2,000 teaching jobs to go ??

madison2011

Am I dreaming or did I hear on the radio today that between 1,000 and 2,000 teaching jobs are to go in the next year???

wiger toods

heard this too, lots of protests to follow i imagine!

byhookorbycrook

It was on the Sunday Times today,I'd say the PTR will go up as will the numbers for the general allocation model.

madison2011

Hope there will be a subvention for the bouncers that will be needed on the classroom doors :rolleyes:

E.T.

I wonder how the government will fiddle the figures for the pupil teacher ratio when they bring in these cuts?

They're already including Learning Support, Resource and EAL teachers in the ratio to make it look better. Will they include ALL school staff from now on? SNAs, secretaries, caretakers (if schools have any of these!)

What conditions will they cut from receiving Resource hours? Amazing how they can just decide that children with a diagnosed condition aren't entitled to guaranteed hours.

madison2011

Ah sure isnt ADHD is only boldness really... it doesnt really interfere with the the learning in the class does it. The spontaneity and poor impulse control and inability to focus shouldnt affect other students progressing. The teacher has now has 2 minutes individual attention per student in a 40 min class. Its loads, riiiiiiight.

Bullseye1

Maybe they will be elected to the dail. There is certainly enough of them in there.

It's not nice hearing about anyone losing their jobs.

madison2011

Mainstream cuts don't add up though. I wonder if some programmes such as VTOS, BTEI, Youthreach or Community Ed are in the firing line.

byhookorbycrook

of course mainstream cuts work, Croke park ....

madison2011

Croke Park applies to all the other education sectors too. There will be a critical point where schools fail to do their core business. In my limited knowledge - the schools are probably nearly there. I cant see how mainstream could survive a cull of 2,000. So I'm guessing that the other sectors get hit big this time.

Lord TSC

As if it wasn't hard enough as an unemployed teacher looking for a job. 2000 more new competitors being added to the job market. Brilliant. Or at the very least, 2000 less chances to find a job...

More than any other, this piece of news has pretty much swayed me towards going back to Uni and doing a PhD to retrain into another field....

Misticles

What is the average pupil to teacher ratio these days?

When I was in school it was 30 to 1 teacher and I thought that was HUGE!

Misticles

Misticles wrote: »

..............

When I was in school it was 30 to 1 teacher and I thought that was HUGE!

Less than that by far for 2nd level.
If they got rid of the useless teachers it would be a good thing, there's more than 2000 of them knocking about anyway.

Lord TSC

RoverJames wrote: »

Less than that by far for 2nd level.
If they got rid of the useless teachers it would be a good thing, there's more than 2000 of them knocking about anyway.

It would only be a good thing if the replaced the 2000 useless teachers with 2000 good ones. I don't get the feeling thats whats happening here though :P

And when I was in second (10 years ago), the classes were 30 to 1 as well, at least in mine.

eyescreamcone

When I was in primary school we had 43 in the class
But we were small so we all fitted in snug like

Kimmy-XxX

RoverJames - I completely agree that there are an incredible amount of useless teachers out there. I certainly suffered an abundance of them in my time in school. What's frightening is that I don't think this is how the cuts will be decided! (Incidentally, anyone know how they will be decided? Left up to individual schools? Last in first out?)

I'm actually gobsmacked at this announcement. Ireland is in an incredibly low place - around 100 people are emmigrating every day. It's shocking that the government are willing to put our education at risk. Young people are the future of this country and by taking away their resources, the future looks bleaker than ever. Ireland needs to invest in education to create a highly skilled work force who can get us out of the mess we're in.

I've always liked Quinn - his new policies concernin the JC are fantastic and I admire how he is committed to change but I think this is a massive step to far.

If it's absolutely essential to cut back the amount of teachers by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is, introduce an inspection system, get rid of the bad ones and make room for the fantastic and dedicated educators that are crying out for a job. If the quantity of teachers has to be low at least ensure that the quality is good!

WastedSpace

RoverJames wrote: »

Less than that by far for 2nd level.
If they got rid of the useless teachers it would be a good thing, there's more than 2000 of them knocking about anyway.

And whom do you expect to teach the children these days? Or you just want them to be brought up with no education and running riot?!?

sitstill

It will probably be a last in, first out type of situation where lots of teachers on temporary contracts are let go.

