The End of JoePa in Penn State

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It hasn't really left itself open. The NCAA can administer any punishment they see fit, it doesn't matter if it's as equal as the last on for the previous offence. They have no rules set in stone that say X violation will lead to Y punishment. It's no different to everyone other Governing body.

You're probably right on the punishment aspect but they have now shown what they view to be an acceptable penalty for covering up illegal activities on campus. They have also shown that they are now also willing to punish schools for activities that fall outside their domain.

The NCAA has never to my knowledge punished schools for breaking the law. They have left that to the relevant authorities. The NCAA has no jurisdiction in a court of law and cannot gather all available facts for a case yet they see fit to wade into this legal minefield now and in future. Where do they draw the line in relation to criminal behaviour?

I'm just after seeing this on SI.com and it does a much better job of explaining what i was trying to illustrate with the NCAA setting precedent for a penalty:

If you ban a program from competition, you need a little something called "a reason." It can't just be that something horrible happened, because what if something horrible happens somewhere else, as it inevitably will? When Southern Methodist University got hit with the Death Penalty in the 1980s, the reason was simple: SMU continually and systematically broke NCAA rules, even as the school was hit with penalties for breaking those rules. That set a precedent: Repeat violators run the risk of the Death Penalty.
What is the reason for giving Penn State the Death Penalty? I assume most people would say that PSU administrators deliberately ignored unlawful conduct, putting many more people in jeopardy. Well, what happens next year if:
A. A star athlete somewhere else fails a drug test.
B. The athlete's coach decides to ignore the test.
C. The kid takes drugs again, gets behind the wheel of a car and hits a pedestrian.
Would that school get the Death Penalty? I don't think the NCAA wants to set this precedent.

Chucky the tree

That school probably wouldn't get the death penalty. There is a fairly obvious difference. The only precedent the NCAA has set is that if you cover-up illegal actions taken by your coachs then your are open to punishment by the NCAA. I don't see that as a bad precedent. For example the NFL didn't set a precedent for banning every player who tarnishes there image for 6 games after the Rothleisberger case. The NFL/NCAA will simply look at each individual case and judge the appropriate punishment that should be handed out.

davyjose

BastardPrince wrote: »

it was the Freeh report that the punishment was based on though, it was only released last week.

Yes but they didn't wait for this to relieve JP of duty. I mean, they knew these things had happened for months now, and they knew there would be massive fallout from it. If they gave a **** about the student athletes the window for them to move schools would have been more than a goddamn month.

And lets suppose you're an above average senior/junior linebacker with a chance of going in the 4th or 5th round next year. What chance have you now? Zero.

And let's suppose you had a solid college career from, say 2002-2006, something to be very proud of, what now? you're entire sporting achievements have been wiped out of the history books? That's horrible and once again the NCAA have shown they don't give a flying **** about the unpaid young men who bust their asses to make them multi-millionaires.

It's a joke. As JMH said there are a handful of men responsible and it is them, and them alone who should bear the punishment. Not an entire school and it's alumni.

LuckyLloyd

I'm actually flabbergasted at the positions people are taking on this thread.

CoachTO

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm actually flabbergasted at the positions people are taking on this thread.

Why because they don't all follow your opinion? People will form a difference of opinion on subject like this.

Chardee MacDennis

davyjose wrote: »

Yes but they didn't wait for this to relieve JP of duty. I mean, they knew these things had happened for months now, and they knew there would be massive fallout from it. If they gave a **** about the student athletes the window for them to move schools would have been more than a goddamn month.

Sorry the NCAA didn't fire Joe Paterno... Also so you're saying NCAA should have decided these kind of punishments without a properly investigated report.

Rented Mule

davyjose wrote: »

Yes but they didn't wait for this to relieve JP of duty. I mean, they knew these things had happened for months now, and they knew there would be massive fallout from it. If they gave a **** about the student athletes the window for them to move schools would have been more than a goddamn month.

