The End of JoePa in Penn State

PeakOutput

Dodge wrote: »

As an aside, the investigating officer went missing shortly after the decision not to bring it to trial, and his PC was found washed up several months later...

I think I heard it was the district prosecutor that went missing but it could have been the cop. That is an interesting aside to the story as well although I am sure it is probably unrelated. They were saying on the radio that to this day they have no idea if he was killed, ran away or committed suicide

Dodge

PeakOutput wrote: »

I think I heard it was the district prosecutor that went missing but it could have been the cop. That is an interesting aside to the story as well although I am sure it is probably unrelated. They were saying on the radio that to this day they have no idea if he was killed, ran away or committed suicide

My apologies, it was the prosecutor

http://deadspin.com/5857966/the-mystery-of-ray-gricar-the-prosecutor-who-failed-to-prosecute-jerry-sandusky-and-who-might-be-dead?tag=penn-state-scandal

Just another very strange episode in this whole saga

amacachi

My internet is borked so downloading PDFs or even sites I haven't been on before is a no-no so what's the latest? Still seem like legally he did everything right?

Amerika

A couple of questions…

What government agency individuals should be brought to shame for dropping the ball in 1998 regarding Sandusky, thus allowing his crimes to continue?

Is this the same college board of directors that fired Paterno before getting all the facts, yet continue to defend Dr. Michael Mann, author of the scientific fraud and fictional "Hockey Stick" climate plot?

Also… A good read:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Lynching-Joe-Paterno-in-th-by-Walter-Uhler-111108-300.html

Dodge

Amerika wrote: »

What government agency individuals should be brought to shame for dropping the ball in 1998 regarding Sandusky, thus allowing his crimes to continue?

As many as neccessary. YOu have to wonder why he retired at 55 in 1999 when that becomes prime coaching age. Despite being a top DC he was never offered another job. So who else knew?

Is this the same college board of directors that fired Paterno before getting all the facts, yet continue to defend Dr. Michael Mann, author of the scientific fraud and fictional "Hockey Stick" climate plot?

Don't know anything about Michael Mann, but do you not think the Grand Jury findings were enough to Fire Paterno and the rest?

Amerika

Dodge wrote: »

As many as neccessary. YOu have to wonder why he retired at 55 in 1999 when that becomes prime coaching age. Despite being a top DC he was never offered another job. So who else knew?

Yes, including the district attorneys office, the police, the department of public welfare, and child and youth protective services. Perhaps if they did their jobs correctly, subsequent crimes would not have been committed. Will anyone of them suffer or lose their jobs? And Sandusky probably retired and never coached again becasue of the 1998 matter.

Don't know anything about Michael Mann, but do you not think the Grand Jury findings were enough to Fire Paterno and the rest?

The grand jury findings alone are enough to fire Paterno. Perhaps as more information comes out I will change my tune, but as of right now it appears to be a rush to judgement against Paterno. The grand jury report does not claim Paterno did anything wrong or lied. He did report the second hand info and vague report of what he was informed to Shultz, who was in charge of campus police (who are real police). The report indicates that it was Schultz who was in violation of failing to report.

Dodge

Amerika wrote: »

Yes, including the district attorneys office, the police, the department of public welfare, and child and youth protective services. Perhaps if they did their jobs correctly, subsequent crimes would not have been committed. Will anyone of them suffer or lose their jobs?

I hope anybody who contributed to more children being raped is punished. Whats your point here?

And Sandusky probably retired and never coached again becasue of the 1998 matter.

it was a simple retirement why would he remain with an office on campus? If it was a 'simple' retriement you think paterno asked him why? You're trying to suggest its because of the 1998 incident. So how do you think that conversation went?

The grand jury findings alone are enough to fire Paterno. Perhaps as more information comes out I will change my tune, but as of right now it appears to be a rush to judgement against Paterno. The grand jury report does not claim Paterno did anything wrong or lied.

It found out he did not report the incident to police. Thats enough for me.

He did report the second hand info and vague report of what he was informed to Shultz, who was in charge of campus police (who are real police). The report indicates that it was Schultz who was in violation of failing to report.

