Nogi submission wrestling comp 4th dec

Chris89

manga_10 wrote: »

Yeah I agree fully.
If you pay the money, you are fully entitled to an opinion, but people have to bear in mind that competitions very rarely run without a hick up as barry said ,as well as John and Jason weren't fully expecting the volume of people who appeared through the doors that day.
That being said John did mention a preregistering system along the lines of the leagues for the next event.I suppose you have to live and learn

Roll on the next one

Tournaments using 'old school rules' like this are a misrepresentation of the standard of grappling in Ireland. If you want to attract more high level competition, you need to look at a more inclusive scoring system.. ideally awarding points as per the ibjjf's system.

As I said earlier, points are awarded for moves I would hope are universal throughout the various styles competing at tournaments like this, so all athletes should benefit, this also ensures a fair outcome in the absence of a submission.

Submission only tournaments are great in theory but not when the matches are so short. These rules do not so much encourage a submission as encourage stalling for a takedown and rugby tackling your opponent over.

manga_10

Personally Ideally I like ADCC set rules

lawrencesummers

manga_10 wrote: »

Personally Ideally I like ADCC set rules

Personally ideally, i like the idea of getting 20k for winning a division, but while it's not my profession I prefer being able to walk to my profession cause nobody heel hooked me or slammed me into the mat the day before.

Barry.Oglesby

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Personally ideally, i like the idea of getting 20k for winning a division, but while it's not my profession I prefer being able to walk to my profession cause nobody heel hooked me or slammed me into the mat the day before.

ADCC have novice rules, they're just not popular. Also getting slammed is also possible in IBJJF tournaments. I don't know why people think slamming isn't allowed. Spiking on to the head or neck is disallowed.

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

As I said earlier, points are awarded for moves I would hope are universal throughout the various styles competing at tournaments like this, so all athletes should benefit, this also ensures a fair outcome in the absence of a submission.

Getting a score for a sweep/guard-pass, is pretty much exclusive to BJJ.

Barry.Oglesby

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Getting a score for a sweep/guard-pass, is pretty much exclusive to BJJ.

Not so. ADCC rules actually reward sweeps in two different ways- straight to top control- 4 pts, into guard/half guard 2pts. They also award 3 for a pass. I think the reason there's no points for passing or sweeping in many other grappling styles is because they artificially end the grapple after a given period of time.

Before you say it, ADCC is not a BJJ tournament, it's a submission grappling tournament. BJJ just dominates it now because it is the best submission style.

lawrencesummers

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Personally ideally, i like the idea of getting 20k for winning a division, but while it's not my profession I prefer being able to walk to my profession cause nobody heel hooked me or slammed me into the mat the day before.

ADCC have novice rules, they're just not popular. Also getting slammed is also possible in IBJJF tournaments. I don't know why people think slamming isn't allowed. Spiking on to the head or neck is disallowed.

Bit of a difference between a takedown gone wrong and a ligitimate way of defending. In ibjjf rules it's very very unlikely to happen, in adcc it's highly probable.

Barry.Oglesby

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Bit of a difference between a takedown gone wrong and a ligitimate way of defending. In ibjjf rules it's very very unlikely to happen, in adcc it's highly probable.

Takedown gone right you mean. I saw a guy getting an ippon seo nage (sp? Sorry Judo!) in the Euros last year... down so hard he was winded and the opponent just armlocked him while he couldn't move .

I don't like the submission slams either tbh. Some of the banned techniques in both rulesets don't make sense sometimes.

Doug Cartel

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Before you say it, ADCC is not a BJJ tournament, it's a submission grappling tournament. BJJ just dominates it now because it is the best submission style.

ADCC may not be a BJJ tournament, but it is pretty much a BJJ tournament.

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Getting a score for a sweep/guard-pass, is pretty much exclusive to BJJ.

Surely a sweep or guard pass is an advantageous maneuver across all grappling styles, no? And a scoring system like the ibjjf uses rewards such maneuvers accordingly.

Barry.Oglesby

Doug Cartel wrote: »

ADCC may not be a BJJ tournament, but it is pretty much a BJJ tournament.

