super training at the moment keep it up and there will be some well earned great performances

Dory Dory

ecoli wrote: »

Super training at the moment keep it up and there will be some well earned great performances

Wow. Coming from you, I am humbled and will take it to heart. Thank you very much. I will absolutely do my best.

Dory Dory

20 mile run

Today was my first of five 20 mile training runs before my marathon in April, and the thing I was most concerned about going into this run this morning was the weather. I love to run in the heat, so conversely I don't love to run in the cold....and this morning it was cold - 27 degrees and windy when I started out at 8:30 this morning. The temperature climbed to 34 (and still windy) when I finished 3 hours later.....BUT, I had my cold weather running gear on and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised at how delightful it was running on the greenway with the sun coming up and with only me, the ducks, and a few old men enjoying this quiet time of day.

I knew going into this run that I was going to have to make a concerted effort to slow my pace down to be more in line with the prescribed 9:45 pace per mile, and I knew the benefits/reasons for going at that slower pace for they were explained to me here last Saturday. The good news is, I did slow my pace down on average by probably 30 to 40 seconds per mile for the bulk of the run, but the bad news is, I was still faster than prescribed. I will continue to work on this each week.

Over all, this run felt great. When doing an endurance type activity, I definitely get into a comfortable place and try to have it carry me forward. I don't know if that makes sense, but my strategy always seems to be to expend as little energy as possible doing the activity by allowing the mechanics and momentum to do most of the work. Again, I don't know if that makes sense...I'm probably not articulating it properly. In any event, I felt good enough on this run that thoughts of doing an ultra distance event at some point crossed my mind.

Raccoon Queen did make one suggestion that I followed. She suggested I go the first 17 miles at the slower, prescribed pace, then if I wanted to see what I had left in the tank, speed it up for the last 3 miles. I did just that - upped the pace at mile 18...then even more on 19....and gave it one last boost on the 20th mile. Was I surprised at how much I had left in the tank? Yes. Did I have thoughts of puking halfway through the last mile at sprint speed? Yes.

Laps as follows:
8:29, 8:58, 8:59, 9:05, 9:08, 9:09, 9:07, 9:07, 9:04, 9:09, 9:11, 9:10, 9:10, 9:14, 9:01, 9:14, 9:05, 8:45, 8:27, 7:33, 3:01 (cool down @ 10:41)
Total: 20.3 miles, 3:02:15

A few additional comments/disclosures - I stopped for water and jelly beans at about miles 10 and 17....and did avoid one section of hills that I sometimes do. I still faced some good hills and took them handy, so I am gaining confidence in that regard. Cardiovascular-wise I am strong, it will be fatigue in my legs that I will have to watch as my weak spot. Still need to venture into the world of energy gels and such.

DULLAHAN2

Dory Dory wrote: »

20 mile run

Today was my first of five 20 mile training runs before my marathon in April, and the thing I was most concerned about going into this run this morning was the weather. I love to run in the heat, so conversely I don't love to run in the cold....and this morning it was cold - 27 degrees and windy when I started out at 8:30 this morning. The temperature climbed to 34 (and still windy) when I finished 3 hours later.....BUT, I had my cold weather running gear on and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised at how delightful it was running on the greenway with the sun coming up and with only me, the ducks, and a few old men enjoying this quiet time of day.

I am totally the opposite to you in that regards, i love to run in the cold more than the heat. Hate the heat!!

RayCun

What are you basing your marathon target time on? Maybe it's too soft?
(Although I suppose you should wait a couple of days and see how your next runs feel before judging the ease of today's run)

Dory Dory

RayCun wrote: »

What are you basing your marathon target time on? Maybe it's too soft?
(Although I suppose you should wait a couple of days and see how your next runs feel before judging the ease of today's run)

I am basing it on my last half marathon time of 1:45 that I did at the end of September. I did a quick calculation with the McMillan calculator with that half marathon time, and I used the formula: double your half marathon time and add 20 minutes. Both come out to approximately 3:50 for my marathon time. I'll see how I feel over the next few days.....and I'll see how the next few long runs go, which I will try to keep "slow" because I am starting to understand the benefits of and reasons why. I do appreciate all the help. Thanks very much.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Some savage work going on here of late Dory just make sure to take a recovery week soon and take it serious otherwise you may suffer burnout and start to struggle on your key workouts.

Good 20miler by the way.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Dory Dory wrote: »

I am basing it on my last half marathon time of 1:45 that I did at the end of September. I did a quick calculation with the McMillan calculator with that half marathon time, and I used the formula: double your half marathon time and add 20 minutes. Both come out to approximately 3:50 for my marathon time. I'll see how I feel over the next few days.....and I'll see how the next few long runs go, which I will try to keep "slow" because I am starting to understand the benefits of and reasons why. I do appreciate all the help. Thanks very much.