"vague report". Sweet ****ing jesus

Syferus

Penn State, even with the size of the circus surrounding the case, probably should have given Paterno at least a farewell game if not until the end of the season. That'd have at least mitigated against the sheer shock of it for the students and the town and avoided alot of the scenes we've seen and probably will see on Saturday and for the rest of the season.

vetinari

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Paterno is taking the most heat here. He was told a serious allegation and reported it to his superiors. In terms of moral obligation, surely the person who actually SAW the rape take place should have gone to the authorities.

Imagine if someone came to you and said they saw a friend of yours rape a 10 year old boy. They then DON'T go to the authorities. I know it sounds shocking but I'd be questioning whether it was true. I mean who in their right mind witnesses a rape and doesn't tell the authorities. Am I missing something here? Paterno could have done more but for me surely all the "moral indigation" should fall on the key witness.

PeakOutput

vetinari wrote: »

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Paterno is taking the most heat here. He was told a serious allegation and reported it to his superiors. In terms of moral obligation, surely the person who actually SAW the rape take place should have gone to the authorities.

Paterno is taking the most heat because he is the head honcho on campus. He had a superior in title only (the director of athletics). In Penn state nobody was more important, had more influence or took as much authority as he did. With all that comes a responsibility as well, one he did not live up to in this particular case. His superior (I believe) has been arrested as it was his responsibility to report it to the authorities and he didn't. I have only recently been into college football for the last year or so but every commentator I have heard talk about him says the same thing, there wasn't anyone on campus going against him and he set the atmosphere if he took interest in something you did if he wanted something left alone it was left alone.

Both joe and the witness did everything they were supposed to do legally, morally however they both fell way way short.

I just heard on the thundering herd on espn that there was a third time this guy was caught in the act and it was still all brushed under the carpet. This podcast and the mike and mike podcast would make very interesting listening today for anyone that is interested

eagle eye

PeakOutput wrote: »

There was an eye witness and there were questions about his behaviour with children before



The fact that you put the welfare of an adult, friend or not, over the welfare of even one child not to mention the potentially hundreds or thousands that he was exposed to over the last 10 years is extremely worrying.

personally I would have done what he did whilst insisting that it be rigorously investigated, I would have tried to personally ensure that the child in question was helped in anyway possible and if I didnt think it was being dealt with satisfactorily or if I thought there was the slightest hint of a cover up (ie the police not immediately notified once there is any sort of evidence of wrongdoing or inappropriate behaviour) I would personally report it to the local police.

How on earth do you make out that I'm putting the welfare of an adult before a child? How dare you accuse me of that.

I'm simply saying that in a situation where its a friend who you've known a long time its not the done thing to go to the police yourself. You pass it along to the people who are in charge of the school and let them proceed.

What you don't seem to understand is that there are victims on both sides of this. The family of the accused(if he has one) are victims in this too, they may also be close friends of Paterno. You have to understand that his position in all of this is very difficult. You don't go to the police on a friend if you believe he may be innocent. I personally believe that Paterno made a very sensible and mature decision on this at the time. What you are talking about is aftermath, how do you know Paterno was not told that everything was dealt with and there was nothing to the incident? Would Paterno be wrong to take them at their word if that was the case?

vetinari

exactly, this is the point I was trying to make. God forbid something like this happens at your place of work. Someone comes to you with allegations and you tell your superior. The expectation would be that the accuser would go to the cops or your superiors. If neither do, then you're left in a difficult spot. Do you go down to the police station and say someone came to me with serious allegations but doesn't want to report it?

What happens if you tell the cops and the accuser backs out of telling his story? You'd have no evidence and you'd just have accused someone of being a paedophile.

Dodge

Seriously? You'd worry how people saw you if you were told about a grown man raping a 10 year old and reported it to the police? We're not talking about putting it on TMZ, we're talking about reporting the raping of a child to the police...

And to answer the original query, we're talking about Paterno because he's the person we know. We don't know the AD and all the various VPs. He's the one in the public eye, so he's being discussed

I don't think anyone thinks Paterno is at the heart of the problems, or even one of the worst offenders. But it was still absolutely correct that he was sacked.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

Seriously? You'd worry how people saw you if you were told about a grown man raping a 10 year old and reported it to the police? We're not talking about putting it on TMZ, we're talking about reporting the raping of a child to the police...