The writing was on the wall. These players knew what was coming. If football is the only reason that they were at Penn State, then they should have been prepared for the worst.

And lets suppose you're an above average senior/junior linebacker with a chance of going in the 4th or 5th round next year. What chance have you now? Zero.

Any player of this level is going to have multiple universities interested in them. They'll have no problem finding a high profile program to play for.

And let's suppose you had a solid college career from, say 2002-2006, something to be very proud of, what now? you're entire sporting achievements have been wiped out of the history books? That's horrible and once again the NCAA have shown they don't give a flying **** about the unpaid young men who bust their asses to make them multi-millionaires.

That's honestly laughable. How does the record being vacated effect someone ten years later ? It doesn't.

I will post this again. The NCAA just gave every single Penn State football player the greatest gift in the world. Every one of these football players can get up and walk away from the greatest sports scandal to ever happen in college sports. They can attend the college/university of their choice. They can continue to play football. They get to graduate from a university and receive a diploma that doesn't have Penn State University on it. They get to go to job interviews for the rest of their lives and not have to put Penn State University on their resumes. It's Christmas in Happy Valley Pa. if you are a football player.

Dodge

davyjose wrote: »

And let's suppose you had a solid college career from, say 2002-2006, something to be very proud of, what now? you're entire sporting achievements have been wiped out of the history books? That's horrible and once again the NCAA have shown they don't give a flying **** about the unpaid young men who bust their asses to make them multi-millionaires

In this whole thing, you think having records of games 10 years ago is the "horrible" thing. Get some perspective man.

NCAA have tons of problems, but glad to see they acted here.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

The NCAA just gave every single Penn State football player the greatest gift in the world. greatest sports scandal to ever happen in college sports.

Greatest 'sports' scandal? Its got nothing to do with sport. What happened here was horrific but it had nothing to do football. It just so happened that a horrible despicable animal was employed in football and that senior figures at the university covered it up one of which was the football head coach. Its got nothing to do with sports though. there was no wrongdoing on the field or that involved cheating to gain an advantage in the sport.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

In this whole thing, you think having records of games 10 years ago is the "horrible" thing. Get some perspective man.

NCAA have tons of problems, but glad to see they acted here.

Oh will you ever get a grip and quit trying to belittle a point like that.

I think like myself and others that davyjose understands that there are serious victims here. We are old and mature enough to have a discussion that takes them into account without mentioning them every post or using them to belittle someone's point.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Greatest 'sports' scandal? Its got nothing to do with sport. What happened here was horrific but it had nothing to do football. It just so happened that a horrible despicable animal was employed in football and that senior figures at the university covered it up one of which was the football head coach. Its got nothing to do with sports though. there was no wrongdoing on the field or that involved cheating to gain an advantage in the sport.

It has everything to do with football. Sandusky wasn't reported to the authorities to protect the image of the football program. The football program was put ahead of the welfare of these children. That is the entire reason the NCAA is involved.

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Oh will you ever get a grip and quit trying to belittle a point like that.

I think like myself and others that davyjose understands that there are serious victims here. We are old and mature enough to have a discussion that takes them into account without mentioning them every post or using them to belittle someone's point.

I'll belittle whatever BS points I like. The problem here is that a football programme and university did all it could to hide the fact they knew one of their coaches raped and abused children. Tough if you don't like hearing that.

The football programme and the university are rightfully being punished.

As if the players involved care about their records. They know they won the games FFS

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

As if the players involved care about their records. They know they won the games FFS

If it doesn't matter that much then why take it off them officially?

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

If it doesn't matter that much then why take it off them officially?

Because it matters to the university

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

If it doesn't matter that much then why take it off them officially?

This was the only way to punish Joe Paterno. He no longer officially has 408 wins (which put him atop the All Time Wins Leader).

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

This was the only way to punish Joe Paterno. He no longer officially has 408 wins (which put him atop the All Time Wins Leader).