Godge

sitstill wrote: »

It will probably be a last in, first out type of situation where lots of teachers on temporary contracts are let go.

Depends on how many teachers retire before February 2012. I would think that they will hire temporary teachers on 1 March to teach the classes of those who retired up until the summer.

A reduced pupil-teacher ratio will apply from next September and that will mean that those temporary hires from March will be let go and the redeployment schemes will be used to reallocate teachers.

As next February will be the only time that significant numbers of teachers will leave in the coming years, whatever reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio (be it of 2,000 teachers or some other number) that happens in December's budget, it will probably be the only one of the current government.

golden virginia

The minister announced during the week that teachers retiring in February can continue to teach out the school year - this is for continuity for students especially exam classes -has been agreed with Unions.

The new Junior cert will involve cuts. less subject choice = less teachers needed.

jonseyblub

golden virginia wrote: »

The minister announced during the week that teachers retiring in February can continue to teach out the school year - this is for continuity for students especially exam classes -has been agreed with Unions.

I heard this (but it may not be true) that they can stay on until the end of the year but be paid the new entrants rate so as to make sure the education budget stays on target. If it is true I doubt you'll see many staying on

whiteandlight

You have to remember though that the pupil teacher ratio doesn't necessarily mean that number of students in the room. Because resource etc is included then class sizes are much bigger. All first year Maths classes are29-30 in my school this year with the exception of 6 sen students who have some support. If the ratio goes up again you're looking at 31-32 plus in a class at second level. From a practical point of view I'm not even sure that many desks would fit into the rooms!! There are already class sizes of 34 plus at primary level, how big can you make them before nobody is getting a proper education. We have mainly 35 minute periods in school, with roll call taken out you are looking at a minute of attention per student and that's assuming you do no demonstration work at all! There is no question but that this will impact On education

Rosita

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

I've always liked Quinn - his new policies concernin the JC are fantastic and I admire how he is committed to change but I think this is a massive step to far.

If it's absolutely essential to cut back the amount of teachers by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is, introduce an inspection system, get rid of the bad ones and make room for the fantastic and dedicated educators that are crying out for a job. If the quantity of teachers has to be low at least ensure that the quality is good!

I think you are missing the point. This is not about replacing dead-wood wasters like myself already in a job with "fantastic and dedicated educators" who are champing at the bit. This is a money-saving exercise pure and simple and the last thing the government will want to do is get involved in funding another inspection system which might not easily unearth as many lead-swingers as idle chat would have you believe.

The main "change" Quinn is interested in is changing the bottom line and you certainly have to admire how committed he is to it, or at least you would if he grew a pair and considered the reintroduction of third-level fees - rather than squeezing resources still further at post-primary level - as part of the solution to the education spend.

gaeilgebeo

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

RoverJames - I completely agree that there are an incredible amount of useless teachers out there. I certainly suffered an abundance of them in my time in school. What's frightening is that I don't think this is how the cuts will be decided! (Incidentally, anyone know how they will be decided? Left up to individual schools? Last in first out?)

I'm actually gobsmacked at this announcement. Ireland is in an incredibly low place - around 100 people are emmigrating every day. It's shocking that the government are willing to put our education at risk. Young people are the future of this country and by taking away their resources, the future looks bleaker than ever. Ireland needs to invest in education to create a highly skilled work force who can get us out of the mess we're in.

I've always liked Quinn - his new policies concernin the JC are fantastic and I admire how he is committed to change but I think this is a massive step to far.

If it's absolutely essential to cut back the amount of teachers by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is, introduce an inspection system, get rid of the bad ones and make room for the fantastic and dedicated educators that are crying out for a job. If the quantity of teachers has to be low at least ensure that the quality is good!

Don't be fooled into thinking that these changes are anything other than
more educational cuts and another way of saving money on corrections/supervisors. The best interests of the students are not the focus of these changes, regardless of the lip-service the dept. are spouting!

WastedSpace

WastedSpace wrote: »

And whom do you expect to teach the children these days? Or you just want them to be brought up with no education and running riot?!?

The class size will be bigger. My primary school class was over 30 iirc, most of my 2nd level classes were too except the likes of Physics. Enlarged classes is not the same as kids being brought up with no education and running riot, a bit of realism please.

An Clar abu

Well, that's the CPA for ya. More than 75% of the pay going towards salary and pensions for the permanent teachers while better trained graduates have to look abroad for work.