And to answer the original query, we're talking about Paterno because he's the person we know. We don't know the AD and all the various VPs. He's the one in the public eye, so he's being discussed

I don't think anyone thinks Paterno is at the heart of the problems, or even one of the worst offenders. But it was still absolutely correct that he was sacked.

Really you don't have a clue whether that was the right decision or not. You are only surmising like the rest of us. We don't really know what went on there. If he was lead to believe that everything had been dealt with in the correct manner then its wrong that he was sacked. I'd imagine thats not the case because he has been sacked but I don't know.

Dodge

I've read the grand Jury, and I've read everything Paterno and penn state have said

I'm ok with saying it was absolutely the right decision

vetinari

Dodge wrote: »

Seriously? You'd worry how people saw you if you were told about a grown man raping a 10 year old and reported it to the police? We're not talking about putting it on TMZ, we're talking about reporting the raping of a child to the police...

And to answer the original query, we're talking about Paterno because he's the person we know. We don't know the AD and all the various VPs. He's the one in the public eye, so he's being discussed

I don't think anyone thinks Paterno is at the heart of the problems, or even one of the worst offenders. But it was still absolutely correct that he was sacked.

Yes I would worry about reporting a rape allegation if the person who told me about it wouldn't tell the police. I'd have no proof, only second hand testimony. He doesn't even know who the victim was. How does that work down at the police station?

"Well officer, a coworker told me he witnessed x raping someone. That person won't report it though. I don't know who it was he raped either"

If the police approach the accuser and he denies it telling you about it, you look like you're making a false accusation.

Dodge

but you're Joe Paterno, if you tell a graduate assistant to do it, he does it.

It was the Penn State way...

PeakOutput

eagle eye wrote: »

How on earth do you make out that I'm putting the welfare of an adult before a child? How dare you accuse me of that.

You said it yourself thats how I make it out. You said if you had an inkling of doubt (an inkling? really?) you would not report it to the police, that, imo, is putting the welfare of the adult ahead of that of the child. I would do it the other way if I had an inkling of something like this happening I would be reporting it to someone and if there was any more then an inkling I would be into my superiors to tell them im on the way to the cop shop. If I am wrong I am wrong but the alternative is unacceptable.

I'm simply saying that in a situation where its a friend who you've known a long time its not the done thing to go to the police yourself. You pass it along to the people who are in charge of the school and let them proceed.

yes and when they do nothing and the person is continued to be allowed work with kids after multiple allegations what do you do then? forget about it? are you mad?

What you don't seem to understand is that there are victims on both sides of this. The family of the accused(if he has one) are victims in this too, they may also be close friends of Paterno.

Whos' fault is that?

You have to understand that his position in all of this is very difficult. You don't go to the police on a friend if you believe he may be innocent.

He was witnessed (twice now it emerges) performing sexual acts on a child. You should have went to the police the first time not to mind the second.

What you are talking about is aftermath, how do you know Paterno was not told that everything was dealt with and there was nothing to the incident? Would Paterno be wrong to take them at their word if that was the case?

Someone comes to me and says they personally saw this happening. I report it onwards and then get told there was nothing to it, I would at the very least go back to the person who told me they saw it and ask them to clarify exactly what they saw.

Here is a timeline of events from the AP http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html?ref=mostpopular

I strongly recommend people you read it and then think if they can still possibly hold the same opinion that these people might not have known enough to report anything. This was a repeated pattern.

One particular point of note is that before the 2002 incident this happened

1998 – Victim 6 is taken into the locker rooms and showers when he is 11 years old. When Victim 6 is dropped off at home, his hair is wet from showering with Sandusky. His mother reports the incident to the university police, who investigate.

Sandusky says he has showered with other boys and Victim 6's mother tries to make Sandusky promise never to shower with a boy again but he will not. At the end of the second conversation, after Sandusky is told he cannot see Victim 6 anymore, Schreffler testifies Sandusky says, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead."

Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.

Fall 2000 – A janitor named James Calhoun observes Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Football Building with a young boy, known as Victim 8, pinned up against the wall, performing oral sex on the boy. He tells other janitorial staff immediately. Fellow Office of Physical Plant employee Ronald Petrosky cleans the showers at Lasch and sees Sandusky and the boy, who he describes as being between the ages of 11 and 13.

what the **** was he doing near any children after that? How could paterno (lifelong friend and colleague apparently) NOT know that this had happened. How could the rest of the system not know that this had happened.

He has been banned from highschool premises, he has been told not to take kids to campus, these things were not secrets and he was allowed carry on in charge of a childrens charity and he was allowed free reign on campus.

I am sorry but there is only one right side of the argument on this one and while I dont demonise paterno or think he is a bad person I think that at best this was a huge error in judgement on his part (and others) and being fired for that error in judgement is completely fair.

LuckyLloyd

Mark May on the situation - must watch

Lirange

Just read this. Just in case anyone would still doubt that an immediate dismissal was not justified:

After that Paterno did nothing according to the grand jury’s “finding of fact” and his repeated statements this week. He didn’t call the police. He didn’t follow up with his superiors.

He had no problem as Sandusky maintained access to the Nittany Lions football facility, even working out in the weight room last week, long after Paterno had been forced to testify to the grand jury and knew Sandusky was under investigation for child molestation.

link

jack presley

Did you read about Ashton Krucher's attempt at backtracking from his support of Paterno?

He sent out a tweet saying it was disgraceful that Paterno was sacked then when got the backlash he claimed he thought he got fired because of performances on the field and that he didn't know anything about this case. Has he
been living in a cave since the weekend?

You gotta love stupid celebrities

Dodge

jack presley wrote: »

Has he been living in a cave since the weekend?

He was probably balls deep in Demi Moore in fairness to him

bruschi

mad the coverage this has got here. The times had a half page devoted to it yesterday in 2 seperate articles, and another quarter page today of the aftermath of his sacking.

Paterno has already admitted "I should have done more". Whilst I feel hugely sorry for him, it must be hard to shop a friend for doing that. you would never believe someone would be at that shít. Its not JoePas fault his buddy is a paedo. But it is his fault for not doing more. He did the legal minimum. If I knew someone was being accused of that, I could not look them in the eye after. I would never trust them.

But he had an obligation morally, to himself, his own family, to the college, and most importantly to the abused kids. more suffering occurred because it wasnt reported. if there was na inkling of doubt about him, he should have been investigated. its not the other way around.

Again, and as has been reported often, the line "I should have done more" is enough to show his guilt in not making sure the necessary was done on the matter. Its a hugley unfortunate situation for him. He should have been sent off in a celbration of his achievments and everything he did in college football. Whereas now he will be the one who covered for a paedo. I think it is right he didnt get his final game. How could the families and those abused watch whilst he was adulated and carried shoulder high off the field, knowing he had the ability to stop the hurt to them.

vinny chase

I've been absolutely sickened by the behaviour of the fans who have taken to the streets to protest Paterno's sacking. Truly incredible behaviour. Hard to know what goes through the mind of people like that.

Chardee MacDennis

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He should resign. While legally he might not have done anything wrong I think what he did morally is completely unacceptable.

of course he did something illegal, he didnt report a crime to the police - thats the law isnt it

While Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says that her office won't file charges against Joe Paterno for not reporting the alleged child sexual abuse by former Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, the 84-year-old coach could eventually face criminal charges for perjury, obstruction of justice and violating the state's Child Protective Services Law. Paterno could also become a defendant in civil lawsuits filed by Sandusky's alleged victims. Those lawsuits could allege that Paterno negligently failed to prevent a third party with whom he had a supervisory relationship (Sandusky) from committing abuse.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_mccann/11/09/joe.paterno/index.html#ixzz1dPcrkYdA

vinny chase wrote: »

I've been absolutely sickened by the behaviour of the fans who have taken to the streets to protest Paterno's sacking. Truly incredible behaviour. Hard to know what goes through the mind of people like that.

think Jon stewart does a good job summing it up

http://storyful.com/stories/1000011759

has anyone read the rumours coming out about the program? sickening stuff if true....

