The End of JoePa in Penn State

davyjose

Rented Mule wrote: »

Legacies outlive all of us. The university will never be able to 'market' the Joe Paterno legacy as the 'winningest coach in NCAA football history'.

And yet my point about regular ball players legacies being wiped off the records is BS? You're contradicting yourself. Why is Paterno's legacy the only one that matters?

davyjose

Rented Mule wrote: »

The writing was on the wall. These players knew what was coming. If football is the only reason that they were at Penn State, then they should have been prepared for the worst.




Any player of this level is going to have multiple universities interested in them. They'll have no problem finding a high profile program to play for.



That's honestly laughable. How does the record being vacated effect someone ten years later ? It doesn't.

I will post this again. The NCAA just gave every single Penn State football player the greatest gift in the world. Every one of these football players can get up and walk away from the greatest sports scandal to ever happen in college sports. They can attend the college/university of their choice. They can continue to play football. They get to graduate from a university and receive a diploma that doesn't have Penn State University on it. They get to go to job interviews for the rest of their lives and not have to put Penn State University on their resumes. It's Christmas in Happy Valley Pa. if you are a football player.

I'm aware the School fired paterno and co. but if the writing was on the wall surely a decision on the players future could have been expedited.

Guys, nobody here thinks that what happened is acceptable. But the punishments doled out this week affect the innocent students as much, or more, than the guys at fault here.

matthew8

The thing is if the NCAA gives out 20 less scholarships to Penn State, the players who would've been going to Penn State may be able to get one elsewhere, but at some point down the line, and it could be anywhere in the nation, 20 kids are going to miss out on scholarships because of Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky. That's not right.

There's also the issue that the Penn State academic departments will be damaged because this punishment is ruining the popularity of Penn State. The 60 million dollar fine isn't the end of the monetary cost for Penn State either. They will be getting less ticket and TV money than they used to.

Rented Mule

matthew8 wrote: »

There's also the issue that the Penn State academic departments will be damaged because this punishment is ruining the popularity of Penn State. The 60 million dollar fine isn't the end of the monetary cost for Penn State either. They will be getting less ticket and TV money than they used to.

The TV money is still there. They'll still reap the windfall from the conference contract and the Big Ten Network.

As far as ticket revenues, that's up to the 'fans' of Penn State to decide. You may be surprised to see more visiting team fans traveling to Happy Valley since tickets may be available now.

Edit - scratch that - Home games against Navy, Temple. Northwestern. Indiana and Wisconsin. They would have issues drawing without the sanctions.

Rented Mule

davyjose wrote: »

I'm aware the School fired paterno and co. but if the writing was on the wall surely a decision on the players future could have been expedited.

Guys, nobody here thinks that what happened is acceptable. But the punishments doled out this week affect the innocent students as much, or more, than the guys at fault here.

We're all on the same page with that.

I'm not sure what the NCAA could have done to expedite this ruling. With the majority of the sanctions being based on Penn State's own internal investigation.

Rented Mule

davyjose wrote: »

And yet my point about regular ball players legacies being wiped off the records is BS? You're contradicting yourself. Why is Paterno's legacy the only one that matters?

I am in no way contradicting myself.

Paterno's name was a money maker for the university for decades. By vacating the wins he no longer is the 'winningest coach in NCAA history' They can no longer cash in on his name in that regard.

Name one player in that time frame that is going to lose money/football career over the decision to vacate those wins ?

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

Edit - scratch that - Home games against Navy, Temple. Northwestern. Indiana and Wisconsin. They would have issues drawing without the sanctions.

I fail to see what gives you the impressions those home games will fail to draw people without sanctions:

Temple are in Philly and they draw big crowds when they play each other. 53,000+ went to see them in Lincoln Financial field last year. It will be the home fans that let them down but they will easily get 50% of the stadium full if not more. For the record in 2009 and 2010 they had 100k+ at the corresponding fixture.