The CPA- a deal by insiders for insiders.

rainbowtrout

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

If it's absolutely essential to cut back the amount of teachers by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is, introduce an inspection system, get rid of the bad ones and make room for the fantastic and dedicated educators that are crying out for a job. If the quantity of teachers has to be low at least ensure that the quality is good!

Another inspection system won't happen. It would cost money the government don't have and it would probably have to be agreed to by the unions. No union is going to agree to a system where it's members can get fired (whether they deserve to be or not is another question).

sitstill wrote: »

It will probably be a last in, first out type of situation where lots of teachers on temporary contracts are let go.

Of course it is, but how many part time teachers are left in schools to be given the boot? Enough have been left go in the last couple of years. I know there are always a certain number of part timers on staff, and they are only being hired as needed, but with many schools down to the bare bones with class sizes and subject choice, there's very little room for manoevre.

Godge wrote: »

Depends on how many teachers retire before February 2012. I would think that they will hire temporary teachers on 1 March to teach the classes of those who retired up until the summer.

A reduced pupil-teacher ratio will apply from next September and that will mean that those temporary hires from March will be let go and the redeployment schemes will be used to reallocate teachers.

As next February will be the only time that significant numbers of teachers will leave in the coming years, whatever reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio (be it of 2,000 teachers or some other number) that happens in December's budget, it will probably be the only one of the current government.

Yep, much the same as last year when the hiring moratorium was in place. Same thing will probably happen this year.

golden virginia wrote: »

The minister announced during the week that teachers retiring in February can continue to teach out the school year - this is for continuity for students especially exam classes -has been agreed with Unions.

The new Junior cert will involve cuts. less subject choice = less teachers needed.

Is there a link to that announcement anywhere?

Schools are obliged to provide 28 hours a week tuition to students. So if subjects are cut from say 12 to 8 for Junior Cert in a school, it would imply that more time be given to the 8 subjects a student is doing. I'm not sure of it meaning less hours in a school, but it would mean less of a subject variety without a doubt. Having a core subject will become even more important.

Would the government go so far as to shorten the school day even by one hour? An average school of say 400 students would have on average 20 class groups on at any a time. So in a school of that size it would be a saving of 20 hours a week which is almost a full teacher. If that was the case in every school in the country, they would cut a fair few jobs that way. Teachers hours and pay are not cut this way but it still would mean less jobs overall.

Rosita wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. This is not about replacing dead-wood wasters like myself already in a job with "fantastic and dedicated educators" who are champing at the bit. This is a money-saving exercise pure and simple and the last thing the government will want to do is get involved in funding another inspection system which might not easily unearth as many lead-swingers as idle chat would have you believe.

The main "change" Quinn is interested in is changing the bottom line and you certainly have to admire how committed he is to it, or at least you would if he grew a pair and considered the reintroduction of third-level fees - rather than squeezing resources still further at post-primary level - as part of the solution to the education spend.

I still don't understand why third level fees have largely remained untouched in all of this. I know the registration fee went up to €2000, but that's nothing in comparision to the 5-7k fees that it would cost to attend college for each year of an undergrad degree. Without factoring in accommodation etc.

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Don't be fooled into thinking that these changes are anything other than
more educational cuts and another way of saving money on corrections/supervisors. The best interests of the students are not the focus of these changes, regardless of the lip-service the dept. are spouting!

They never are. I'm interested to see where the cuts can come from this time round, there's almost nothing left to cut.

Rosita

RoverJames wrote: »

Enlarged classes is not the same as kids being brought up with no education and running riot, a bit of realism please.

I actually think your argument is the unrealistic one. If 'enlarged classes is not the same as kids being brought up with no education and running riot' then it is fair to say that in the case of some kids the difference is negligible.

I teach some kids who no longer have the option of resource hours and they are suffering desperately because of it. If there was 20 rather than 30 in the class it might be possible to get to them in a meaningful way in a mainstream situation. Anyone who thinks that class size does not matter cannot ever have been a teacher. It matters big-time. If I was to change one thing to make my teaching more effective it would be the class size, and I doubt I'd be alone in that.

golden virginia

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is there a link to that announcement anywhere?

.