Only now because BJJ dominates. Look at some of the old vids of the wrestlers competing. You don't think there are Olympic wrestlers out there who wouldn't mind getting 20k?

BJJ dominates the ADCC because it is the most best submission art out there for grappling on the ground. It suits wrestlers far better than IBJJF since in theory they can keep racking up 4 pointer takedowns. The problem is that once they do that, they need to keep grappling down there or be penalised for passivity.

lawrencesummers

All this discussion of rules and peoples preferences is kind of pointless.

Competitions need to be first and foremost safe, that means that adcc rules are not suitable for most levels.

Submission only has a lot more problems that using the ibjjf rules that most fighters, coaches and refs are familiar with.

Personally and I only speak for myself but I'm not going to attend a comp without rules, or one that allows rules like slams and heel hooks, and I would hope that most coaches who have the safety of their students at heart no let them compete either.

But that's just my opinion and it could well be the small minority.

manga_10

Every competition with regards to the sports that we are in provides various risks from a competition standpoint but like most in this community, I know the risks when entering competitions and I'm more than happy to enter with clubs that have a good track record

And barry this is for you

Barry.Oglesby

manga_10 wrote: »

And barry this is for you

Thanks... I think?

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

Surely a sweep or guard pass is an advantageous maneuver across all grappling styles, no? And a scoring system like the ibjjf uses rewards such maneuvers accordingly.

In the Olympic wrestling styles you can't really go on your back without giving away points and running a real risk of losing by a pin. So sweep/pass is not really a move that a pure-blood wrestler is going to be used to, and rewarding it with a score puts them at a bit of a disadvantage.

Now I suppose that this is a bit of a moot point given that someone who's only ever done Olympic wrestling is going to be much more disadvantaged by their lack of subs/sub defence, but I'm just saying that the different styles have some quite different ideas of what counts as dominating your opponent.

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

In the Olympic wrestling styles you can't really go on your back without giving away points and running a real risk of losing by a pin. So sweep/pass is not really a move that a pure-blood wrestler is going to be used to, and rewarding it with a score puts them at a bit of a disadvantage.

Now I suppose that this is a bit of a moot point given that someone who's only ever done Olympic wrestling is going to be much more disadvantaged by their lack of subs/sub defence, but I'm just saying that the different styles have some quite different ideas of what counts as dominating your opponent.

Of course but if they want to enter in a competition such as this they are going to encounter people playing off their back, even if it is two olympic wrestlers, they cant win by pin so they will have to look to submit their opponent or advance their position from the takedown in order to win.

manga_10

Good example from the comp would be Declan Dillon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxy689YCD8

Chris89

manga_10 wrote: »

Good example from the comp would be Declan Dillon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxy689YCD8

Good example of what?

Jason McCabe

A query for those that went to both our comps with regards rules???

The first comp we got a lot of good responses. The second one a lot more critism

The main difference in the two comps was the move away from a judges decision to a takedown deciding fights that went the distance.

Was that the major gripe?

We intend to go back to a decision for next one.

Things like flying submissions and leglocks we will look at as well and will have it much more clearly laid out in advance.

Barry.Oglesby

Would you consider Urban Gorillaz?

http://www.efnsports.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=35

Novices are excluded from toe holds and heel hooks.

manga_10

Chris89 wrote: »

Good example of what?

A wrestler whos willing to adapt

Chris89

manga_10 wrote: »

A wrestler whos willing to adapt

I watched the video, basically one guy controlled the fight and lost a takedown decision... I'm not sure what you mean here.

wingnut4

I do agree, that the rules need to be sorted out with the ref's before hand and made clear. This is something Jason said he will fix so thats good. Another thing is to make sure that inbetween fights the person has at least 5 mins rest.

I for one, had under one minute rest before the final. Whilst my opponent had 45 mins rest but that wasnt her fault, that was due to the girl getting injured. Although I seen a few others who only got one minute rest which is abit nuts!

jimb0_d

Jason McCabe wrote: »

The main difference in the two comps was the move away from a judges decision to a takedown deciding fights that went the distance.

Was that the major gripe?

From my perspective there are two main things.