You cannot punish a dead man. Dead is dead, he knows nothing about it.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

If it doesn't matter that much then why take it off them officially?

Because the desire to achieve those wins is what caused the people involved to make the horrible decision they did They covered up to protect the University's ability to continue winning football matches and adding to the legacy.

eagle eye wrote: »

You cannot punish a dead man. Dead is dead, he knows nothing about it.

You denigrate his legend, and taint his achievements. And that has been necessary given the reaction of the Joe Pa / PSU Football cult every step of the way on this. The message is clear: if you prioritise winning over human welfare you deserve no recognition.

JaMarcus Hustle

Dodge wrote: »

The problem here is that a football programme and university did all it could to hide the fact they knew one of their coaches raped and abused children. Tough if you don't like hearing that.

The football programme and the university are rightfully being punished.

The football programme didn't hide or cover up anything, those in charge of it did. They now have no affiliation with Penn State whatsoever and yesterday's sanctions don't affect them in the slightest. But yet it's the people who have been brought in to replace them that are being punished.

Penn State is a sinking ship with thousands of passengers. The handful of men who crashed it aren't on board anymore, yet the NCAA thought it a good idea to torpedo the ship to make sure it sinks anyway.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

You cannot punish a dead man. Dead is dead, he knows nothing about it.

Legacies outlive all of us. The university will never be able to 'market' the Joe Paterno legacy as the 'winningest coach in NCAA football history'.

LuckyLloyd

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

The football programme didn't hide or cover up anything, those in charge of it did. They now have no affiliation with Penn State whatsoever and yesterday's sanctions don't affect them in the slightest. But yet it's the people who have been brought in to replace them that are being punished.

Penn State is a sinking ship with thousands of passengers. The handful of men who crashed it aren't on board anymore, yet the NCAA thought it a good idea to torpedo the ship to make sure it sinks anyway.

What should the sanctions have been in your opinion? Should there have been no sanctions?

Dodge

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

The football programme didn't hide or cover up anything, those in charge of it did. They now have no affiliation with Penn State whatsoever and yesterday's sanctions don't affect them in the slightest. But yet it's the people who have been brought in to replace them that are being punished.

So it prevents the next scandal hit university from sacking everyone and saying "look, they're all gone we did nothing wrong, it was all them"

Penn State is a sinking ship with thousands of passengers. The handful of men who crashed it aren't on board anymore, yet the NCAA thought it a good idea to torpedo the ship to make sure it sinks anyway.

You really think the NCAA wanted to do this? Jeeez

JaMarcus Hustle

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What should the sanctions have been in your opinion? Should there have been no sanctions?

I don't know what the alternatives were, I'm not denying the NCAA were in a difficult position, I just think they took the easy way out. I just don't think you punish this like you a do a recruiting violation that gives you a competitive advantage. It's a completely different and unprecedented situation.

Maybe a 5/10 year probation, $60 million fine and compulsory overhaul of the reporting structure in place. I don't know, all I know is that if a parent killed to protect their child, you don't punish the child.

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Penn State is a sinking ship with thousands of passengers. The handful of men who crashed it aren't on board anymore, yet the NCAA thought it a good idea to torpedo the ship to make sure it sinks anyway.

The Penn State football program has 85 scholarship players. These are the people who are effected most. They all have a right to leave this 'sinking ship' and finish their degrees elsewhere.

Let's talk about 'perspective'. Do you know what Penn State Football (and the entire NCAA to go with it) is ? It's Saturday entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less. It's something to watch on Saturday afternoons from September to November before the Bowl season starts. Don't put anything more into it. It really starts to cloud peoples judgement when they start to elevate it's importance.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Because the desire to achieve those wins is what caused the people involved to make the horrible decision they did They covered up to protect the University's ability to continue winning football matches and adding to the legacy.