Just on this it may be helpful to do an LTHR test to see where you are at right now. Based on your threshold pace you could work out a sustainable pace for the marathon distance as i would expect you have moved on a lot further since September.

Oryx

Correction: I do not know how to train correctly on a turbo trainer

Dory Dory

Odin Drab Firefighter wrote: »

Just on this it may be helpful to do an LTHR test to see where you are at right now. Based on your threshold pace you could work out a sustainable pace for the marathon distance as i would expect you have moved on a lot further since September.

Not sure what LTHR stands for. I assume it has to do with heart rate? I do have a heart rate monitor with my Garmin that I rarely use because I usually have it cinched too tight because it feels like it's going to fall off. I can give it another whirl and loosen it if you think there is value in using it. I'll just need a little help in understanding the results.

Dory Dory

Oryx wrote: »

Correction: I do not know how to train correctly on a turbo trainer

You are up WAY past your bedtime!

Dory Dory

Odin Drab Firefighter wrote: »

Some savage work going on here of late Dory just make sure to take a recovery week soon and take it serious otherwise you may suffer burnout and start to struggle on your key workouts.

Burnout....yes, thank you. I am familiar with burnout and it's crossed my mind to pace myself better as I know I am going great guns at the moment. I did take Friday totally off and my body thanked me immensely, but feel free to remind me from time to time if I need to ease it up a bit.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Dory Dory wrote: »

Burnout....yes, thank you. I am familiar with burnout and it's crossed my mind to pace myself better as I know I am going great guns at the moment. I did take Friday totally off and my body thanked me immensely, but feel free to remind me from time to time if I need to ease it up a bit.

I am more thinking of 2/3 weeks hard work and a step back/recovery week rather than just a rest day. A rest day alone will not give you the recovery you require. I know myself after a few weeks hard work and quality sessions the body needs that recovery week to avoid injury or burnout.

On the LTHR - what you want to do is establish your Lactate Threshold pace/hr and based on this you will set your HR zones. Test would be 10min wu, some build work to get the legs moving and then into a 30min tt best effort, literally you should be dying a death towards the end and warm down. By establishing your hr zones you will not be restricted by pace and more by effort/hr and should get a better return on your training.

Dory Dory

And speaking of burnout and pacing myself....:o.......I almost forgot about the 15 relatively easy miles I did on the trainer tonight.

15 miles in 63 minutes.....14.29 mph.

Dory Dory

Odin Drab Firefighter wrote: »

I am more thinking of 2/3 weeks hard work and a step back/recovery week rather than just a rest day. A rest day alone will not give you the recovery you require. I know myself after a few weeks hard work and quality sessions the body needs that recovery week to avoid injury or burnout.

On the LTHR - what you want to do is establish your Lactate Threshold pace/hr and based on this you will set your HR zones. Test would be 10min wu, some build work to get the legs moving and then into a 30min tt best effort, literally you should be dying a death towards the end and warm down. By establishing your hr zones you will not be restricted by pace and more by effort/hr and should get a better return on your training.

2/3 weeks hard then step back....got it. Thanks!

Dying a death is only exceeded in fun by dying a SLOW death. Gag. Okay....I will see what I can do in this regard. First it was intervals and tempos, now it's a vomit inducing tt........grumble...grumble...

menoscemo

People who run their long runs too fast, generally slow right down for their last few miles. The fact that you had no problem speeding right up over the last 3 miles of your 20 miler would seem to suggest your target is way too soft. It looks like you are in 3:30ish shape (at least) to me.

digger2d2

Dory Dory wrote: »

20 mile run

Today was my first of five 20 mile training runs before my marathon in April, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised at how delightful it was running on the greenway with the sun coming up and with only me, the ducks, and a few old men enjoying this quiet time of day.

But myself and Meno were running in Dublin with other Boardsies
Strong last few miles, well done!

catweazle

Great running - while I was surprised that your recent shorter races weren't faster (admittedly going the right way might help that). You seem to come into your own over the long stuff. Any races that are 10 - 13 miles races coming up in your area soon? Might be a good way to see if you need to reassess your goal time. Perhaps replace one one of the 20 milers for it, 4 x 20 miles is more than enough to accommodate slipping in one race perhaps.

Dory Dory

menoscemo wrote: »

People who run their long runs too fast, generally slow right down for their last few miles. The fact that you had no problem speeding right up over the last 3 miles of your 20 miler would seem to suggest your target is way too soft. It looks like you are in 3:30ish shape (at least) to me.

Oh god...3:30? (the sound you are hearing is me choking on that suggestion) I think that's a bit ambitious....but we'll see. I'm also wondering if I just naturally train at near-race-pace? Thus resulting in not much difference between the two.

digger2d2 wrote: »

But myself and Meno were running in Dublin with other Boardsies
Strong last few miles, well done!