Northwestern: 2010 attendance 100k+

Navy: I couldnt be arsed going back to find when they last played.

Indiana: Always get good crowds pre sanction for this game also. In 2010 they played in Fedex Field to a near 79,000 capacity.

Wisconsin are one of the biggest Big Ten schools and Highly doubt they will have a problem getting a big crowd at it as they always did before sanctions.

So whatever about looking into the future and assuming the attendances will drop which they most likely will. But saying they would have problems without the sanctions when history tells otherwise is silly. Again you really should have looked it up.

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

I fail to see what gives you the impressions those home games will fail to draw people without sanctions:

Temple are in Philly and they draw big crowds when they play each other. 53,000+ went to see them in Lincoln Financial field last year. It will be the home fans that let them down but they will easily get 50% of the stadium full if not more. For the record in 2009 and 2010 they had 100k+ at the corresponding fixture.

Northwestern: 2010 attendance 100k+

Navy: I couldnt be arsed going back to find when they last played.

Indiana: Always get good crowds pre sanction for this game also. In 2010 they played in Fedex Field to a near 79,000 capacity.

Wisconsin are one of the biggest Big Ten schools and Highly doubt they will have a problem getting a big crowd at it as they always did before sanctions.

So whatever about looking into the future and assuming the attendances will drop which they most likely will. But saying they would have problems without the sanctions when history tells otherwise is silly. Again you really should have looked it up.

My point was that, if the alleged fans of Penn State were not going to show up, as pointed out by a previous poster, then there may possibly be more road teams fans traveling to Happy Valley. Some of the teams they are playing, are not known for having large touring fans bases.

Is it that hard to figure out?

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

We're all on the same page with that.

I'm not sure what the NCAA could have done to expedite this ruling. With the majority of the sanctions being based on Penn State's own internal investigation.

You don't think the Freeh Report was an internal investigation, do you?

Have you read it?

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

My point was that, if the alleged fans of Penn State were not going to show up, as pointed out by a previous poster, then there may possibly be more road teams fans traveling to Happy Valley. Some of the teams they are playing, are not known for having large touring fans bases.

Is it that hard to figure out?

Lol @ your use of the word alleged.

You're questioning their fandom now? You do realise that Penn State have already sold more season tickets for 2012 already than they did for 2011? You do realise they have the largest alumni association of any college in the world? And you do realise that is no difference between the freshman enrollment figures of last compared to this year?

Of course you're not. I think you know absolutely nothing about Penn State tbh.

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

You don't think the Freeh Report was an internal investigation, do you?

Have you read it?

Are you serious ? Do you have any idea who commissioned the Freeh Report ?

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/20120723/21207233

As a result of information produced from the Sandusky criminal investigation and the Freeh Report, which Penn State commissioned and also agreed to its findings, it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct.

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Lol @ your use of the word alleged.

You're questioning their fandom now? You do realise that Penn State have already sold more season tickets for 2012 already than they did for 2011? You do realise they have the largest alumni association of any college in the world? And you do realise that is no difference between the freshman enrollment figures of last compared to this year?

Of course you're not. I think you know absolutely nothing about Penn State tbh.

It was in regards to a statement that the original poster who stated that they would lose money on tickets and television revenues. You can scroll up and see what I was responding to.

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

Are you serious ? Do you have any idea who commissioned the Freeh Report ?

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/20120723/21207233

As a result of information produced from the Sandusky criminal investigation and the Freeh Report, which Penn State commissioned and also agreed to its findings, it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct.

Wow, seriously? You think because Penn State commissioned the report, it's therefore an internal report? Do you know what an internal report even means?!

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

My point was that, if the alleged fans of Penn State were not going to show up, as pointed out by a previous poster, then there may possibly be more road teams fans traveling to Happy Valley. Some of the teams they are playing, are not known for having large touring fans bases.

Is it that hard to figure out?