As said by JMH, a couple of people hid this. None of them have anything to do with the University now. They deserve to be punished. The alumni, the present students, the new administrators and everybody else presently employed in this school do no deserve to be punished for what happened.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You denigrate his legend, and taint his achievements. And that has been necessary given the reaction of the Joe Pa / PSU Football cult every step of the way on this. The message is clear: if you prioritise winning over human welfare you deserve no recognition.

Take him off the record books if you wish but don't take the bowl wins or championships away because thats something thats very special to a lot of innocent people.
Can you honestly state that if this all came out at the very beginning that it would have affected Penn State football? I don't think it would have made any difference to the football program.

JaMarcus Hustle

Dodge wrote: »

So it prevents the next scandal hit university from sacking everyone and saying "look, they're all gone we did nothing wrong, it was all them"

It doesn't, but they've punished a human crime with a sporting punishment. They've decided that Jerry Sandusky raping children is worth twice as many scholarships revoked as USC giving Reggie Bush a house. There's just something wrong about handing out similar punishments. To be honest, they really didn't have any authority to hand out what I think the punishment should be. Only the courts can (and will) do that. But I do acknowledge the crap situation they were in.

You really think the NCAA wanted to do this? Jeeez

Of course not, and I never said as much.

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

It doesn't, but they've punished a human crime with a sporting punishment. They've decided that Jerry Sandusky raping children is worth twice as many scholarships revoked as USC giving Reggie Bush a house. There's just something wrong about handing out similar punishments. To be honest, they really didn't have any authority to hand out what I think the punishment should be. Only the courts can (and will) do that. But I do acknowledge the crap situation they were in..

Do you really think that Jerry Sandusky raping at least a dozen children is the same as the Reggie Bush situation at USC ?

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

Do you really think that Jerry Sandusky raping at least a dozen children is the same as the Reggie Bush situation at USC ?

That's exactly the point I'm making. Look back at this in 20 years and you'll see the NCAA have directly compared this to the USC scandal. Do you think that's appropriate?

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

That's exactly the point I'm making.

Ok. Thank you.

The NCAA put it quite simply. Penn State created a culture that put the importance of the football program ahead of 'education, nurturing and the protection of children'.

Again, they put 'Saturday entertainment' ahead of the welfare of at least a dozen children.

Chardee MacDennis

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

They've decided that Jerry Sandusky raping children is worth twice as many scholarships revoked as USC giving Reggie Bush a house.

Surely you could say that about any punishment?

Dodge

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

That's exactly the point I'm making. Look back at this in 20 years and you'll see the NCAA have directly compared this to the USC scandal. Do you think that's appropriate?

They can't just magic up punishments. They have to look at what ways they can punish them, and they gave them as strong as they probably could. The next step would be suspension of the football programme or worse. I can't see what else they could've done.

Going by you logic, you can't give a man 15 years in prison for manslughter because someone can get one for robbery*


*figures plucked from ass

JaMarcus Hustle

BastardPrince wrote: »

Surely you could say that about any punishment?

You probably could, but any punishment the NCAA has handed out before have been for direct sporting violations, i.e. recruiting violations. They've never had anything like this to deal with before, and I'm of the opinion that handing out similar sanctions isn't appropriate. I don't believe there was an appropriate punishment the NCAA could legally hand out.

Rented Mule wrote:

The NCAA put it quite simply. Penn State created a culture that put the importance of the football program ahead of 'education, nurturing and the protection of children'.

Again, they put 'Saturday entertainment' ahead of the welfare of at least a dozen children.

That's sensationalist crap. Penn State didn't create anything, don't for a second believe that Penn State have a "keep child molestation cases or anything that could damage our reputation to yourself" condition written into contracts. Have you actually read the Freeh Report? It's decidely unambiguous in it's findings that this was covered up due to the actions of 4 men (5 if you include Sandusky himself I guess) acting outside of the structure in place at Penn State. Every time you mentioned "Penn State did this" or "They did that", try to remember you're talking about 5 people.