Ahhh...but do you boys run with canes?? These old men definitely had canes! Oh, and they had Ipods too! Canes and Ipods!

catweazle wrote: »

Great running - while I was surprised that your recent shorter races weren't faster (admittedly going the right way might help that). You seem to come into your own over the long stuff. Any races that are 10 - 13 miles races coming up in your area soon? Might be a good way to see if you need to reassess your goal time. Perhaps replace one one of the 20 milers for it, 4 x 20 miles is more than enough to accommodate slipping in one race perhaps.

I definitely feel I am a comparatively stronger runner at longer distances...my last two shorter distance races were in the toilet (wrong turn and all! ) And you may be right - perhaps I will see if there is a 10 to 13 mile race in the next month so I can get a better handle on where I really am. Thanks!

RacoonQueen

catweazle wrote: »

Great running - while I was surprised that your recent shorter races weren't faster (admittedly going the right way might help that). You seem to come into your own over the long stuff. Any races that are 10 - 13 miles races coming up in your area soon? Might be a good way to see if you need to reassess your goal time. Perhaps replace one one of the 20 milers for it, 4 x 20 miles is more than enough to accommodate slipping in one race perhaps.

Yep, agree with this. As I said last week, really think you need either a race or a time trial to see if you need to adjust your marathon target. At the same time, it's your first marathon so you don't want to set it too high either.

You're not supposed to be absolutely whacked at the end of a long run, it's supposed to be done at an easy pace unless it has pmp miles in it or has some other type of workout built into it. 8:45 - 9 minute miles will probably be perfect for you for long run pace and you should still be able to chat throughout.

Do any of the long runs in your plan have PMP miles in them?

shotgunmcos

Nice job on the first 20 miler DD. Agree with Meno, you are in 3:35-3:40 shape at the moment IMO. Perhaps establish 8 mins as a planned marathon pace and introduce PMP miles towards the end of your second longest run of the week. No more than a third of your run. If going well, introduce them to your long runs. Just an idea...

Did you do the mammoth swim?

Dory Dory

First let me say, all of you folks are total class for helping me.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yep, agree with this. As I said last week, really think you need either a race or a time trial to see if you need to adjust your marathon target. At the same time, it's your first marathon so you don't want to set it too high either.

You're not supposed to be absolutely whacked at the end of a long run, it's supposed to be done at an easy pace unless it has pmp miles in it or has some other type of workout built into it. 8:45 - 9 minute miles will probably be perfect for you for long run pace and you should still be able to chat throughout.

Do any of the long runs in your plan have PMP miles in them?

I can still chat at 8:45 - 9:00....and yes, there are one or two long runs at PMP pace in the plan, but I've already gone below my current targeted PMP (8:45) in the previous 3 long runs (not yesterday's run, but the 3 prior to that - 13 miles, 15 miles, 17 miles....all around 8:30-8:40). And I totally agree with you about this being my first marathon and all that comes with that. Thanks.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Nice job on the first 20 miler DD. Agree with Meno, you are in 3:35-3:40 shape at the moment IMO. Perhaps establish 8 mins as a planned marathon pace and introduce PMP miles towards the end of your second longest run of the week. No more than a third of your run. If going well, introduce them to your long runs. Just an idea...

Did you do the mammoth swim?

Thanks for the advice on the runs. My marathon plan calls for three key runs each week - interval, tempo, long run - and then either recovery runs or cross training (or rest) the other days of the week. Soooo....I guess I really only have the one long run to play with that 8 min/mile scenario??

Swim session complete! And not to worry...I did the math before I dove into the pool and there was no earthly way for me to leap-frog over you in swimming. You can sleep well tonight. In fact, you can sleep well until my pool is openend in a few months...then game on!! Swim report is next.

Dory Dory

Swim Session

Headed out for the hour long drive to the pool and arrived just prior to their noon opening to find a huge number of anxious kids and their distracted parents waiting for the doors of the facility to be unlocked. This didn't look good - too many rug rats. I like my own lane as I have grown accustomed to not having to share. Once inside, I quickly tossed off my clothes and sprinted to the pool to claim my lane. Yes! One all to myself....for the first hour....then there was great confusion because a swim team was starting their practice at 1 o'clock and they would need all but 4 lanes. Boo. Down with the Sunday swim team practice. Shouldn't they all be in church any way? I had to move to a crappy gutter lane with a crappy lane line and I had to share it with an older, larger woman in a yellow swim cap who warned me that I'd have to look out for her because she might be all over the place. Yay me! The good news is that this woman was quite sweet and she was from Italy....and I only had to get out of her way a few times.