1. Clear defining of the rules
The event was advertised as only having 2 rules (no heelhooks/neck cranks) then on the day several other strange rules were introduced at the rules meeting. During the competition other things seemed to crop up that had not been addressed at the meeting (specifically guard pulling and flying attacks) and finally to top it off these rules where not universally enforced throughout all matches leaving many feeling hard done by.

2. Takedown Rounds
Whilst the takedown overtime round is good in theory to encourage submission victories, in many cases it actually encourages the opposite. A person who has been grappling for a short period of time may have developed a reasonable defence against basic submissions so can survive for 5 minutes without offering any form of offence, then simply pip the victory away from the controlling opponent. This is much more of an issue when perhaps that person comes from a wrestling or judo (or even rugby!) background and would have a significant advantage over a pure grappling or BJJ beginner in the overtime round. This exact tactic was displayed several times to great success in the beginner divisions at the competition.


In general I enjoyed the competition however if those 2 issues were addressed I think the vast majority of complaints would be resolved.

Jason McCabe

Thanks for the comments folks all the issues will be addressed in full for the next comp and we will be in a bigger venue.

No takedown overtime as it dragged fights out and in hindsight I think the guy who was more dominant sometimes lost

Plus we are setting a top weight limit in the comp the same as the ufcs 265 lbs


One query for you folks. In the absolute I don't want to see any small guys get slammed again the way that happened. Would ppl agree that if there is a weight difference of more than 30 kgs fights should start from their knees?

I would be very concerned about a similar instance. Or do u feel this is an unfair rule?

slammer187

Jason McCabe wrote: »

Thanks for the comments folks all the issues will be addressed in full for the next comp and we will be in a bigger venue.

No takedown overtime as it dragged fights out and in hindsight I think the guy who was more dominant sometimes lost

Plus we are setting a top weight limit in the comp the same as the ufcs 265 lbs


One query for you folks. In the absolute I don't want to see any small guys get slammed again the way that happened. Would ppl agree that if there is a weight difference of more than 30 kgs fights should start from their knees?

I would be very concerned about a similar instance. Or do u feel this is an unfair rule?

I think the rule should be that you can only use your opponents momentum and body weight to throw them so you can't add any of your own force and even if you do pick your opponent up anything more dropping them on their back should be illegal so basically the hardest anybody should would be from a well timed judo throw...also I think the rule of shoes on the mats should be addressed and disinfectant trays in the toilets so that people can disinfect their feet to stop the spread of infection.

Shane Fitz

Jason McCabe wrote: »

One query for you folks. In the absolute I don't want to see any small guys get slammed again the way that happened. Would ppl agree that if there is a weight difference of more than 30 kgs fights should start from their knees?

I would be very concerned about a similar instance. Or do u feel this is an unfair rule?

Starting on knees will, I think, only give you more headaches for the next time. You know the slams only occured for the want of good technique. How about just a very simple " you can't slam to escape a submission"

pablohoney87

Or enforce takedowns as you would a wrestling competition. you can't leave your feet to slam someone. all takedowns must be controlled. hard to hurt someone that way.

Chris89

Were any of you guys talking about the slam in question actually at the competition?

pablohoney87

Chris89 wrote: »

Were any of you guys talking about the slam in question actually at the competition?

Wasn't there Chris. just been following the thread.

paulmclaughlin

WWE-esque choke slam.

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

Were any of you guys talking about the slam in question actually at the competition?

Internet don't need no 1st hand account.

MarkB_

paulmclaughlin wrote: »

WWE-esque choke slam.

I don't think it was that bad, it seemed like a bear hug sort of thing, just pick up and straight down.

Apparently someone has it on video, so it'd clear up what exactly happened for everyone who wasn't there if they posted it.

paulmclaughlin

MarkB_ wrote: »

I don't think it was that bad, it seemed like a bear hug sort of thing, just pick up and straight down.

Apparently someone has it on video, so it'd clear up what exactly happened for everyone who wasn't there if they posted it.

Sure looked like it.

MarkB_

paulmclaughlin wrote: »

Sure looked like it.

Well I'm not certain it wasn't, but it didn't feel like a chokeslam at all.