€700m social welfare cuts in budget

BeeDI

According to todays Times, social protection funding will face €700m cuts in the budget.
Will it happen, or will Ms Burton, simply pencil in say €400m for savings in fraud, and the balnce to be real cash savings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1109/breaking5.html

fliball123

BeeDI wrote: »

According to todays Times, social protection funding will face €700m cuts in the budget.
Will it happen, or will Ms Burton, simply pencil in say €400m for savings in fraud, and the balnce to be real cash savings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1109/breaking5.html

I think one of the fine gealers on Pat kennys show let the cat out of the bag he kept saying 184 instead of 188 ...so it may just be a cut of 4 euro on the main rate

mikemac

Key line here I think

As the Government has committed itself not to cut the rates of primary social welfare payments, it will have to find alternative savings within the department.

So I guess it'll be other schemes. I'm not up to date with what has already happened but I guess it'll be extras like fuel allowance, phone rental, free TV licence, ESB credits and things like this


Still that might not hit the target so they'll do this also. The Minister will be targeting people on widows and widowers pensions, oh the outcry will be massive. At the same time it can make sense not to have people claiming from many different schemes, the whole system is messy

Savings may also be made by confining each social welfare recipient to only one primary payment that would be immune from cuts. However, that could be highly politically sensitive as those who receive more than one primary payment are mainly widows and carers.

And why is this not done already??? I think I read about this last year

could mean that the long-term unemployed who do not take up training or job offers have their welfare tapered over time.

Nody

BeeDI wrote: »

According to todays Times, social protection funding will face €700m cuts in the budget.
Will it happen, or will Ms Burton, simply pencil in say €400m for savings in fraud, and the balnce to be real cash savings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1109/breaking5.html

It is even mentioned in the article you linked...

Department officials are understood to have focused on three areas to find the bulk of the savings: eliminating social welfare fraud;cutting the rent supplement bill; and “activation” measures for the unemployed to satisfy the conditions of the memorandum of understanding with the EU and the IMF.

Ms Burton launched an anti-fraud initiative in September in which she contended that new fraud control measures could achieve as much as €625 million in savings next year.

So in short; yes, it is going to be included and be part of the over all savings for next year that they need to deliver as well.

gurramok

About time the ridiculously high levels for Rent Supplement in the cities was tackled. Its distorting the market hugely in that workers are forced to pay high rents just to afford a roof over their heads.
Will they take action against career single mothers? Thats one to watch.

Dannyboy83

One comment that I was surprised by recently:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jTLXDWiun3yd6CVSQk5q4EoNXewA?docId=CNG.463620b2366c6b89f6ebc0bc9538e28d.3c1

Jin Liqun, chairman of the board of supervisors of China Investment Corp, slammed the welfare systems of European countries and said the continent must address its own problems to attract outside investment.
"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society," Jin told Al-Jazeera television in an interview broadcast at the weekend.
"The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking."

Sleepy

fliball123 wrote: »

I think one of the fine gealers on Pat kennys show let the cat out of the bag he kept saying 184 instead of 188 ...so it may just be a cut of 4 euro on the main rate

Very rough, back on an envelope figures:

€4 * 52 weeks * 469,710 (live register for August) = €97,699,680 saving

Now sure, assuming a lot of the live register are claiming for dependents could bump that figure well into the 9 figure bracket but it's not going to take it anywhere near €700m.

Anyone else have zero faith in Burton managing to find five or six hundred million in savings from welfare fraud?

mikemac

If they brought over a few managers and a team from Revenue I'd have confidence they could save even more in welfare fraud.

My dealings with Revenue have found them extremely efficient, maybe welfare fraud should be taken off Joan Burtons department.

Fraud is so widespread there are huge savings to be made and that target should be achievable

Mr. Presentable

mikemac wrote: »

If they brought over a few managers and a team from Revenue I'd have confidence they could save even more in welfare fraud.

My dealings with Revenue have found them extremely efficient, maybe welfare fraud should be taken off Joan Burtons department.

Fraud is so widespread there are huge savings to be made and that target should be achievable

There should be a reward system. Offer €1000 for a reported fraudster successfully prosecuted. They will start outing each other overnight.

