To those getting shafted by college fees

TheyKnowMyIP

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Is there a post limit before someone can post?

No, I am just saying the guy was complaining about the "bitching" despite his rant being contained to a single post. Ranting typically involves multiple posts bordering on Trolling. We may not agree with his statements, but he is entitled to state his position.

END:cool:

amacachi

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

No, I am just saying the guy was complaining about the "bitching" despite his rant being contained to a single post. Ranting typically involves multiple posts bordering on Trolling. We may not agree with his statements, but he is entitled to state his position.

END:cool:

Three posts. I said bitching, not ranting. There's a difference.

PseudoFamous

amacachi wrote: »

Three posts.

Only one mentioned my situation, was what was being said.

Cill Dara Abu

Domo230 wrote: »

I cant afford college here, have yet to find a job and am not dole eligible.

I considered travelling abroad for work but never thought about it for education until now. Where can I find out more about what countries would offer me a cheaper education than the one I can not afford to get here.

I really feel out of options at the moment. I wan't to work hard and contribute, start getting things together but I really feel like I am low on options.

What makes you think you can't claim dole?

amacachi

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Only one mentioned my situation, was what was being said.

There was the one I quoted, one about Arts students being the lazy ones and this. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75355374&postcount=39

TheyKnowMyIP

Domo230 wrote: »

I cant afford college here, have yet to find a job and am not dole eligible.

I considered travelling abroad for work but never thought about it for education until now. Where can I find out more about what countries would offer me a cheaper education than the one I can not afford to get here.

I really feel out of options at the moment. I wan't to work hard and contribute, start getting things together but I really feel like I am low on options.

Norway is a good bet. They have no fees even for non european citizens. Now that is pushing it a bit, but it goes to show how much they value education. They have essentially put their money where their mouth is. High cost index, but this is offset by a high minimum wage. If you eventually want to do a masters at 15k and the like, it's a no brainer. Postgrad stuff is very expensive here. Even if living isn't the cheapest.

http://www.studyinnorway.no/sn/Tuition-Scholarships

Cill Dara Abu

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Norway is a good bet. They have no fees even for non european citizens. Now that is pushing it a bit, but it goes to show how much they value education. They have essentially put their money where their mouth is. High cost index, but this is offset by a high minimum wage.

http://www.studyinnorway.no/sn/Tuition-Scholarships

What is the minimum wage there? (to lazy to google)

PseudoFamous

amacachi wrote: »

There was the one I quoted, one about Arts students being the lazy ones and this. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75355374&postcount=39

Yet only the linked one was discussing the topic of my finances.

TheyKnowMyIP

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

What is the minimum wage there? (to lazy to google)

I am wrong on that count. There is no established minimum:( Not to mention they have high taxation.

Cill Dara Abu

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I am wrong on that count. There is no established minimum:( Not to mention they have high taxation.

Thought so... not too bad here after all eh.

amacachi

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Yet only the linked one was discussing the topic of my finances.

The one I quoted was you trying to be a martyr and the one about Arts Students was saying they were the only ones who can afford to do that and you can't.

Miss Olenska

I'm of the opinion that third level education is a privilege, not a right.

More and more people are being educated to degree standard in this country, yet American multinationals have complained about the poor standard of Irish graduates. Free fees also haven't greatly increased the numbers of students going to college from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Bring in a loan system like the UK, where there are fees but they are paid back only once the graduate is earning over a certain amount.

A former English housemate of mine was paying back £70 per month on her loan. Hardly extortionate, now is it?

amacachi

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Thought so... not too bad here after all eh.

Something in Ireland being "not too bad"?! Don't be ridiculous, everyone knows it's the worst country in the world and we're living through the most austere times in world history.

DB21

Miss Olenska wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that third level education is a privilege, not a right.

More and more people are being educated to degree standard in this country, yet American multinationals have complained about the poor standard of Irish graduates. Free fees also haven't greatly increased the numbers of students going to college from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Bring in a loan system like the UK, where there are fees but they are paid back only once the graduate is earning over a certain amount.

A former English housemate of mine was paying back £70 per month on her loan. Hardly extortionate, now is it?

No, they haven't. In fact, our standard of education in the reason many multinationals set up European hubs here.

amacachi

Miss Olenska wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that third level education is a privilege, not a right.

More and more people are being educated to degree standard in this country, yet American multinationals have complained about the poor standard of Irish graduates. Free fees also haven't greatly increased the numbers of students going to college from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Bring in a loan system like the UK, where there are fees but they are paid back only once the graduate is earning over a certain amount.

A former English housemate of mine was paying back £70 per month on her loan. Hardly extortionate, now is it?

I can't see a problem with that system. Somehow people still say it would make it unaffordable for certain people, I just don't see it.

