Two ex-gardaí jailed over Waterford assault

charlemont

Vizzy wrote: »

I thought that the Gardai were never suspected of beating anybody in that case(could be wrong) but simply let the young lad die in custody.
Wasn't the lad beaten up by another older guy a few days previously and that he was convicted of assault?

Yes Someone else had headbutted him few nights before, And that must have played a part in his death too.

tommyboy2222

How come the female garda got off so lightly ?

Duggy747

Just to state, I'm not referring to Clonmel. Opposite side of the country I'm on about

jackie1974

Vizzy wrote: »

I thought that the Gardai were never suspected of beating anybody in that case(could be wrong) but simply let the young lad die in custody.
Wasn't the lad beaten up by another older guy a few days previously and that he was convicted of assault?

He was arrested with two other boys that both testified that they were beaten and his sister said there was marks on his face that werent there after the altercation a few days before. Also the gardai told his father that he was after a lot of alcohol and ecstasy and that was why they were holding him, this turned out to be untrue when toxicology tests were done. There was a lot inconsistencies in the case which led to an open verdict at the inquest.

TheUsual

Holy crap !!!
Gardaí in prison, well ex-Gardaí ... not cool, from their point of view.

If only this was happening when I was growing up, knew of a few tough-guy Gardaí that loved the physical stuff. They used rubber garden hoses so there was no evidence. Never put myself in any situation that I would meet them myself, thanks be to God.

charlemont

Duggy747 wrote: »

Just to state, I'm not referring to Clonmel. Opposite side of the country I'm on about

Cool..

munster_mafia

It's a bit odd that the woman got off, I think she was the only one to actually hit him. Delighted for the other fella, he was well known to be the hard man. The whole thing I believe was pre-meditated anyhow, your man had supposedly grabbed an off dutys cop arse in a night club.

MagicSean

I find these sentences to be ridiculous. If this had been a Garda assaulted by a man with multiple convictions he would have gotten probation. No doubt they will be appealed and probably be successful. They are completely outside the bounds of normal sentencing.

Finnbar01

MagicSean wrote: »

I find these sentences to be ridiculous. If this had been a Garda assaulted by a man with multiple convictions he would have gotten probation. No doubt they will be appealed and probably be successful. They are completely outside the bounds of normal sentencing.

I don't think they can appeal.

“However, it is fortunate for all three that the injuries suffered by Anthony Holness were not more serious and that they didn’t find themselves before another court,” she said as she refused leave to appeal to all three defendants.

Does that mean they can appeal but they have to remain in prison until their appeals are heard???

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1108/1224307207563.html

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I don't think they can appeal.



Does that mean they can appeal but they have to remain in prison until their appeals are heard???

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1108/1224307207563.html

Yes that's what it means.

EDIT: Although they could be given temporary release by the prison warden for the duration of their appeal.

hatrickpatrick

charlemont wrote: »

No, I think it was wrong what happened that lad and the cover up was a disgrace and the lies told to the hospital staff were outrageous.

I'm basically trying to say that the reality is people have tempers and use violence whether its a Garda or a Taxi Driver or a Doctor, I'm not condoning any further extra judicial punishments.

Ok, I'm with you there. The reality is,there are some people out there (perhaps a lot of people, indeed) who would stoop to something like this.

There are also a lot of thieves, rapists, and fraudsters out there too.
Should we as a society accept that behaviour and turn a blind eye to it because it's something people have a tendancy to do?

(Also, I wasn't just responding to you - there have been many people in threads like this over the last while who say things like "The guy was a scumbag, I'm sure he deserved it" or some such BS, which I find utterly and completely abhorrent in every possible way. Not saying you implied that, but it has definitely been implied repeatedly on AH when incidents like this come up.)

hatrickpatrick

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

How come the female garda got off so lightly ?

She was charged with assault, the other was with assault causing harm. Assault on its own carries lighter sentences.

Apparently in the video she doesn't hit him as often and it's not clear whether they were severe punches.
To a certain extent, you could probably thank Garda Burke's deliberate camera tampering for that - he swung the camera away from the incident twice as it was happening, to avoid creating evidence of what they had done.

minidazzler

padd b1975 wrote: »

Why could he not tell the garda his name??
Did he have something to hide??

You are under no obligation to give a garda your name just because they feel like asking.

Patrick2010

MagicSean wrote: »

I find these sentences to be ridiculous. If this had been a Garda assaulted by a man with multiple convictions he would have gotten probation. No doubt they will be appealed and probably be successful. They are completely outside the bounds of normal sentencing.

Yes, they are a bit odd. No excuse at all for the guards behaviour but jail for a first offense when we read regularly of offenders getting probation after multiple convictions is a bit odd.
Strangest thing though is the ban-garda avoiding jail and keeping her job even though she physically assaulted the man on the ground while the guy in the control room not involved in the assault is in jail and lost his job. Wheres the logic in that?

hatrickpatrick

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Yes, they are a bit odd. No excuse at all for the guards behaviour but jail for a first offense when we read regularly of offenders getting probation after multiple convictions is a bit odd.
Strangest thing though is the ban-garda avoiding jail and keeping her job even though she physically assaulted the man on the ground while the guy in the control room not involved in the assault is in jail and lost his job. Wheres the logic in that?