Atilathehun

Can dogs claim social welfare benefit

I heard recently, that some social welfare recipients can get a €12 per week allowance towards the upkeep of their dog. Dog must be licenced:o

Is it possibly true?

mikemac

That was asked before, I think over in the Café

There is a guide dog allowance, no issue with that

There is no dog allowance but the community welfare officer has a lot of discretion and can approve requests.
So if you're hard up and need money for the dog license and expenses or maybe vet fees, talk the CWO and they might approve
Emergency surgery in a vets can cost hundreds, not everyone has that to spare or has insurance

All you can do is ask realy
Case by case basis

antoobrien

Sleepy wrote: »

Very rough, back on an envelope figures:

€4 * 52 weeks * 469,710 (live register for August) = €97,699,680 saving

Now sure, assuming a lot of the live register are claiming for dependents could bump that figure well into the 9 figure bracket but it's not going to take it anywhere near €700m.

Anyone else have zero faith in Burton managing to find five or six hundred million in savings from welfare fraud?

Rent supplement should be the easiest one get some savings out of (in Dublin at any rate). They're already paying for ghost estates through NAMA, so use some of them to get people off RS. I'm thinking specifically about carers or people that were made unemployed since 2008 - there were still 135k on the dole at the height of the boom IMO these should get as little as possible.

If/when they do get jobs graduate the reductions so that people don't end up in a worse position that they were.

ianuss

mikemac wrote: »

If they brought over a few managers and a team from Revenue I'd have confidence they could save even more in welfare fraud.

My dealings with Revenue have found them extremely efficient, maybe welfare fraud should be taken off Joan Burtons department.

Fraud is so widespread there are huge savings to be made and that target should be achievable

A major stumbling block to fraud detection is the Data Protection Act. State agencies aren't allowed to share information. Any information/evidence you provide in an application for any state service is for the sole purpose of that application only. Having worked in one of the public sector services I can tell you that for the staff who uncover fraud, it's depressing knowing that nothing will come of it.

Whilst it's not common, I've seen one case whereby one social welfare recipient had built a second house on their corner site, rented that second house out at small profit after the mortgage, and still claimed full benefits. It was galling that there was nothing that we could do.

antoobrien

ianuss wrote: »

A major stumbling block to fraud detection is the Data Protection Act. State agencies aren't allowed to share information. Any information/evidence you provide in an application for any state service is for the sole purpose of that application only. Having worked in one of the public sector services I can tell you that for the staff who uncover fraud, it's depressing knowing that nothing will come of it.

This article from September implies that there were changes to the DPA to allow sharing information between departments in order to save the €625m in question

murphaph

Let's assume for a minute that they can save 700m in the welfare bill by eliminating (all??) fraud and reducing the side perks and cutting the base rate by a few quid. Let's say they eliminate ALL capital spending (terrible idea but anyway). It still leaves a huge deficit. Will they hit up welfare for another 700m next year (remembering that the one time only fraud gain is now not an option-all savings will have to come directly from actual cuts) and then what?

The dogs in the street know that significant cuts to welfare and PS pay and pensions are the only real way to close the deficit. Italy is about to tank and take the rest of us with her-there will be NO GROWTH in Ireland to close the deficit and probably no money from the Troika to borrow anyway if Italy needs it.

I predict that Ireland will be forced to a sudden balancing of the budget and it will be chaotic, a slash and burn job. The best option would be to use the few months that we have to impose more targetted cuts in pay and pensions but I simply have no faith in the politicians to do so-many are part of a culture whereby they have never actually held a job that didn't see their pay coming from the Exchequer.

Anyway, even if the doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass-the low hanging fruit of capital expenditure and fraud will not be there for budget 2013. Something will have to give.

ianuss

antoobrien wrote: »

This article from September implies that there were changes to the DPA to allow sharing information between departments in order to save the €625m in question

There's no real mention at all of the DPA. But any changes, if they do transpire would be welcome IMO.

As for SW cuts in general, they should slash the dole for single, childless people. It's just way too high at €188.

touts

My bet is Moan Burton will fudge the issue and announce yet another major crack down on Social Welfare Fraud to make up her part of the required reduction. She seems to be on the radio every 2-3 weeks announcing a new crackdown on fraud so this seems to be the only area of her brief she is comfortable with. With Higgins and now Nulty both targetting the Left vote in Dublin West she knows she will be the headline cabinet casualty in the next election if she actually took on social welfare. There will be no action on reducing the Social Welfare budget until after the next cabinet reshuffle and someone with the backbone to actually do what is needed is put in her place.