Also giving the option of paying fees upfront might cut the numbers going to fee-paying schools here. Faced with paying 25k for college parents might decide not to spend that on secondary education, thereby levelling the playing field.

Orando Broom

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Why not get your education abroad? I am a big believer in the free market, so why put up with increasing fees while the quality of third level education goes down? The amount you invest should be proportional to the actual quality of the education you recieve. Unlike most other nations, irish education appears to operate on the basis of an inverse relationship. This is not opinion, the league tables speak for themselves.

Ireland used to deliver a good education at a reasonable cost a few years back, but this is looking like a dwindling proposition. Some European countries don't even charge fees at all. It's a no brainer imo. Stop pissing people off with your aimless protests and put your money where your mouth is. Like most things in life, money is the ultimate bargaining tool. You can protest till you are blue in the face. These increases are not going away. Vote with your euro - It's better than any protest.

Am I talking sense or just deluded? You can give the finger not by wasting your breath on them, but by completely writing them out of the equation. Saddling undergrads who aren't exactly research oriented with massive loans isn't going to benefit society in the long run, even if the quality returns to a decent level.

Are you a Yale or a Princeton man?

Miss Olenska

DB21 wrote: »

No, they haven't. In fact, our standard of education in the reason many multinationals set up European hubs here.

Yup, and many of those multinational hubs are filled with continental European staff, ya know, with useful second languages and whatnot. My friend works for Facebook, hardly any of her colleagues are Irish.

Wolfe Tone

Lads I dont know where you get the college student "out every night" stereotype.

I'm a college student, and I live on fcuk all money. They reg fee has pretty much bankrupted me and if I need to get a book they are ridiculously expensive. I can't even afford Internet in the place I stay during the week in Dublin. If I go out once every two weeks I'm lucky.

If the reg fee is increased, I will probably won't be able to do the final year of my course, thats my reality, and the reality of loads of students.

TheyKnowMyIP

Miss Olenska wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that third level education is a privilege, not a right.

More and more people are being educated to degree standard in this country, yet American multinationals have complained about the poor standard of Irish graduates. Free fees also haven't greatly increased the numbers of students going to college from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Bring in a loan system like the UK, where there are fees but they are paid back only once the graduate is earning over a certain amount.

A former English housemate of mine was paying back £70 per month on her loan. Hardly extortionate, now is it?

Tell that to the HR drone. Education should be a fundamental right at any level, provided you are capable. If you are capable, this initial investment will probably be paid many times over given an average lifespan.

FWIW, Ireland is very expensive too. The stealth tax brigade will be on the case again soon, you can bet your word on that. Our European Overlords have plenty more "fun" to bestow upon the population of working people in this country.

Seriously, I have considered moving all my money to an offshore bank account if things get any worse. They will come after your pension next. Their ruthlessness knows no boundries!

amacachi

Miss Olenska wrote: »

Yup, and many of those multinational hubs are filled with continental European staff, ya know, with useful second languages and whatnot. My friend works for Facebook, hardly any of her colleagues are Irish.

Mate of mine dropped out at the end of a degree in electronic engineering. All his mates have been applying for everything and fluency in a European language other than English was a pre-requisite. A few lied and made it to the interview stage and were found out.

Cill Dara Abu

amacachi wrote: »

Something in Ireland being "not too bad"?! Don't be ridiculous, everyone knows it's the worst country in the world and we're living through the most austere times in world history.

Oh sorry, I forgot people still went to college during the famine

amacachi

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Lads I dont know where you get the college student "out every night" stereotype.

I'm a college student, and I live on fcuk all money. They reg fee has pretty much bankrupted me and if I need to get a book they are ridiculously expensive. I can't even afford Internet in the place I stay during the week in Dublin. If I go out once every two weeks I'm lucky.

If the reg fee is increased, I will probably won't be able to do the final year of my course, thats my reality, and the reality of loads of students.

I assume you'd also be opposed to paying it back later?

amacachi

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Oh sorry, I forgot people still went to college during the famine

Behind hedges remember!?

TheyKnowMyIP

Orando Broom wrote: »

Are you a Yale or a Princeton man?

I would not lower myself to their level:P

Cill Dara Abu

Orando Broom wrote: »

Are you a Yale or a Princeton man?

Harvard by the sounds of his bank account contents.

PseudoFamous

amacachi wrote: »

I assume you'd also be opposed to paying it back later?

Skilled workers pay more tax than unskilled workers in most cases, so it would be payed back, albeit indirectly.

starbelgrade

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If the reg fee is increased, I will probably won't be able to do the final year of my course, thats my reality, and the reality of loads of students.