As I say, that's not entirely the court's fault, more so the government's. 'Assault causing harm' and 'conspiracy to pervert the course of justice' carry more severe penalties than plain 'assault', and it couldn't be ascertained from the CCTV footage whether she had caused harm, so she was only charged with assault.

Bosco boy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Yes, they are a bit odd. No excuse at all for the guards behaviour but jail for a first offense when we read regularly of offenders getting probation after multiple convictions is a bit odd.
Strangest thing though is the ban-garda avoiding jail and keeping her job even though she physically assaulted the man on the ground while the guy in the control room not involved in the assault is in jail and lost his job. Wheres the logic in that?

As I say, that's not entirely the court's fault, more so the government's. 'Assault causing harm' and 'conspiracy to pervert the course of justice' carry more severe penalties than plain 'assault', and it couldn't be ascertained from the CCTV footage whether she had caused harm, so she was only charged with assault.

I just hope that these new tough sentences are also applied to people who assault and murder gardai, I have my doubts and will watch future sentences of a similar nature from this judge with interest! Time will tell!

Bosco boy

minidazzler wrote: »

padd b1975 wrote: »

Why could he not tell the garda his name??
Did he have something to hide??

You are under no obligation to give a garda your name just because they feel like asking.

If you are committing an offence like urinating in a public place then the public order act gives gardai the legal power to demand your name and address and if you fail to do so you are committing a further offence and can be arrested under sec 24 of the public order act 1994! Resisting arrest is a further offence.

Joshua Jones

Bosco boy wrote: »

If you are committing an offence like urinating in a public place then the public order act gives gardai the legal power to demand your name and address and if you fail to do so you are committing a further offence and can be arrested under sec 24 of the public order act 1994! Resisting arrest is a further offence.

I think what he's saying is if you're walking down the road minding your own business and a Guard asks for your name, where you're going etc you're under no obligation to reply unless they have reason to believe you have committed an offence.

Bosco boy

Joshua Jones wrote: »

I think what he's saying is if you're walking down the road minding your own business and a Guard asks for your name, where you're going etc you're under no obligation to reply unless they have reason to believe you have committed an offence.

if a garda is investigating an arrestable offence (penalty 5 years or more) he is entitled under the "Judges Rules" to ask any person any question as part of the investigation. A burglary would be one such offence and if you happen to be in the vicinity at the time and he/she meets you they may well approch you and ask you questions. if you are un co operative which would be unusual as most people like to help then suspicions may arise and other acts may be invoked. My adivice is co operate and you'll have no problems unless you happen to be the offender.

Joshua Jones

Bosco boy wrote: »

if a garda is investigating an arrestable offence (penalty 5 years or more) he is entitled under the "Judges Rules" to ask any person any question as part of the investigation. A burglary would be one such offence and if you happen to be in the vicinity at the time and he/she meets you they may well approch you and ask you questions. if you are un co operative which would be unusual as most people like to help then suspicions may arise and other acts may be invoked. My adivice is co operate and you'll have no problems unless you happen to be the offender.

Yeah I know. It all depends how they do it though. If they approach me and explain their reason for stopping me eg a burglary in the area, and would I mind answering a few questions then no problem. But if they just stop me mid stride demanding my name and where I'm going etc without any explanation then they can swing. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Bosco boy

Joshua Jones wrote: »

Bosco boy wrote: »

if a garda is investigating an arrestable offence (penalty 5 years or more) he is entitled under the "Judges Rules" to ask any person any question as part of the investigation. A burglary would be one such offence and if you happen to be in the vicinity at the time and he/she meets you they may well approch you and ask you questions. if you are un co operative which would be unusual as most people like to help then suspicions may arise and other acts may be invoked. My adivice is co operate and you'll have no problems unless you happen to be the offender.

Yeah I know. It all depends how they do it though. If they approach me and explain their reason for stopping me eg a burglary in the area, and would I mind answering a few questions then no problem. But if they just stop me mid stride demanding my name and where I'm going etc without any explanation then they can swing. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

It's nice to be nice etc! It works both ways!

Dyr

Bosco boy wrote: »

It works both ways!

It does now that a few coppers have been sent down for thuggery

Bosco boy

Bambi wrote: »

Bosco boy wrote: »

It works both ways!

It does now that a few coppers have been sent down for thuggery

Like I said time will tell!

Ronin247

francis1978 wrote: »

I've noticed that in the past few weeks there were one or two other cases involving 'ex guards'. Do other posters think it is fair that they should be allowed to be sacked/resign ? Surely the fact that they are no longer employed is a sign of guilt, are there in-house disciplinary procedures such as the army's court martial or similar? Are they removed from there jobs to avoid headlines such as "Guards assault man" ?

I dont know for sure but I was once told they resign to protect the generous pension.If they resign,pension ok.If convicted as a serving Garda,bye bye pension.

neveah

Looks like the victim of the assault is suing the guards, hardly a surprise really.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traumatised-victim-of-thuggish-gardai-to-sue-force-2932963.html

MagicSean

Post traumatic stress? This country is a sham.