Oh I am sorry for reading your post at face value wrong. You clearly said:

Edit - scratch that - Home games against Navy, Temple. Northwestern. Indiana and Wisconsin. They would have issues drawing without the sanctions.

Had Penn State not got hit with any sanctions Im almost sure they would draw the same crowds they always have.

But ok lets play your game. You can take Temple off your list as they are in Pennsylvania and travel well. Navy are in Maryland so not that far too travel and Naval officers and Alumni and students tend to travel to games better than they do at home. Indiana's and Wisconsin fans travel well according to a friend who is a Badger Alumn I just text and for the amount of seats they are given always come close to filling their allocation in most stadiums. Wisconsin usually have around 4-5k students and alum go to their bigger games.

But remember this Penn State have always depended on their home fans anyways as 95k of those fans are home fans usually home fans. They usually have between 3-10k away fans there from the away team depending on the size of the college and the importance of the game.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

Are you serious ? Do you have any idea who commissioned the Freeh Report ?

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/20120723/21207233

As a result of information produced from the Sandusky criminal investigation and the Freeh Report, which Penn State commissioned and also agreed to its findings, it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct.

I'm failing to see what you are trying to conclude by pointing out that Penn State commissioned the report. They have to commission to allow any investigation happen. It shows they were willing to be transparent by allowing an independant report to be created by Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan LLC. It was nowhere near being an internal investigation. Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan have nothing to do with Penn State other than the fact they investigated the University and the Sandusky case at the request of the college. Doesn't make it "internal"

JaMarcus Hustle

CoachTO wrote: »

I'm failing to see what you are trying to conclude by pointing out that Penn State commissioned the report. They have to commission to allow any investigation happen. It shows they were willing to be transparent by allowing an independant report to be created by Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan LLC. It was nowhere near being an internal investigation. Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan have nothing to do with Penn State other than the fact they investigated the University and the Sandusky case at the request of the college. Doesn't make it "internal"

He clearly hasn't even bothered to read the report, or even glance at it. If he did, he might just have seen Page 11.

Internal report :pac:

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

Oh I am sorry for reading your post at face value wrong. You clearly said:.

The term is 'out of context'. I was referring to the fans of these road teams. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Had Penn State not got hit with any sanctions Im almost sure they would draw the same crowds they always have.

I do not question that at all. I would agree 100% that these fans would still support this program after all of the allegations and the Freeh report.

But ok lets play your game. You can take Temple off your list as they are in Pennsylvania and travel well. Navy are in Maryland so not that far too travel and Naval officers and Alumni and students tend to travel to games better than they do at home. Indiana's and Wisconsin fans travel well according to a friend who is a Badger Alumn I just text and for the amount of seats they are given always come close to filling their allocation in most stadiums. Wisconsin usually have around 4-5k students and alum go to their bigger games.

But remember this Penn State have always depended on their home fans anyways as 95k of those fans are home fans usually home fans. They usually have between 3-10k away fans there from the away team depending on the size of the college and the importance of the game.

Indiana doesn't travel well (especially late in the season with nothing on the line), nor does Northwestern. Ohio U ?They are the three that jumped off the page when I read the schedule.

I'll take your word on Temple. I've never thought of them as a 'football powerhouse'.

Wisconsin and Ohio State obviously travel well.

JaMarcus Hustle

In other news...

"In a twist of bitter irony, NCAA punishes Penn State by pretending the last thirteen years didn't happen; "Touche," mutters the ghost of Joe Paterno."

:pac:

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

He clearly hasn't even bothered to read the report, or even glance at it. If he did, he might just have seen Page 11.