Did Penn State create a culture where their football program is to be held in high esteem? Yes, like every other FBS university in the country. Did they create a culture where child molestation is to be overlooked? Absolute bollox.

CoachTO

What I find nuts is the amount of people on here posting what the media have sprouted rather than what the Freeh Report has actually stated.

Here it is for those who obviously haven't read the thing:

http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/

Honestly before I read the Freeh report last night in its entirety I was all for the punishment laid about the NCAA but after reading it my stance has changed. I do agree the University should be punished but the severity of it is so bad they would have been better off with a death penalty of 1 year without a football program.

frostie500

Rented Mule wrote: »

Ok. Thank you.

The NCAA put it quite simply. Penn State created a culture that put the importance of the football program ahead of 'education, nurturing and the protection of children'.

Again, they put 'Saturday entertainment' ahead of the welfare of at least a dozen children.

How does the penalties handed out help the victims of Sandusky? How does making Penn State football irrelevant for the next ten years help the other student associations (sporting and social) at Penn State to move on from this? Without football revenue a lot of other aspects of life for Penn State's student body are badly affected by this fine.

It's been said by a few people here that having a Penn State degree now will make it difficult to get work when they finish school, how does this help those students?

By penalising the school so harshly has the NCAA not also put "Saturday entertainment" on too high a pedestal? They are now, in effect, saying that Penn State put winning football games ahead of the safety of students so we will punish them by taking away those wins and making sure that the black mark of the school continues to be felt for a very long time.

The NCAA waded into waters relating to criminal behaviour well beyond its realm as an athletic association and decided that it knows better than the courts who have put the main culprit behind bars and will do the same to the others involved in this coverup.

My points earlier on were not in support of not giving Penn State penalties it was rather that i think that the NCAA has now put itself into a position where it now has to act on matters involving criminal activities on campus. Penn State were not hiding from this scandal. They sacked the main people involved in it and commisioned the Freeh report which was exceptionally damning on the school.

They weren't hiding with their head in the sand they were ready and willing to punish those responsible while also allowing the school to move on with some semblance of dignity for their alumi and students. These sanctions do nothing to help the school or the victims to move on

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Did they create a culture where child molestation is to be overlooked? Absolute bollox.

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

frostie500

Rented Mule wrote: »

That's is exactly what Joe Paterno, Tim Curley, Gary Schultz and Graham Spanier did.

Read through JMH's posts in their entirity rather than quoting a single line and it's quite clear that he feels, as backed up by the Freeh report, that these men were acting in isolation and not acting as Penn State University.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

This affects 85 scholarship athletes who can all play for Penn State or transfer elsewhere.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

This affects 85 scholarship athletes who can all play for Penn State or transfer elsewhere.

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

Rented Mule

frostie500 wrote: »

Read through JMH's posts in their entirity rather than quoting a single line and it's quite clear that he feels, as backed up by the Freeh report, that these men were acting in isolation and not acting as Penn State University.

There isn't a facepalm big enough.

Let's see. We have the Head Football Coach, the Athletic Director, the University Vice President as well as the University President.

They are the guiding forces behind the University. They act on behalf of the entire University on a daily basis. It is their defined role at the University.

Chardee MacDennis

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats four people and you want to bring the hammer down on thousands because of what those four did.

exactly so in the future when someone thinks about doing the something similar, they will know it's not worth it...

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You probably could, but any punishment the NCAA has handed out before have been for direct sporting violations, i.e. recruiting violations. They've never had anything like this to deal with before, and I'm of the opinion that handing out similar sanctions isn't appropriate. I don't believe there was an appropriate punishment the NCAA could legally hand out.

So should the NCAA have done nothing? I don't believe that was an option.

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

It doesn't affect the alumni one bit.

Current students are affected how ? They don't get to go to a Bowl game?