That was almost always the reality. When I was in college many students took a year at a time out of their courses earn enough to pay for the next year or two of college.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but sometimes you just have to do what has to be done in order to get to where you want to go.

amacachi

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Skilled workers pay more tax than unskilled workers in most cases, so it would be payed back, albeit indirectly.

I'm against two people getting the exact same service but the one who makes the most use out of it having to pay more for it.

Miss Olenska

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Tell that to the HR drone.

I'm not a HR drone.

But yes, if you're capable. University isn't for everyone, but people are encouraged to go whether it's for them or not. :rolleyes:

TheyKnowMyIP

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Skilled workers pay more tax than unskilled workers in most cases, so it would be payed back, albeit indirectly.

Not to mention they probably own more assets, which are in turn taxed to the hilt. The robin hood principle imo.

Wolfe Tone

amacachi wrote: »

I assume you'd also be opposed to paying it back later?

I'll have to do professional exams which are very expensive, god knows were I will get the cash for that. I don't get any grants.

If people really want a knowledge based economy then changing the current format will damage that, people simply wont go. I will end up "paying back" with decades of tax. Education is an investment.

TheyKnowMyIP

Miss Olenska wrote: »

I'm not a HR drone.

But yes, if you're capable. University isn't for everyone, but people are encouraged to go whether it's for them or not. :rolleyes:

I never said you were, I was simply asserting that the average HR airhead will overlook somebody because they don't have letters after their name. You can say all you like, but the fact remains that education is used to filter job applicants. This is wrong on so many levels. Even for lowly paid positions.

Miss Olenska

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If people really want a knowledge based economy then changing the current format will damage that, people simply wont go. I will end up "paying back" with decades of tax. Education is an investment.

But you'll be paying back anyway if free fees remain, as do all taxpayers, except you'll be paying for free fees for all rather than paying back your own fees.

I think if free fees remain, the quality of courses should be improved. There are way too many shítty courses out there now.

amacachi

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I'll have to do professional exams which are very expensive, god knows were I will get the cash for that. I don't get any grants.

If people really want a knowledge based economy then changing the current format will damage that, people simply wont go. I will end up "paying back" with decades of tax. Education is an investment.

Why should everyone else have to invest in your (or my) education though? If you're dedicated enough then the one night out every two weeks could be sacrificed to cover a 500 or so increase in the reg. fee.

I still can't see the problem with loans. It's up to you if you want to do them or not.

Miss Olenska

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

You can say all you like, but the fact remains that education is used to filter job applicants.

And the reason people without letters after their names are now ignored is because degrees are not worth what they once were what with everyone having one now, so they have just become like the LC used to be, a must. Degrees have become devalued.

TheyKnowMyIP

Just to note. My initial propostion is based on the assumption you at least have a mimimum wage or higher job. If you can live abroad in Australia or whatever people are doing these days, why not at least give it a shot? You won't be denied unless you are a child rapist or something. Never EVER lie to immigration.

gnfnrhead

starbelgrade wrote: »

That was almost always the reality. When I was in college many students took a year at a time out of their courses earn enough to pay for the next year or two of college.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but sometimes you just have to do what has to be done in order to get to where you want to go.

I didnt know you could do that! I'm here thinking if the fee's go up I wont be able to afford next year but if I can do that, I should be able to get enough together to cover it unless it goes up a lot.

How do you do that anyway? Defer it or something?

TheyKnowMyIP

Miss Olenska wrote: »

And the reason people without letters after their names are now ignored is because degrees are not worth what they once were what with everyone having one now, so they have just become like the LC used to be, a must. Degrees have become devalued.

Which leads to the expectation that because these degrees are devalued, there is an expectation that any idiot with a pencil can get a degree while overlooking people without any sort of third level education. "Oh, you're so stupid, you don't even have a bog standard would not wipe your arse degree!". Do you see where I am coming from?

Some places would simply bin an application these days on the basis of not having a degree. I've seen it happen myself, and these sure as hell aren't fortune 500 companies.

amacachi

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I didnt know you could do that! I'm here thinking if the fee's go up I wont be able to afford next year but if I can do that, I should be able to get enough together to cover it unless it goes up a lot.

How do you do that anyway? Defer it or something?

Different in different places. Obviously ya can defer first year, after that it's sometimes a different process and you'd have to get on to your tutor or whatever. I'd advise getting through it as quick as possible though, taking a year out to save will only save enough for the amount extra introduced during that year. :pac:

Miss Olenska

gnfnrhead wrote: »

How do you do that anyway? Defer it or something?

Yes, deferring has always been an option. I did my LC in 2001 and deferred my course for a year to make a bit of money and also because I was only just turned 17 so wasn't quite ready for the college experience.