Internal report :pac:

CoachTO wrote: »

I'm failing to see what you are trying to conclude by pointing out that Penn State commissioned the report. They have to commission to allow any investigation happen. It shows they were willing to be transparent by allowing an independant report to be created by Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan LLC. It was nowhere near being an internal investigation. Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan have nothing to do with Penn State other than the fact they investigated the University and the Sandusky case at the request of the college. Doesn't make it "internal"

Every major news source in North America has described the Freeh Report as Penn States Internal Investigation

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8157705/penn-state-nittany-lions-joe-paterno-defends-football-program-pre-death-letter

The results of Penn State's internal investigation into the Sandusky scandal are set to be released Thursday in a report that should answer many of the troubling questions swirling around one of the worst scandals in sports history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444330904577537793122568460.html

An internal investigation by former FBI Director Louis Freeh found that Garban was briefed twice about developments in the Sandusky case but didn't share what he knew with the entire board, depriving trustees of a chance to prepare for the worst crisis in Penn State's 157-year history.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/us/penn-state-report-excerpts/index.html

(CNN) -- Here are some key passages from a report on an internal Penn State review into how the school handled allegations of child sex abuse by assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/12/report-by-former-fbi-director-finds-that-penn-state-disregarded-children/

Hall of Fame coach Joe Paterno, right, and other senior officials "concealed critical facts" about Jerry Sandusky's child abuse because they were worried about bad publicity, according to an internal investigation into the scandal. (AP)

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

In other news..:pac:

That's a good one. That was funny.

I like the one where they mention that Paterno's name will remain on the library to remind everyone to 'remain silent'.

Rented Mule

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

He clearly hasn't even bothered to read the report, or even glance at it. If he did, he might just have seen Page 11.

Internal report :pac:

Actually, I have read page 11 in the past. It is honestly, the one saving grace of the entire investigation. I really respect Frazier and everything that he has stated from the beginning, all the way up to the announcing of the Freeh report findings.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

Every major news source in North America has described the Freeh Report as Penn States Internal Investigation

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8157705/penn-state-nittany-lions-joe-paterno-defends-football-program-pre-death-letter

The results of Penn State's internal investigation into the Sandusky scandal are set to be released Thursday in a report that should answer many of the troubling questions swirling around one of the worst scandals in sports history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444330904577537793122568460.html

An internal investigation by former FBI Director Louis Freeh found that Garban was briefed twice about developments in the Sandusky case but didn't share what he knew with the entire board, depriving trustees of a chance to prepare for the worst crisis in Penn State's 157-year history.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/us/penn-state-report-excerpts/index.html

(CNN) -- Here are some key passages from a report on an internal Penn State review into how the school handled allegations of child sex abuse by assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/12/report-by-former-fbi-director-finds-that-penn-state-disregarded-children/

Hall of Fame coach Joe Paterno, right, and other senior officials "concealed critical facts" about Jerry Sandusky's child abuse because they were worried about bad publicity, according to an internal investigation into the scandal. (AP)

Yeah but the American media will sensationalise everything to make it news worthy or try look for the conspiracy in something. Even if it wasn't commissioned by Penn State I bet you anything the American media would have found a link to Penn state somehow.

JaMarcus Hustle

Rented Mule wrote: »

Actually, I have read page 11 in the past. It is honestly, the one saving grace of the entire investigation. I really respect Frazier and everything that he has stated from the beginning, all the way up to the announcing of the Freeh report findings.

Well I would think ESPN, CNN etc. are factually incorrect to call this an internal investigation. The fact that the report sets aside a module on it's independence means it's just lazy journalism. Most universities have internal audit offices for HR - if this were an internal report, that staff would have presented this report. The fact that the report sets aside a module to present it's independence is enough for me.

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

Yeah but the American media will sensationalise everything to make it news worthy or try look for the conspiracy in something. Even if it wasn't commissioned by Penn State I bet you anything the American media would have found a link to Penn state somehow.

Oh, it's the Americans. That's what it is. All of those Americans coming down on an American university for ratings.

So what about this one ?