WalterMitty

touts wrote: »

My bet is Moan Burton will fudge the issue and announce yet another major crack down on Social Welfare Fraud to make up her part of the required reduction. She seems to be on the radio every 2-3 weeks announcing a new crackdown on fraud so this seems to be the only area of her brief she is comfortable with. With Higgins and now Nulty both targetting the Left vote in Dublin West she knows she will be the headline cabinet casualty in the next election if she actually took on social welfare. There will be no action on reducing the Social Welfare budget until after the next cabinet reshuffle and someone with the backbone to actually do what is needed is put in her place.

Youre right. Most or all the labour TDs dont have the stomach for the task of balancing budget. Sinn Fein will be fighting them in every constituency over the cuts to welfare/services etc and may overtake them as people see Labour arent gonna keep their welfare and services intact.

Atilathehun

WalterMitty wrote: »

Youre right. Most or all the labour TDs dont have the stomach for the task of balancing budget. Sinn Fein will be fighting them in every constituency over the cuts to welfare/services etc and may overtake them as people see Labour arent gonna keep their welfare and services intact.

Sooner we get FF back the better for the country:D

Sleepy

The sooner there's a new party that's not made up of the usual incompetents that understands the notion of a balanced current budget, the better for the country you mean.

the groutch

hopefully Joan will have the cop on to stand up to pensioners and make them pay their share, possibly by means testing of non-contrubtory pensions.
for too long OAPs have been protected, and getting increases well in excess of inflation, and need to share the burden.
and let them take to the streets if they want, the next election isnt for another 4 years.

Nody

Sleepy wrote: »

The sooner there's a new party that's not made up of the usual incompetents that understands the notion of a balanced current budget, the better for the country you mean.

Sadly I expect to see Unicorns and flying pigs come about in abudance before that happens...

Spudmonkey

Sleepy wrote: »

The sooner there's a new party that's not made up of the usual incompetents that understands the notion of a balanced current budget, the better for the country you mean.

It doesn't matter who is there. They will pander to the masses when they want to be elected and will bow to their masters when in power.

syklops

Anyone else have zero faith in Burton managing to find five or six hundred million in savings from welfare fraud?

In fairness she has already saved in the region of 350 million, so thats half the target already. As previously mentioned, a 4 euro decrease in the dole will save nearly 100 Million, A decent decrease in RS could save as much again, and some tucking and snipping here and there, I think 700M is easily achievable.

murphaph

syklops wrote: »

In fairness she has already saved in the region of 350 million, so thats half the target already. As previously mentioned, a 4 euro decrease in the dole will save nearly 100 Million, A decent decrease in RS could save as much again, and some tucking and snipping here and there, I think 700M is easily achievable.

So that and the stealth taxes and capital spending cuts for this year gets us to about a 9bn deficit. What can be cut next year if they're so afraid of cutting core pay/payments?

The truth is their growth forecasts are going to be wildly optimistic and we'll end up like Greece doing a slash and burn in a most chaotic manner, rather than addressing the elephant(s) in the room now, while we have a bit of time.

sambora

In fairness she has already saved in the region of 350 million, so thats half the target already. As previously mentioned, a 4 euro decrease in the dole will save nearly 100 Million, A decent decrease in RS could save as much again, and some tucking and snipping here and there, I think 700M is easily achievable.

You're obviously not reliant on Social Welfare?

irishh_bob

the groutch wrote: »

hopefully Joan will have the cop on to stand up to pensioners and make them pay their share, possibly by means testing of non-contrubtory pensions.
for too long OAPs have been protected, and getting increases well in excess of inflation, and need to share the burden.
and let them take to the streets if they want, the next election isnt for another 4 years.

why would moan commit political suicide like that , the vast vast majority of people support spoiling pensioners even it means they themselves are out of pocket , recent history has shown politicians that its a no go area , its absurd but thats the will of the people

cee_jay

the groutch wrote: »

hopefully Joan will have the cop on to stand up to pensioners and make them pay their share, possibly by means testing of non-contrubtory pensions.
for too long OAPs have been protected, and getting increases well in excess of inflation, and need to share the burden.
and let them take to the streets if they want, the next election isnt for another 4 years.

Non contributory pensions are means tested already

chasm

ianuss wrote: »

As for SW cuts in general, they should slash the dole for single, childless people. It's just way too high at €188.

Why? A couple, with kids, on the dole costs more to support. If a single childless person should have their personal rate reduced then so should a person who receives the same amount as part of a couple imo.

murphaph

chasm wrote: »

Why? A couple, with kids, on the dole costs more to support. If a single childless person should have their personal rate reduced then so should a person who receives the same amount as part of a couple imo.