Wolfe Tone

amacachi wrote: »

Why should everyone else have to invest in your (or my) education though? If you're dedicated enough then the one night out every two weeks could be sacrificed to cover a 500 or so increase in the reg. fee.

I still can't see the problem with loans. It's up to you if you want to do them or not.

When I go out I spend under a tenner.


If the govt help me get educated so I get a well paid job they will benefit with all the extra tax they get which they wouldn't if I spent my life working at a low paid job which I didn't need a degree for.

So you personally, ideally, would benefit because there would be more cash for public services and the like.

amacachi

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Which leads to the expectation that because these degrees are devalued, there is an expectation that any idiot with a pencil can get a degree while overlooking people without any sort of third level education. "Oh, you're so stupid, you don't even have a bog standard would not wipe your arse degree!". Do you see where I am coming from?

Some places would simply bin an application these days on the basis of not having a degree. I've seen it happen myself, and these sure as hell aren't fortune 500 companies.

Yep, and free fees has contributed massively to that. Also since their introduction there's been no increase in the proportion of students in third level from the bottom of the socio-economic pile, only the middle classes.

Dudess

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

Miss Olenska

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Which leads to the expectation that because these degrees are devalued, there is an expectation that any idiot with a pencil can get a degree while overlooking people without any sort of third level education. "Oh, you're so stupid, you don't even have a bog standard would not wipe your arse degree!". Do you see where I am coming from?

Some places would simply bin an application these days on the basis of not having a degree. I've seen it happen myself, and these sure as hell aren't fortune 500 companies.

Standards HAVE dropped. OK, getting a degree takes graft but grade inflation has been demonstrably happening. It was much rarer to get a 2:1 twenty years ago than now, 1:1s even moreso. I got a 2:1, believe me when I say I really really didn't deserve it. 20 years ago, I would have been lucky to scrape a 2:2!

amacachi

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

When I go out I spend under a tenner.


If the govt help me get educated so I get a well paid job they will benefit with all the extra tax they get which they wouldn't if I spent my life working at a low paid job which I didn't need a degree for.

So you personally, ideally, would benefit because there would be more cash for public services and the like.

You sound like a barrel of laughs. :pac:

I'm familiar with economics, but trying to use the circular flow argument in a country consistently ranked as being one of the most open economies in the world really doesn't help your argument.

Miss Olenska

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

+1

amacachi

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

As I said, I bet if there was the prospect of 25k fees for college there'd be a pretty big fall in the uptake for Junior Cert grinds. :pac:

Wolfe Tone

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

You've touched on a big problem. Some people have parents who:

Won't pay for their college
Can't afford to even though their income is above the level

Those young people are effectively fcuked.

TheyKnowMyIP

Domo230 wrote: »

That's been my experience so far. I was told by a recruiter that I was fully qualified, had a great portfolio (computer science stuff) but because I did not have a degree would not be considered.

That was a pretty low day. I am underqualified for these posts but I have a sneaking suspicion that my previous college experience means I am also considered overqualified for many of the minimum wage jobs I am currently searching for. I am young but have an impressive CV. I have a feeling that many do not consider me for certain posts because they think I will leave them as soon as I get the money to return to college (which to be fair is true)

Sometimes it feels like I am trapped by my level of education.

I feel bad for your situation. I don't know what to say. Just keep the head up and consider all options. I have been turned down a number of times myself in the last year, despite having a degree, so don't beat yourself up about that. It's simply a reflection of the times when both good and bad reasons are being used to disqualify someone.

Things will pick up again, you can bet on that. In the meantime, if you have time to kill, you should consider all your options. Employers don't want to hire people in this country at present. It's more than simply not having a degree I am afraid. That is the sad truth. Best of luck whatever you do.

Dudess

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I do see students out on the piss a lot, but it's probably a minority.
IMO fees should be reintroduced but very rigorously means tested so that the wide spectrum of incomes is taken into account - it's far more layered than high, middle and low - however I know that's easier said than done. I know that's discriminatory but I never understand how some people on high incomes have no problem sending their kids to private school, grinds, tuition centres but recoil at the notion of college fees.
First and second level are a right, but after that, it's optional - not everyone avails of it, and some who do, completely take it for granted.
Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money, and fees are pretty much back, albeit not in name - the registration fee being upped and upped. Fees would make people value it more too - some folks in third level couldn't give a ****, and sneer at it. Fees would ensure more of a likelihood of only people who actually want to be there being there.
I have no problem with public funding paying for some of it, just not practically every last penny.
Loans system is a good option IMO.

You've touched on a big problem. Some people have parents who:

Won't pay for their college
Can't afford to even though their income is above the level

Those young people are effectively fcuked.

Yep, those kinda factors are the ones which would make the means testing thing difficult to work.