Administrators? I'm guessing they don't get their free trip a Bowl game.

Athletes - all scholarships are still honoured. They can transfer if they choose not to be affiliated with the University without fear of penalty

Local businesses will still have games on Saturday. The 'death penalty' was not invoked. The same amount of games will be played in Happy Valley as before the ruling.

Several charities will reap a windfall of over $60 million thanks to this ruling.

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Take off you blinkers and look around, there are thousands of people affected by this. Alumni, current students, administrators, coaches, athletes, local business people and their families and of course the charities that have been so well funded by Penn State.

Like the Sandusky charity?

Effectiely Penn State will only lose out on income from 4 bowl games. They make millions anyway. The financial argument is rubbish.

eagle eye

Rented Mule wrote: »

It doesn't affect the alumni one bit.

Current students are affected how ? They don't get to go to a Bowl game?

Administrators? I'm guessing they don't get their free trip a Bowl game.

Athletes - all scholarships are still honoured. They can transfer if they choose not to be affiliated with the University without fear of penalty

Local businesses will still have games on Saturday. The 'death penalty' was not invoked. The same amount of games will be played in Happy Valley as before the ruling.

Several charities will reap a windfall of over $60 million thanks to this ruling.

Amazing how you so quickly change your tune to suit an argument.

Rented Mule wrote: »

As far as 'collateral damage', think about what this scandal has done to the value of a Penn State degree. Imagine what it must be like to go into an interview with Penn State on your CV at the moment.

The incoming freshman class knows exactly what this University has done. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

Like the Sandusky charity?

Effectiely Penn State will only lose out on income from 4 bowl games. They make millions anyway. The financial argument is rubbish.

What is your point here? Surely raising money for charity is a good thing. The fact that the man was a despicable creature doesn't take away from people who gave money to his charity.

My argument is not all financial, its about everybody thats affected by the decisions made by a few men.

If you worked in a job and a couple of the senior management figures illegally took funds from the company would you accept that you have to be punished over it?

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

What is your point here? Surely raising money for charity is a good thing. The fact that the man was a despicable creature doesn't take away from people who gave money to his charity.

and likewise, the fact he raised mney for chairty doesn't excuse the fact he raped children

My argument is not all financial, its about everybody thats affected by the decisions made by a few men.

If you worked in a job and a couple of the senior management figures illegally took funds from the company would you accept that you have to be punished over it?

If they missed 4 end of year awards shows, I think I'd be Ok...

Rented Mule

eagle eye wrote: »

Amazing how you so quickly change your tune to suit an argument.

How is the NCAA ruling responsible for the reputation of the University?

I have changed nothing. Nice try. My stance is the same as it was from my first post in this thread.

eagle eye

Dodge wrote: »

and likewise, the fact he raised mney for chairty doesn't excuse the fact he raped children

Of course its doesn't excuse that. I'm not talking about Sandusky, I'm talking about all those innocent people who gave money to the charity.

Dodge wrote: »

If they missed 4 end of year awards shows, I think I'd be Ok...

Its a hell of a lot worse than that and you know it. I still don't know what the point of your last post was, can you explain it to me?

Dodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Its a hell of a lot worse than that and you know it.

How is it worse for the current employees?

Rented Mule

Dodge wrote: »

How is it worse for the current employees?

They'll have to watch Penn State struggle on the football field on Saturdays. That's all the NCAA has done when you look at the bigger picture. They took away scholarships and bowl bids from the football team four the next for years.

The football team will still play their regularly scheduled games, but the NCAA has made it incredibly hard for them to compete for the Big Ten title.

me-skywalker

I agree with some of the penalties and not others, some of the others.

How is reducing the scholarship going to help poorer students getting an education and avoid falling out of the system and into petty crime, organised crime or other criminal related activities. How exactly does this punish the University?

By vacating all the wins does that mean the NCAA think that the players/coaches cheated used illegal drugs?