Indeed there are economis of (small) scale for couples and familes-you can buy more in bulk and save on your food bills.

ianuss

chasm wrote: »

Why? A couple, with kids, on the dole costs more to support. If a single childless person should have their personal rate reduced then so should a person who receives the same amount as part of a couple imo.

Because couples don't get €188 x 2, they receive €188 + 1 dependent rate. If they got €188 x 2, I would agree with you.

donalg1

Fact is politicians aren't in it to make the country a better place or anything like that the only thing that they are interested in is getting elected and staying elected so they are never going to make the tough decisions that are required as chances are this would lead to them losing their seat.

Zubeneschamali

donalg1 wrote: »

Fact is politicians aren't in it to make the country a better place or anything like that the only thing that they are interested in is getting elected and staying elected so they are never going to make the tough decisions that are required as chances are this would lead to them losing their seat.

If the Government aren't good boys and girls and don't make the needed cuts, the EU won't give us any more pocket money, and we'll be utterly broke within seconds - no money in the ATMs, complete economic meltdown.

The next election is the least of the Government's worries.

Godge

How to cut €700m off the social welfare bill?

First, a 25% cut in child benefit. That brings in approximately €500m

Other measures would include:

- one social welfare payment only (as in UK and most of Europe)
- severe cuts in rent allowance to reflect the changed market (may mean people having to move)
- changes in means testing to cut the amount of money going to stay-at-home children in their twenties
- reduction in the maximum age of a child that a single parent allowance will be paid for (rare in Europe for the payment to continue once the child is over ten).
- reduction in the rate for second and subsequent children in a single parent situation
- increased targeting of those who refuse training/jobs with reduced payment
- cuts in the amount of money available to CWOs and restrictions on its use


Savings of €200m should be possible from those measures. As a result, genuine social welfare recipients who are making genuine efforts to secure employment would be largely unaffected.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

About time the ridiculously high levels for Rent Supplement in the cities was tackled. Its distorting the market hugely in that workers...

I presume by "workers" you mean "people", right?

gurramok wrote: »

...are forced to pay high rents just to afford a roof over their heads.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing about rent supplement, but I really don't think it can be argued that rents in Ireland are all that high any more. Two-bed properties are to be found in Dublin, relatively centrally, for less than EUR 1,000 per month - that's really not expensive by European standards, especially when you factor in that salaries in Ireland are still relatively high.

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

The sooner there's a new party that's not made up of the usual incompetents that understands the notion of a balanced current budget, the better for the country you mean.

Everyone in government understands the importance of balancing the budget. But they also understand the impact that balancing the budget would have on their own political careers.

chasm wrote: »

If a single childless person should have their personal rate reduced then so should a person who receives the same amount as part of a couple imo.

I think the point is that the EUR 188 per week is the baseline - lower that and everything else comes down with it.

syklops wrote: »

...I think 700M is easily achievable.

I think so too. Given the absolutely colossal size of the welfare bill, a small reduction in most (all?) payments would result in pretty significant savings.

Icepick

djpbarry wrote: »

I presume by "workers" you mean "people", right?
I'm not necessarily disagreeing about rent supplement, but I really don't think it can be argued that rents in Ireland are all that high any more. Two-bed properties are to be found in Dublin, relatively centrally, for less than EUR 1,000 per month - that's really not expensive by European standards, especially when you factor in that salaries in Ireland are still relatively high.

Two working people have to spend €1,000 a month, and a "single mother" gets it for free. That's totally messed up.
And the prices are too high because of RA.

wolfpawnat

Icepick wrote: »

Two working people have to spend €1,000 a month, and a "single mother" gets it for free. That's totally messed up.
And the prices are too high because of RA.

I get RA to help with my rent, I do not get the apartment for free. I still have to fork out 1/4 of my weeks JSA for it. The same as I did when I was working!

Why do people feel the need to talk about all those on SW as though they are college professors in the subject?

Perhaps if Dublin rents were forced to be lowered the RA bill would be lowered! Rents have not went down too much in Dublin compared to the rest of the country, maybe if they were forced down we would all be better off!

mattjack

Just a brief note....I do a little volunteer work for a charity and they have anecdotal evidence of huge social welfare crackdowns on fraudulent claims at the moment...crackdowns on disability claims,child support,people being claimed for in prison etc.men be stopped if driving vans,checks on extensions being built in houses etc.

Godge

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not necessarily disagreeing about rent supplement, but I really don't think it can be argued that rents in Ireland are all that high any more. Two-bed properties are to be found in Dublin, relatively centrally, for less than EUR 1,000 per month - that's really not expensive by European standards, especially when you factor in that salaries in Ireland are still relatively high.