Amerika

Back in 1994 I reported second hand knowledge of abuse of a 12 year old by a family member to authorities and child welfare services. And I kept following up on the matter, and even tried to get custody of the child for her protection. I was threatened with criminal prosecution and civil action and my life was ruined for doing what I felt was morally right. Our legal system here often protects the accused over the victim. Years later it came out that what I reported was correct, but doesn’t change the fact that I still suffer because I did what was morally right. I am not defending Paterno’s actions, but I won’t condemn him either until I find out more legitimate information on the matter.

Dodge

Amerika wrote: »

I am not defending Paterno’s actions, but I won’t condemn him either until I find out more legitimate information on the matter.

Without trying to belittle your problems, which sound horrendous, you have to realise the status Joe Paterno had in State College. He got every thing he wanted. No question at all.

If Joe Paterno wanted a full investigation into any issue, he'd have the full support of the Police.

And again, I'm sorry for your troubles

Amerika

Dodge wrote: »

And again, I'm sorry for your troubles

Thank you. Right or wrong I have a hard time with some people’s attitude, who haven’t been put into this type of difficult position, of passing judgement upon others who try and do something about it – even minimally. The girl I spoke about is an adult today with children of her own. When I see her, she is grateful and knows what I did back then has cost me dearly. She wishes she would have been able to come live with me, as her life would have been so much different and better. She doesn’t realize that when she tells me this how it breaks my heart, and still to this day I feel like a complete failure in the matter. I often feel I will burn in hell because sometimes looking back at all the pain, I sometimes wish I would have been able to just pass on the information to someone else who’s job it would have been to alert authorities. Sounds horrible I know. But child abuse reaches very far and so very deep on so many levels. I feel all child sexual abusers deserve the death penalty, and I would even be willing to "pull the switch" on each and every one of them.

eagle eye

PeakOutput wrote: »

You said it yourself thats how I make it out. You said if you had an inkling of doubt (an inkling? really?) you would not report it to the police, that, imo, is putting the welfare of the adult ahead of that of the child. I would do it the other way if I had an inkling of something like this happening I would be reporting it to someone and if there was any more then an inkling I would be into my superiors to tell them im on the way to the cop shop. If I am wrong I am wrong but the alternative is unacceptable.

He did report it to his superiors.

PeakOutput wrote: »

yes and when they do nothing and the person is continued to be allowed work with kids after multiple allegations what do you do then? forget about it? are you mad?



Whos' fault is that?

I think its quite clear whose fault it is when its proven that he actually did it but not while he is still an innocent person by law and I'm thinking in real time here not in hindsight. You still fail to understand though that there are victims on both sides of this. It comes across that you are only concerned about one victim here and don't see the full picture. This is an extremely difficult situation to be in if you are friends with a family where somebody has been accused of something like this.

PeakOutput wrote: »

He was witnessed (twice now it emerges) performing sexual acts on a child. You should have went to the police the first time not to mind the second.

This is one person's word against another. Whose side do you take?

PeakOutput wrote: »

Someone comes to me and says they personally saw this happening. I report it onwards and then get told there was nothing to it, I would at the very least go back to the person who told me they saw it and ask them to clarify exactly what they saw.

Most people would just stay away from that person and not want anything to do with them.

PeakOutput wrote: »

Here is a timeline of events from the AP http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html?ref=mostpopular

I strongly recommend people you read it and then think if they can still possibly hold the same opinion that these people might not have known enough to report anything. This was a repeated pattern.

He did report it to his superiors from what I've read.

One particular point of note is that before the 2002 incident this happened



what the **** was he doing near any children after that? How could paterno (lifelong friend and colleague apparently) NOT know that this had happened. How could the rest of the system not know that this had happened.

He has been banned from highschool premises, he has been told not to take kids to campus, these things were not secrets and he was allowed carry on in charge of a childrens charity and he was allowed free reign on campus.

I am sorry but there is only one right side of the argument on this one and while I dont demonise paterno or think he is a bad person I think that at best this was a huge error in judgement on his part (and others) and being fired for that error in judgement is completely fair.