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2011/11/sandusky_cover_up_why_is_kenneth_frazier_leading_the_investigation_at_penn_state_.html


Penn State University trustee and Merck CEO Kenneth Frazier will chair the internal committee investigating the Sandusky case

Late last week, the university’s trustees announced they would conduct their own “full and complete” investigation into the matter. The probe will be headed, though, by a man with a track record of protecting powerful institutions from the consequences of their inaction: the chairman and CEO of the Merck pharmaceutical company, Kenneth C. Frazier. A Penn State alum and Harvard-trained lawyer, Frazier is best known for his phenomenal success in defending a sordid chapter in Merck’s recent past—its years-long silence about the safety problems of the popular painkiller Vioxx.

Seriously. Give over. The Freeh Report is Penn State's Internal Investigation.

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

Yeah but the American media will sensationalise everything to make it news worthy or try look for the conspiracy in something. Even if it wasn't commissioned by Penn State I bet you anything the American media would have found a link to Penn state somehow.

Who is looking for a conspiracy now ? lol

I understand what you are trying to say though.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

Oh, it's the Americans. That's what it is. All of those Americans coming down on an American university for ratings.

The fook are you talking about. The American Media are notorious for looking for stories behind anything. Anything for a news story. You would want to be stupid or naive or both to believe otherwise.

So what about this one ?

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2011/11/sandusky_cover_up_why_is_kenneth_frazier_leading_the_investigation_at_penn_state_.html


Penn State University trustee and Merck CEO Kenneth Frazier will chair the internal committee investigating the Sandusky case

Late last week, the university’s trustees announced they would conduct their own “full and complete” investigation into the matter. The probe will be headed, though, by a man with a track record of protecting powerful institutions from the consequences of their inaction: the chairman and CEO of the Merck pharmaceutical company, Kenneth C. Frazier. A Penn State alum and Harvard-trained lawyer, Frazier is best known for his phenomenal success in defending a sordid chapter in Merck’s recent past—its years-long silence about the safety problems of the popular painkiller Vioxx.

This proves nothing. In fact it was him and another who brought Freeh and his associates in. You can call it internal all you like but you are sounding more and more like fox news. Freeh and his team are an independent body hired by the Investigation committee which Frazier headed.

Seriously. Give over. The Freeh Report is Penn State's Internal Investigation.

Yeah alright :rolleyes: I actually asked you earlier why you brought this up and you avoided the question. I fail to see the relevance of saying it is an internal investigation. If it was they have done a horrible job protecting the school considering how stupid the school looks and how much the NCAA raped them.

CoachTO

Rented Mule wrote: »

Who is looking for a conspiracy now ? lol

I understand what you are trying to say though.

Looking for conspiracy? Yes that is what I am doing. But that is common knowledge with at least one of the news sources you mentioned i.e Fox. As I say you would want to be stupid or naive to think the American mainstrem media doesn't report ****e for the sake of it and are always linked with nonsense conspiracies.

frostie500

It is my understanding that the Freeh report was commissioned by Penn State but was an independent investigation to get the full facts of the case to come to light. The university paid for the investigation so I can understand how it can be seen as an "internal investigation" but it was not done by University officials and was instead done by a highly regarded third party

Rented Mule

CoachTO wrote: »

Yeah alright :rolleyes: I actually asked you earlier why you brought this up and you avoided the question. I fail to see the relevance of saying it is an internal investigation. If it was they have done a horrible job protecting the school considering how stupid the school looks and how much the NCAA raped them.

Protecting the school ???

The idea of the investigation was transparency. It was the entire University coming clean. It had nothing to do with 'protecting' the university (as Paterno and company tried to do) it was about getting the truth out.

I honestly am at a loss with your statement. Are you saying that an 'internal investigation' should have been used as a 'cover-up' ?

Rented Mule

frostie500 wrote: »

It is my understanding that the Freeh report was commissioned by Penn State but was an independent investigation to get the full facts of the case to come to light. The university paid for the investigation so I can understand how it can be seen as an "internal investigation" but it was not done by University officials and was instead done by a highly regarded third party

The University considers this as their investigation. I've quoted five different sources to prove this point.