Well, Tyneside has a population close to a million, so similar to Dublin.

http://www.findaproperty.com/areadetails.aspx?edid=00&salerent=1&areaid=7455


2-bed house at £584 is a lot less than €1,000 per month, so I think Dublin has a long way to go still in cutting rents.

wolfpawnat

mattjack wrote: »

Just a brief note....I do a little volunteer work for a charity and they have anecdotal evidence of huge social welfare crackdowns on fraudulent claims at the moment...crackdowns on disability claims,child support,people being claimed for in prison etc.men be stopped if driving vans,checks on extensions being built in houses etc.

I have had checks made to see if I was on OPFP since my son's father is in the apartment. Would have thought they would have had those sort of details by merely typing my PPS No. into the computer. I don't mind them checking as I have nothing to hide, just annoying since they asked me twice in the last month! Can't blame them though, I have heard of a few cases who have been caught pretending they are single parents! That seems to be where most of the fraud is being caught out (thank God!)

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I presume by "workers" you mean "people", right?

People who work for a living in order to afford a roof over the heads, that's me.

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not necessarily disagreeing about rent supplement, but I really don't think it can be argued that rents in Ireland are all that high any more. Two-bed properties are to be found in Dublin, relatively centrally, for less than EUR 1,000 per month - that's really not expensive by European standards, especially when you factor in that salaries in Ireland are still relatively high.

They've been at that price give or take ups and downs for the last 7 years or so. Why? Because Rent Supplement controls 50% of the private rental sector. Rents are prevented from hitting a floor because of this huge taxpayer subsidy. Drop the RS(not scrap it for vulnerable people) and workers like me will benefit from a lower rent which will be market oriented without any distortion.

And as pointed out, Dublin ain't London or Paris. Its size and economy is comparable to Newcastle or Manchester.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

People who work for a living in order to afford a roof over the heads, that's me.

That’s you together with pretty much the entire country.

gurramok wrote: »

They've been at that price give or take ups and downs for the last 7 years or so.

No, they haven’t. Rents nationwide are about 25% lower than they were at their peak:
http://www.daft.ie/report/Daft-Rental-Report-Q2-2011.pdf

gurramok wrote: »

And as pointed out, Dublin ain't London or Paris. Its size and economy is comparable to Newcastle or Manchester.

Except that salaries in Dublin are far higher. I’d also wager that Dublin is a more desirable place to live.

Sykk

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

There should be a reward system. Offer €1000 for a reported fraudster successfully prosecuted. They will start outing each other overnight.

I think that money could be spent a little better than chasing people who are claiming the dole illegally to feed their kids. And yes, a lot are.

It's too hard to distinguish between who needs it and who doesn't in the broken system.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s you together with pretty much the entire country.

Then why did you ask about workers?

djpbarry wrote: »

No, they haven’t. Rents nationwide are about 25% lower than they were at their peak:
http://www.daft.ie/report/Daft-Rental-Report-Q2-2011.pdf

Since when does 2011-2007 = 7 years?

djpbarry wrote: »

Except that salaries in Dublin are far higher. I’d also wager that Dublin is a more desirable place to live.

Far higher than Manchester, how?

professore

djpbarry wrote: »

Except that salaries in Dublin are far higher.

That's mainly because of the high rents and until recently lower taxes, people need higher salaries to pay the inflated rents and property prices.

We would have been far better off as a nation if FF had kept the tax system of the year 2000 or thereabouts, scrapped all tax incentives for property, scrapped mortgage interest relief, tapered down rent supplement.

We would have had more sustainable growth - up to 2000 it was genuine export led and sustainable - and with lower rents and housing costs, higher taxes, a balanced budget and proper services. What a wasted opportunity.

carm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I get RA to help with my rent, I do not get the apartment for free. I still have to fork out 1/4 of my weeks JSA for it. The same as I did when I was working!

Why do people feel the need to talk about all those on SW as though they are college professors in the subject?

Perhaps if Dublin rents were forced to be lowered the RA bill would be lowered! Rents have not went down too much in Dublin compared to the rest of the country, maybe if they were forced down we would all be better off!

Here's the problem. You fork out 1/4 of your weeks JSA. How lucky you are. Apply that to other people NOT on rent allowance who get no assistance. For the first 8 months of this year, I got nothing to help me with my mortgage (not massive, not in negative equity, not bought during the boom years but made redundant after 2 decades working and paying my tax) and I didn't have enough to cover the mortgage based on the pathetic 24 euros I was getting by living on the borrowings of friends (and that's borrowings to be paid back over time).