“These teachers may be re-employed until the summer holidays for the teaching duties for which they were timetabled immediately before their retirement,” said Mr Quinn. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1104/1224307039678.html

Rosita

Rosita wrote: »

I actually think your argument is the unrealistic one. If 'enlarged classes is not the same as kids being brought up with no education and running riot' then it is fair to say that in the case of some kids the difference is negligible.

I teach some kids who no longer have the option of resource hours and they are suffering desperately because of it. If there was 20 rather than 30 in the class it might be possible to get to them in a meaningful way in a mainstream situation. Anyone who thinks that class size does not matter cannot ever have been a teacher. It matters big-time. If I was to change one thing to make my teaching more effective it would be the class size, and I doubt I'd be alone in that.

20 instead of 30 in a class?
Hardly on the same scale as to the likely increase in pupil teacher ratio that may be the result of 2000 teaching posts being culled. As I said, a bit of realism would be good, if all you can do is come up with comparisons that are 10 times different in magnitude and bandy about that "It matters big-time" you really are looking a tad irrational.

You said yourself.........."If there was 20 rather than 30 in the class", no one is suggesting a change of that magnitude either way.

As a teacher, how many teachers teach in your school and how many of them do you reckon are not good enough at it?

I never said class size does not matter but insinuating that the 2000 posts cut will result in kids running riot with no education is completely unrealistic, kids run riot due to teachers being crap.

Lord TSC

As a teacher, how many teachers teach in your school and how many of them do you reckon are not good enough at it?

But again, thats a moot point. There's obviously bad teachers in most schools, but they aren't going to be targetted by these cuts. The increased numbers is relevant to discussion because that will be an effect of these cuts (and to be blunt, I've always hated a "Sure it did me no harm" arguement). But it's not going to be the bad teachers who suffer here; if anything, it will be the younger ones who have the latest educational techniques and don't have the bad habits.

Meanwhile, students suffer because any increase in class size means less time spent with a teacher one on one; even the greatest teacher only has a limited time with a class and each student within in. These cuts only serves to cut this time even more. Thats not rocket science.

Rosita

RoverJames wrote: »

You said yourself.........."If there was 20 rather than 30 in the class", no one is suggesting a change of that magnitude either way.

As a teacher, how many teachers teach in your school and how many of them do you reckon are not good enough at it?

I never said class size does not matter but insinuating that the 2000 posts cut will result in kids running riot with no education is completely unrealistic, kids run riot due to teachers being crap.

I never said anyone was suggesting a change of any magnitude. All I said was that class sizes matter and matter a lot. I just gave an example from my own experience. Don't get hung up on the actual figure. The point stands anyway. 29 is easier than 30 as you can put a troublesome student sitting on his own which might not be an option if you have a full complement. But anyone who teaches would appreciate this anyway. Like I said the numbers merely emphasise the impact.

Not sure of the relevance of your question but there's 40 odd teachers in my school. How many of them are 'not good enough'? How on earth could I know that? I am never in their class. But results tend to be quite good.

Saying that "kids run riot due to teachers being crap" is massively simplistic.

Rosita

Rosita wrote: »

I never said anyone was suggesting a change of any magnitude. All I said was that class sizes matter and matter a lot. I just gave an example from my own experience. Don't get hung up on the actual figure. ........................................
Saying that "kids run riot due to teachers being crap" is massively simplistic.

..

lol, massively simplistic but the example you gave is given with the condition not to get hung up on the numbers. In all fairness, that's a very weak argument.

Are you on mid term break or something?

Lord TSC

Cause when you're struggling in a debate with teachers, fall back on the auld holiday arguement....

Teamshadowclan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Cause when you're struggling in a debate with teachers, fall back on the auld holiday arguement....

I'm not struggling at all, a teacher used an example, when pointed out it was a tad unrealistic they come back and say " Don't get hung up on the actual figure" while using it as justification that my point was simplistic. The mid term break was a tongue in cheek comment as the poster was posting during "school hours"

No wonder the unions are required

Delphi91

Misticles wrote: »

What is the average pupil to teacher ratio these days?

When I was in school it was 30 to 1 teacher and I thought that was HUGE!

That doesn't mean that the PTR was 30:1.

The number of teachers a school is entitled to is the number of students on the books (the previous October) divided by the PTR.

You may end up with some classes being large (e.g. 30 students per teacher in English) but they will be subsidising the smaller classes like for example, applied maths, etc where you might only have, say, 10 students in the class.

When I was in Primary school, way back in the early 70's, I remember having 48 in the class!

touts

I suppose they will take the number that retire and let go enough temp contract teachers to bring that figure up to 2000. Then they will see what redeployments of CIDs are needed around the country to keep school doors open. That seems to be the level of analysis that is being done by the department.

Does anyone know how many accountants and administrators have been left go from the department in all these cutbacks. Or has the number been increased to allow for the extra work in organising the paperwork for the retirement, redundancy and redeployment of teachers. Teachers and pupils really are viewed as little more than parasites on the core accountancy functions of the Department of Education.

Jess16

In addition to the frontline effects of increased pupil/teacher ratio, increased unemployment etc., these cuts severly undermine the credibility of this government to implement positive long-term policies.

How on earth can Ireland achieve economic growth as a 'knowledge based economy' with Ruairí Quinn taking a hatchet to our entire education system? I had high hopes for Enda and his ideals but this latest fiasco just proves that nothing has changed and the rhetoric used by our politicians to become elected is nothing more than the same old empty promises.

The country needs an educated, skilled workforce now more than ever and the starting point for that is in the classroom.

golden virginia

I'm a second level teacher. I remember teaching in a school in 1996. My smallest class had 33 students ( these were the weakest of students). Believe or not my leaving cert class had 40 students.

The room - a prefab - was too small to take the desks needed. The students had to crawl under the desks on their hands and knees to get to the inside rows of seats.

If there was a fire - god only knows how those students could get out. During class i couldnt get to them in order to see their work and managing behaviour from this distance, with all these desks in the way, was a challenge.

It looks to me like we are going back to these good ole days!

Lord TSC

The country needs an educated, skilled workforce now more than ever and the starting point for that is in the classroom.

Given the government seems not only content but anxious to show the door to the educated, skilled workforce we have now, what makes anyone think they are prioritising training a new one? They're practically asking people to emigrate once they're done with Uni and education, so I guess there's no point in pumping money into our youth any more

Guramoogah

golden virginia wrote: »

The minister announced during the week that teachers retiring in February can continue to teach out the school year - this is for continuity for students especially exam classes -has been agreed with Unions.

golden virginia wrote: »

“These teachers may be re-employed until the summer holidays for the teaching duties for which they were timetabled immediately before their retirement,” said Mr Quinn. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1104/1224307039678.html

I'm not too sure about the legality of that. According to the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, in a response in the Dáil on 17 May 2011 to a question from Ciarán Lynch about his his policy on the employment in the public sector of former employees who have left the service through redundancy or retirement:

“It is a general condition of the Incentivised Scheme of Early Retirement (ISER) that persons availing of this Scheme will not be eligible for re-employment in the same part of the public service. In order to ensure compliance with the provisions of the form of acceptance, Departments and other Public Service employers must inquire of relevant future job applicants if they have availed of the terms of this Scheme. If the person was formerly in the Civil Service and availed of the ISER, s/he is ineligible for subsequent re-employment in the Civil Service. Similar restrictions apply elsewhere in the Public Service.”

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/05/17/00092.asp

Similarly, from the Department of Finance Circular 10/2005: Public Service Pension Reform: Introduction of cost neutral early retirement

Return to public service employment

19. Where a person who has availed of cost neutral early retirement returns to public service employment, that person will be subject to the relevant rules which apply both in the superannuation scheme from which they are being paid a pension and the superannuation scheme pertaining to their new employment (e.g. in relation to abatement/cessation of pension and maximum accrual rates).

20. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 19 above, service in respect of which an actuarially reduced pension has been paid cannot be aggregated with subsequent service in the same scheme or transferred between schemes.

21. It should be noted that, as in the case of resignation generally, a person availing of cost neutral early retirement has no right of return to work in the public service other than through normal recruitment/selection procedures.

Rosita

RoverJames wrote: »

..

Are you on mid term break or something?

It's funny how your mask slipped so easily in the end!

Jess16

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Given the government seems not only content but anxious to show the door to the educated, skilled workforce we have now, what makes anyone think they are prioritising training a new one?

The fact that prioritising education formed the basis of campaign manifestos during election time and the people promising such things have since transpired to be little more than liars. Democracy is a farce when those at the helm keep changing the goalposts as soon as they're in power