You are really just banging the same drum here with the rest of your post so I'll leave it at that.

Peyton Manning

As usual, the Onion is the voice of reason here and rips the media's handling of this to shreds in it's own unique way.

STATE COLLEGE, PA—After former Penn State defensive coach Jerry Sandusky was charged Saturday with multiple counts of involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, corruption of minors, indecent assault, and unlawful contact with minors, the national sports media sought out his victims this week to ask if they were worried about Joe Paterno's legacy and how their molestations might affect the recently fired head coach's place in the history books.

Describing the downfall of Paterno as "clearly the most devastating thing to come out of the sex scandal," outlets from ESPN to USA Today asked Sandusky's victims if, while being forced to engage in oral and anal sex with a man 40 to 50 years their senior, their primary fear was for Paterno's reputation—and, specifically, for how revelations of their suffering might diminish his two national championships, three Big Ten titles, and 24 bowl victories.

"This is obviously a sensitive subject for you, and I understand how difficult and uncomfortable it must be to talk about the abrupt end of JoePa's career, but as a journalist, it's my responsibility to weed past the 40 counts of sexual misconduct over a 15-year period and the gross negligence on the part of school authorities and ask about what is really important here: Joe Paterno's football accomplishments," Steve Wieberg of USA Today said to one anonymous victim, who was 10 years old when Sandusky assaulted him and who now suffers from irreparable emotional and psychological damage. "He is the winningest Division I football coach of all time and a man whose very name is synonymous with excellence. As a Penn State fan yourself, this must be very tough for you."

"When you told your family how Coach Sandusky forced you to engage in illicit 'soap battles' with him in the shower, what were their thoughts on Joe Paterno?" he continued as the abuse victim stared silently back at him. "Was their immediate response worry and concern for how this might tarnish his six Fiesta Bowl wins?"

Given the delicate situation, sportswriters said they felt the need to tread lightly and initially only asked victims how they thought Paterno might be feeling during this difficult time. They then followed up with more substantial questions about being exploited and preyed upon by a sexual deviant, such as how the victims thought their being pinned against a wall while Sandusky assaulted them might hurt Penn State's 2012 recruiting class; how covering up a systematic pedophile victim-grooming pipeline, in the form of youth football camps, might damage the culture of winning Paterno worked so hard to establish; and whether they were worried about the mental state of the team heading into Saturday's game against Nebraska.

In addition, various representatives from CNN, The New York Times, and Sports Illustrated asked the victims—all of whom will reportedly have to undergo therapy for the rest of their lives—how they thought Paterno's wife, Sue, and their five children were holding up.

Sources later confirmed that one victim, who couldn't stop shaking his head while being questioned, began sobbing openly when asked if he would join the throngs of students who took to the streets to protest the head coach's ouster, and if he thought his molestation would overshadow Paterno's renowned ability to graduate his players.

"The victim I spoke to, who was 12 years old when Sandusky first took advantage of him, looked very upset throughout the entire interview," Sports Illustrated writer Stewart Mandel said. "And when I asked whether he was concerned not just for how Joe Paterno would be remembered, but also for the football program's ability to recover, he told me the interview was over and I should get out of his house."

"Can you blame him, though?" Mandel added. "A coaching legend's reputation hangs in the balance. I'm just as hurt and frustrated as he is."

Many members of the sports media said they found the victims equally uncooperative and generally disinterested in Paterno's Bear Bryant, Walter Camp, and Eddie Robinson Coach of the Year Awards. According to the journalists, shock and trauma were possible reasons for this response, and the victim's were more than likely speechless due to the thought of Paterno's storied career ending on such a sour note.

"I think right now they just need some time," said ESPN senior writer Ivan Maisel, who, in light of the allegations of misconduct at every level of Penn State's administration and the dozens of ruined lives that resulted, filed a column about Paterno's football legacy Wednesday. "I'm sure they'll be better when the dust settles and they realize just how impressive 409 victories really is."

At press time, the victims of years and years of psyche-destroying sexual abuse released a joint statement saying they were not concerned about Joe Paterno's legacy.