Even if I applied for mortgage interest supplement (which I'm not entitled to as I don't fit into their tiny criteria), it would still be a tiny amount a week and would last 1 year. If you're in receipt of up to just over ONE THOUSAND EUROS a month (I'm not addressing you on this but personally I find these to be disgraceful overpayments the taxpayer been for years supporting) rent supplement, you can receive it as long as necessary. So you have people on the breadline in houses and many (obviously not all) doing ok for themselves being in receipt of rent supplements. This needs to come to an end.

djpbarry

Sykk wrote: »

I think that money could be spent a little better than chasing people who are claiming the dole illegally to feed their kids. And yes, a lot are.

How many?

gurramok wrote: »

Then why did you ask about workers?

I was just confirming that when you say “workers”, you actually mean “people”. Hence the term “workers” is redundant.

gurramok wrote: »

Since when does 2011-2007 = 7 years?

It doesn’t – I was just referring to 2007 as the point at which rents peaked. But anyway, rents in Ireland are currently lower than at any point since 2002. You may have to go back even further to find rents as low as they are at present – the Daft report I linked to above only goes back 9 years.

gurramok wrote: »

Far higher than Manchester, how?

Because they’re higher? Are people genuinely unaware of how much lower salaries tend to be in the UK relative to Ireland? Granted, it’s going to vary depending on the field, but if you take something fairly general like office administration, you are likely to earn far less in Northern Britain compared to Dublin – you’ll frequently see positions advertised, seeking experienced individuals, paying well under £20k.

djpbarry

professore wrote: »

That's mainly because of the high rents and until recently lower taxes, people need higher salaries to pay the inflated rents and property prices.

Rents would not have climbed so high if people were not prepared to pay them – it’s not like there was a major shortage of supply.

professore wrote: »

We would have been far better off as a nation if FF had kept the tax system of the year 2000 or thereabouts, scrapped all tax incentives for property, scrapped mortgage interest relief, tapered down rent supplement.

Yeah, sure. Can’t argue with that.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I was just confirming that when you say “workers”, you actually mean “people”. Hence the term “workers” is redundant.

In order to afford rents, you need money. There are 2 ways of obtaining that money, that is through employment as a worker or through welfare.

You're pathetic attempt at lessening the affect of RS on the market is dreadful.

djpbarry wrote: »

It doesn’t – I was just referring to 2007 as the point at which rents peaked. But anyway, rents in Ireland are currently lower than at any point since 2002. You may have to go back even further to find rents as low as they are at present – the Daft report I linked to above only goes back 9 years.

At the peak of a bubble that was. That bubble existed in both property prices and rentals. As in both cases, prices are still high. Asking from 900+ for a 2bed in Dublin whether its in D15 or D4 or D24 is still very high. Govt control of the rental sector is holding prices from falling any further as there has been a consistent supply of rental properties over the years which has not had a serious affect on prices.

djpbarry wrote: »

Because they’re higher? Are people genuinely unaware of how much lower salaries tend to be in the UK relative to Ireland? Granted, it’s going to vary depending on the field, but if you take something fairly general like office administration, you are likely to earn far less in Northern Britain compared to Dublin – you’ll frequently see positions advertised, seeking experienced individuals, paying well under £20k.

"Because they’re higher?". That is a very weak back up to your assessment. Do they have 15% unemployment and countless others on OPFP & RS?

Do they have NAMA withholding thousands of apts from the rental market in Dublin? No.

Are their govt broke? No. Paying nearly €600m on RS to private landlords is a disgrace.

Enjoy the read http://www.tameside.gov.uk/benefits/localallowance
http://www.tenantstips.com/Home/Housing-Benefit/Local-Housing-Allowance/Current-LHA-Rates-and-Local-Housing-Allowance-Rates/Current-LHA-Rates-for-each-council-in-England#.Tr08pJtEd3E


The most expensive area in Manchester for a 2bed in £524. In Dublin, its 930euro for a couple or a single mother with a child.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

Now, try and back up your assertion that 930quid is justified in Dublin on RS.

saa

I know about 6 OAPs who have recieved grants, household packages, medical cards* some, and bus passes

and these folk are all above being comfortable, a few of them have bought luxury cars, more than one trip a year when there are others who are on the state pension who can't afford to put the heat on, and yes means testing, improving the system is a rather expensive task but it is just so unjust.