Dyr

MagicSean wrote: »

Post traumatic stress? This country is a sham.

You ever been beaten up badly?

Guy:Incognito

Anthony Holness (38) revealed to the Irish Independent that he has not received an apology or a single cent in compensation from the Garda Siochana over the attack.

I didnt think the Garda Commisioner walked around handing out cheques to people. Why would it have to be "revealed" that he didnt get money?

MagicSean

Bambi wrote: »

You ever been beaten up badly?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1111/cuidzambam.html

That story is of someone being beaten up badly. Incidentally he got the same sentence as the Garda convicted of the same crime even though the level of injury was so different.

michael999999

neveah wrote: »

Looks like the victim of the assault is suing the guards, hardly a surprise really.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traumatised-victim-of-thuggish-gardai-to-sue-force-2932963.html

Hope he cleans out them scobes in uniform in civil court aswell.

The ban garda is from the same town as me and she had the Mayor of Kerry and the Fine gael councillor give her a character reference in court. They should be ashamed of themselves.

kerry4sam

michael999999 wrote: »

Hope he cleans out them scobes in uniform in civil court aswell.

The ban garda is from the same town as me and she had the Mayor of Kerry and the Fine gael councillor give her a character reference in court. They should be ashamed of themselves.

:eek:

I didn't know this.

Freddie59

Bambi wrote: »

You ever been beaten up badly?

In fairness he hasn't been to a theatre of war.:rolleyes:

Me again!

kerry4sam wrote: »

michael999999 wrote: »

Hope he cleans out them scobes in uniform in civil court aswell.

The ban garda is from the same town as me and she had the Mayor of Kerry and the Fine gael councillor give her a character reference in court. They should be ashamed of themselves.

:eek:

I didn't know this.

Wow! Something you didn't know! Every tom dick and Harry rolls out these sort of people when they are in court in similar situations no big surprise. Maybe the incident was out of character for some if not all concerned. Does a garda have less rights than a normal citizen, it appears so.

kerry4sam

Me again! wrote: »

Wow! Something you didn't know! Every tom dick and Harry rolls out these sort of people when they are in court in similar situations no big surprise...

I didn't know that those two particular people were called in here to give a character reference is all I am saying. Thanks though

Dyr

Freddie59 wrote: »

In fairness he hasn't been to a theatre of war.:rolleyes:

You don't have to be near a war to suffer from PTSD. Quite a few gardai and prison officers have been compensated for it, during the course of their duties, justifiably too. Of course, if you've never taken a bad hiding you might not wouldn't have a f**king clue about the effect that can have.

Me again!

Bambi wrote: »

Freddie59 wrote: »

In fairness he hasn't been to a theatre of war.:rolleyes:

You don't have to be near a war to suffer from PTSD. Quite a few gardai and prison officers have been compensated for it, during the course of their duties, justifiably too. Of course, if you've never taken a bad hiding you might not wouldn't have a f**king clue about the effect that can have.

Post tramautic piss disorder!

AudreyHepburn

jackie1974 wrote: »

Im delighted to read that, getting a good beating in the cells is almost par for the course if you piss off the wrong garda. My ex got a beating lately after being arrested for drunken disorderly conduct. He was arguing outside a club when a garda approached him and asked him his name, he replied peter, garda says peter what and like the smart ass he is he said peter pan. So a very pissed off garda says ah ya think your clever do ya and throws him into the back of a paddy wagon.

Duggy747 wrote: »

Friend of mine was put in cell and was beaten black and blue by 3 Gardaì who had him pinned down. He was being cheeky when a Garda told him to go home and so he was lifted.

In all honesty I'd feel a lot more sympathy for these two lads if they hadn't gone out of their way to be lippy. You cannot give lip to the Gardai and expect to receive a handshake and a clap on the back.

No the Gardai are not above the law and yes the three scum in the OP deserve the highest sentence possible.

But lets use some common sense when it comes to situations like the two above.

Unless you are actually trying to hide something or just enjoy pissing the police off there is no need for that kind thing.

Lets not turn this into a Garda-bashing free for all either.....these three Gardai are representative of the Force as whole.

deisedave

I live next to the nightclub he was drinking in, the man was pissing on someones door and got caught gave lip and threw his coat at the gardai. Being drunk is not an excuse and I wish the guards would sort out more of the drunken fools on my street every night. I do not think the guards were right for hitting this man but he was a loud mouth drunk and a trouble maker, him sueing is really pushing his luck. Maybe next time he might learn to not piss on a resedential street.

charlemont

MagicSean wrote: »

Have you anything at all to back that up or are you just testing the defamation law?

Mods can delete if they want, But I'm not one for lying. Do feel sorry for the bloke on the camera though as his old man is supposed to be sound. BTW I heard about that sergeant from a guard that previously trained in DL. Look I'll delete it if its against the rules, I'm only making the point that if these two are as bad as I said they are they got caught so it proves there is justice. I'll judge people on their personalities not on their profession.

I'll report the post myself and let the Mods have a look at it, Ok.

The Master

I've removed your post as it's just hearsay and rumour