Overall this swim was okay....and it was only okay because of the lane issues and because I woke up with a stiff neck and because I'm trying to play SBR catchup. My upper body definitely fatigued by the end of this long session, and I realized at around the two hour mark that 90 minute swim sessions are of a better quality than 2 plus hour sessions. It totally stinks that pool access is so difficult for me at this time, and I may have to let go of the idea that I can stay competitive in the SBR swim category until my pool is open in a few months, and that resolution is killing me because swimming is my strongest discipline.

I swam for 2 hours 30 minutes....and tallied 8,000 yards that I can account for. I say that because when I hopped out of the pool I was confident I had 8,500 in the books, but now that I sit down and go over the session, I can only come up with 8,000. I think I am missing 2 x 250 free, but since I can't say that with 100% certainty, then I can't count it.

2500 free
2 x 500 kick
2 x 500 pull
250 kick, 250 pull
200 kick, 200 pull
150 kick, 150 pull
100 kick, 100 pull
50 kick, 50 pull
5 x 100 free
500 kick
100 pull
100 free
500 kick
300 cool down free/breast

I definitely zoned out swimming this long today and I think the break point in the quality of this session was at around 2 hours. After that, I was just putting in time and crap yards. I think I learned a lesson today.

shotgunmcos

Dory Dory wrote: »

Swim Session


I swam for 2 hours 30 minutes....and tallied 8,000 yards

2500 free
2 x 500 kick
2 x 500 pull
250 kick, 250 pull
200 kick, 200 pull
150 kick, 150 pull
100 kick, 100 pull
50 kick, 50 pull
5 x 100 free
500 kick
100 pull
100 free
500 kick
300 cool down free/breast

.

:eek: just :eek: and :eek:

BTH

I'm counting 2750yards of kick? My legs are crying just thinking about it..

Dory Dory

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

I'm counting 2750yards of kick? My legs are crying just thinking about it..

But it was my upper body that was screaming bloody murder! (I'm all legs when it comes to strength - upper body, not so much.)

Dory Dory

Interval Run

Tough going, but got it done.

2 miles easy
3 x (1 mile at 7:14 pace, 1 min rest)
5 miles easy

10 miles total in 92.5 minutes at 9:15 min/mile


Trainer

My legs are definitely getting stronger. (But are my thighs getting bigger?? :eek:)

10 miles in 40 minutes at 15 mph


Highlights of tonight's session: my two cats came downstairs during my treadmill-to-bike transition to offer their moral support, and I thought my thighs were going to explode while briefly dabbling in some crazy fast spinning.

Dory Dory

90 minutes of yoga done.

A couple of questions for anyone who wants to chime in:

1) What is the likelihood that I will have to stop and take a loo break durning my marathon....and how stressful is that break with respect to it wasting precious time during the run?

2) If the water at the stations are in paper cups, what is the best way to drink the water - stop/slow down....or slurp it best I can on the run? (Is there any benefit to slowing down/stopping at the water stations?)

RacoonQueen

The only marathon I ever needed to stop for the toilet in was my first. Haven't needed to ever since so I suspect that was in my head. It'd be different for everyone but I'd very rarely even need to go while on a run. Think I've run into the bushes once in over 4 years of running. I suppose it depends on the person, boys, typically, need to stop off more.

As for the paper cups, some people will carry a straw with them and drink from the straw, some will make a spout and manage to get the water that way. If you can't drink from the cups you'll probably lose less time by walking through the water stations and getting a good slurp of water than you'll lose if you run through them and get feck all water on and end up dehydrated.

Have you ever had to drink from a cup in a race before? Can't drink from a cup while running myself, I get a sip then just throw the rest in the general direction of my open mouth and hope for the best.

shotgunmcos

Dory Dory wrote: »

90 minutes of yoga done.

A couple of questions for anyone who wants to chime in:

1) What is the likelihood that I will have to stop and take a loo break durning my marathon....and how stressful is that break with respect to it wasting precious time during the run?

How did you fare in your 20 miler? Monitor this in your other 4 20 milers too. On race day you tend to sip more water if a) its warm and b) nervous so you may just be filling a balloon up with water. Test this out on one of your long runs. Maybe sip a litre of water in the 90 mins before you run and see how it goes.

How stressful? For women much more, unless you have absolutely no shame whatsoever!

Dory Dory wrote: »

2) If the water at the stations are in paper cups, what is the best way to drink the water - stop/slow down....or slurp it best I can on the run? (Is there any benefit to slowing down/stopping at the water stations?)

I hate cups. They had them in Berlin in September and half the water just went up my nose. You may have to use tops 7 water stations. If you were to slow down and post a 8-10 sec slower mile each time would a minute be a catastrophe in the greater scheme of things? I'd recommend slowing down at least

BTW sent that mail from my gmail this time :rolleyes: