Project Maths - what is your biggest problem with this?

Canard

MathsManiac wrote: »

I think the difference is huge - particularly if someone claims that there's a whole load of rote memorisation of definitions to be done, when what is actually required is the ability to explain what commonly used mathematical terms mean. Knowing a definition off by heart MIGHT be regarded as sufficient if you were asked to explain the word, but is NOT a necessary prerequisite for being able to explain it. I don't believe I've ever learned a definition of a rectangle off by heart, but I have certainly read definitions of rectangles, and thought about them. And I think I could give a reasonable explanation of what a rectangle is.

Rectangles are easy to define or explain, it doesnt need studying. With the amount of new terms you find throughout LC maths now, you'd need to learn at least some of them to ensure you know what they all mean, its pretty much unavoidable.

MathsManiac wrote: »

I didn't say anything about whether I thought Active Maths was a good book or not. I don't know, as I haven't read it. And you're moving the goalposts again: I'm not suggesting you could explain these things if nobody had ever talked to you about them. I'm saying that you could explain them without having learned definitions of them off by heart. You could do so if you had read about them, discussed them, looked at different sets of data that had been collected in different ways, and discussed, (using the correct terminology,) how the manner of their collection might affect the kinds of conclusion you can draw from them.

I know, but I used it as an example because its the most widely used Project Maths book. How else are you supposed to learn a ton of new definitions other than rote learning? They wont stick in a lot of people's heads straight away - I mean, I know what an axiom/ray/line segment is now but I had to learn. In Statistics I had to flick back to the start of the chapter to check the names of each data collection method but maybe thats just me.

MathsManiac wrote: »

The constructions seem fairly modest - not much different from what was there before and already covered at JC level. And what's so ridiculously complicated about using a ruler and protractor or setsquare to draw a rectangle, (which is all the syllabus requires on that score)?

There's 22! I dont remember doing that many at JC level. Theres nothing ridiculously complicated about it but if someone asked you to draw a rectangle casually, would you whip out a ruler, protractor and setsquare? Its totally unnecessary.

MathsManiac wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you talk about having to learn two methods for doing the same thing. Sometimes, if you understand the ideas well, you can see several ways of doing something - is that what you mean?

Not really - simply put the book claims that we can be asked two different ways of constructing things. Theres almost always an easy way and an overly complicated way. I mean, I can deduce how to draw a simple rectangle - they want us to draw arcs, extended lines etc then cut them off and connect them to form a rectangle. It's just not a logical event sequence, for me anyway, so its hard to remember compared to the instinctive and simpler methods.

tacofries

my teacher is out cause she is sick. We have just started doing paper two a month ago. the new teacher we have cannot answer all of the project maths questions and the ones she can it takes her a day or two to do it. I am the student and she is the teacher. When we dont know how to answer a question in the papers we just have to pass over it as there is no answers online.

I am now starting to panic with maths. My teacher doesn't know what we have to do, I don't know what we have to do, and there's so much sh1t online ( except actual worked out examples) that i don't know where to start.

I am now panicking.

Would I be right in thinking that if a sub- teacher just out of college got a job replacing a teacher for a month after the in-service for project maths had already taken place, she would have got no clear run-down on what the course entails.! Therefore been clueless about what needs to be done. Thats what it seems like to me

Canard

My sister came home freaking out over some question and I thought she just had to be exaggerating, but she wasnt.

There's a project maths question somewhere in their OL papers that is literally "Explain why Karen might take the longer route home" and the answers are things like "Maybe she wants to see the scenery"!

Namlub

Which papers?

Canard

I'm not sure, I just heard it was on a class test and taken from the sample papers. People in my school were talking about it too though.

Eurovisionmad

My issue is how it's supposed to stop the "rote learning" but has introduced so many more proofs with must be learnt so it's went the other way and now we have to learn more!

Togepi

If it's meant to stop rote learning why are there so many definitions?

stinson

I done strand three as I'm in one of the 24 pilot schools and at the beginning I thought like most people that it was stupid but having done my mocks I now understand why they have changed the course. In the old course you could learn most of the paper off without understanding what you are doing and why you are doing it. Whereas now you need to understand everything you do and be able to talk about it. This should stand for you in college where you are expected to understand what you are doing.

For example we were given four graphs on paper 1 and told to state if they were injective or surjective. That was part b worth 15 marks out of 25 and you get 13 marks for getting two or three right. Very fair marking scheme if I may say. Part a was a little bit more complex and involved writing a short paragraph explaining the difference between injective and surjective, yet it was only worth ten marks.

People need to stop complaining and just accept change. The marking schemes designed for project maths are in the students favour.

Togepi

stinson wrote: »

...This should stand for you in college...

Surely it won't?

I thought that any Project Maths student doing Maths in college was destined to struggle hugely with college Maths.

Canard

stinson wrote: »

The marking schemes designed for project maths are in the students favour.

I'm pretty sure if you try to do something 3 times and only get it right on the fourth, they now make the assumption that you dont have the crucial understanding that project maths demands and you dont get the marks :rolleyes: Might be wrong but thats what I've been told, and one of my friends in 5th year lost marks on her test for solving a quadratic when not told to because it made it look like she didnt understand the question. I hate the all-or-nothing style with no attempt marks.

SureYWouldntYa

Lads a lot of ye are complaining about the lack of resources and how pointless and stupid it is. Im speaking from a purely Higher Level perspective but this is why they are giving the 25 extra points. They are only giving these bonus points for the next 3 years, it makes your B3 into an A1, your D3 into a C1. Personally im quite happy with it considering this

stinson

Togepi wrote: »

Surely it won't?

I thought that any Project Maths student doing Maths in college was destined to struggle hugely with college Maths.

Our maths teachers daughter is in her first year of college and he said she is basically doing the same sort of questions for some topics. The trigonometry section in project maths is a lot better as it forces you to visualise and create more information from the limited information that is given. The differentiation section is a lot better as on the old course you were never going to be asked to calculate acceleration or speed using differentiation. Once again was there any point in the old course for differentiation? Anyone can learn off how to differentiate but how many people that sat the old course knew what the first derivative or second derivative could tell you.

In reply to patchy, I answered a question that we were given from the NCCA and I had a basic understanding of the question(I knew it had something to do with differentiating). I think it was a cubic function and you had to find the tangent to the curve a certain point that was given to you. The question was worth 10marks and i wrote down the first derivative and said it was equal to the slope of any line to the curve. I got six marks for writing that. I also wrote down the second derivative and the turning points even though it had nothing to do with the question yet they ignored that because it was irrelevant. We were told to give as much information as you can relevant or irrelevant as it shows you understand the topic even though you only understand a small part of the question.

irishdude11

What is the deal with project maths anyway, does every leaving cert student have to do a project maths exam this year instead of the 'normal' math exam?

I ask because looking at the the past exam papers on the net, it seems there were Papers I & II for both project maths and regular maths last year. So what is the story, is it optional?

Canard

irishdude11 wrote: »

What is the deal with project maths anyway, does every leaving cert student have to do a project maths exam this year instead of the 'normal' math exam?

I ask because looking at the the past exam papers on the net, it seems there were Papers I & II for both project maths and regular maths last year. So what is the story, is it optional?

Nope, there's 24 pilot schools who do the entire project maths course. Last year the standard course hadnt changed but those 24 did the PM course; this year the standard course is the first two strands of project maths.

PictureFrame

I do Ordinary Level Maths and have to sayi f I wasn't doing project Maths, would probably be guaranteed an A1

Because of Project Maths i'll be lucky to get a B1. I just don't get how to Apply aspects of the course to real life. I'm more of a Business head myself and want to do Law but how you can apply topics like the Circle even Differentiation on Paper I to real life is beyond my simple minds abilities! I miss old, solid Maths..

GaryIrv93

just that P.M turns the exams into f**king english essays now and also they give you way too much space to do some answers, making the question seem even longer,

Wesc.

I think it's mighty altogether! Great craic :P Definitely easier than previous years anyway!

Looking Glass

I prefer this course compared to the original. I actually enjoy working on the new stuff and find it a lot easier to understand than what's usually on the paper. Having always been awful at the subject, I'm getting top marks in the new parts which both surprises and pleases me.

thisisadamh

It seems that people who likes the old course, hate the new course and visa versa. It is nice that this year, it is half old and half new, giving everyone something they like.

rkeano5

I must be one of the few who really likes the new course in comparison to the old. Project Maths FTW

Shnaake

EDIT: It appears a friendly mod has moved my post into this thread... thanks?

So the leaving cert's in 2 months, and I've been slogging through the project maths sample papers as I wasn't really sure what had actually changed. And I came across this question. Not really bothered typing it out (and there might be some silly people who consider it copyright infringement), so I'll give you the gist.

It's a nice little story about Fred and Wilma (Flinstones?) and their marital affairs. Wilma thinks Fred should stay at home on a Saturday and help his wife, as she believes that half of all men stay at home on a Saturday and help their wives with the chores etc. So Wilma (the wench) decides to email 50 men at her workplace to ask them if they stay at home on a Saturday. So blah blah, she gets the results of how many do, and uses a level of confidence 95%. (This is in the EDCO sample paper B, if you're interested).

One of the questions asks you to defend Fred, using the margin of error, true proportion and the potential bias. So I was ok with that, I found the true proportion etc... but I wasn't to sure on the answer to the potential bias question(how I should word it).

The sample answer to the potential bias question is that "the men know Wilma, and they want her to think well of them, and she knows who they are from the email addresses, so they might lie and give her the answer they think she'll like."

Wat. :pac:

Is this Maths? I realise that it's using "logic", but it really annoys me to think that they might mark me down for not using their logic. Now this isn't an SEC/NCAA sample but still, there's a few weird questions in those papers too. They seem to be dumbing down the paper, obviously trying to make it much easier to get a C or B, but very difficult to get A. I know the level of maths in this country is dire, but I don't see how this helps. From what I've heard(from teachers, anyway) the whole project maths initiative is being pushed out under pressure from American employers, which could be COMPLETELY untrue, I can't back that up, I really need to research it...

Also, why do we have to learn definitions for Maths and are they supposed to learned off? I haven't heard any indication of how accurate definitions have to be anyway.

I had consider maths to be one of my strong subjects, and before this initiative, I don't think that I'd be looking for anything below an A1, but now, unless I get 100% in paper 1, I don' know if that's possible. Maths seems to be turning into English, which I understand, you have to be able to apply your knowledge of maths, but it seems like they could throw in a few words, which, if your English wasn't great, might throw you off your game, especially of you aren't throwing back their terminology at them. Now students are going to be subject to poorly(or difficultly) worded questions. The questions seem to be subjective. And they don't seem to have a clue where this is going themselves, given how they've been marking the papers for the past couple of years.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just got carried away (I wrote this directly after doing the Flinstones question). Project maths is doing my head in (thank f**k I'm still doing the trusty old-syllabus Paper 1). Does anyone else think that this whole initiative should be scrapped, or at least revised radically, or maybe that they should make statistics a separate subject?
/rant


Oh, and the clinometer... is that on our maths course? Sample papers seem to indicate that you must know how it functions, or know these various instruments to measure various things... why...

spurious

Not sure what anyone here can do, except agree or disagree with you and nothing anyone here can do will change anything.

If you have a serious issue, contact the DES.
Interesting first post.

Not sure why you commented on the moving of the post. This is where it belongs.

Eathrin

It's a pile of shít put simply.

That's a ridiculous answer to the question. That's not even maths ffs:mad:
The syllabus seems dumbed down and you're actually docked marks for not showing ALL of your work. I do most calculations in my head so I don't write a lot, and they dock me marks for this, am I bad at Maths? Feck off Project Maths.

It is an abomination to say that this is "practical maths". Exam makers and the people who write the syllabus are so stupid, it's a wonder they're doing what they are. If they want to make maths practical, fine with me, but not this bullshít.

Yeah, rant over:mad:

Namlub

The Leaving Cert is not in 2 months

Wesc.

Has anyone actually looked at the old paper 2? I tell you, it looks far more difficult than project maths. The questions are far far more advanced. Project maths, although not being great preparation for college maths, is so much easier than the old course.

Chuchoter

The only major issue I take with the project maths is the weird box situation. What was the problem with the old system of exam paper + booklet? I have no space to do anything and I do a lot of messing and trying stuff out when I'm doing maths. I emailed the Project Maths people and they never came back to me

lestat21

Schnake the edco sample papers arent a very good indication of whats coming up in the exam. You should be looking at the SEC sample paper and previous project maths exam papers that were examined in the 24 pilot schools. They're all available on examinations.ie

Blame the pilot schools for the boxes when students were surveyed they brought up the idea of writing answers under the questions....

FunTimess

I hate hate hate any of the word problems. Maths used to be my favourite subject because it was like a world in it's own. I just hate project maths!

AdamD

lestat21 wrote: »

Schnake the edco sample papers arent a very good indication of whats coming up in the exam. You should be looking at the SEC sample paper and previous project maths exam papers that were examined in the 24 pilot schools. They're all available on examinations.ie

Blame the pilot schools for the boxes when students were surveyed they brought up the idea of writing answers under the questions....

I was in a pilot school and all we ever did was moan about the boxes

checkcheek

i dont mind having to wirte in boxes, its just i hate the way they give you a huge box for an answer that involves very little work so therfor you dont need much space, and then they give you a tiny tiny box and everything is all squshed in!!!


Plus i hate the way its not loke paper 1 in the sense that part a was easy then b was slightly harder etc, now there just all over the place!!!