Cows Scouring on silage

feckin day gone again!!

Has anyone problems with cows scouring... Milkers in two weeks now. Feeding second cut bales before we open the pit. Cows are gone very loose. We havent a feeder and when i throw out straw for them they just pick out the silage through the straw. (you can bring a horse to water comes to mind!) They've never been as bad. Cubicles all dirty etc. Scrapping them 3 times a day now..

whelan1

what else are they getting apart from the silage? are they also throwing up the cud? what is the silage like ? i would feed them bales to other stock and open the pit

vanderbadger

give them straw for a day or two would probably dry them up

fatoftheland

its acidosis caused by a lac of fiber. acid buff is a lot easier to feed than straw it just needs to be a strong one

PMU

open the pit,the cows are scouring from acidic silage. hay would help. how much meal are they on.?the cubicles arent comfortable,thats why the cows wont lie

feckin day gone again!!

They're on dairy 18 (12-16 lbs a day) and silage, thats it. Yeah the 2nd cut was leafy and prob not enough fibre in it. Its too acidic i'd say. Whats an acid buff? If i open the pit i'd prob feed every 2nd/3rd day with the bales. ie pit pit bales etc. Do most dairy farmers have diet feeders? I dont know if its the comfort thats putting them off the cubicles. Most of the cows use them. I've a Heifir that was trianed when she was young to use them that started lying along the feeding barrier last week... I think some cattle dont like cubicles no matter what.

jeff greene

Could also be high nitrates or mycotoxins. Best to open the pit, feed them to weanlings or something

feckin day gone again!!

Nitrogen was out 10 weeks before second cut. If i had a feeder i'd mix a bit of straw with d silage.

feckin day gone again!!

Whats an acid buff?

greysides

Acid buff, presumably means an acid buffer, something to neutralise the acid. Bread soda?

feckin day gone again!!

Ok, i thought there was something commonly available for acidic silage. Some man told me today he feeds rolled barley to help dry them up... I'll have every crow in d land perched on d feeding barrier!!

jeff greene

feckin day gone again!! wrote: »

Ok, i thought there was something commonly available for acidic silage. Some man told me today he feeds rolled barley to help dry them up... I'll have every crow in d land perched on d feeding barrier!!

There is, bread soda or bicarbonate of soda, ask your local coop, comes in 25kg bags, usually feed 80-100 grams as maintenance. You may need more, up to 250grams. Some companies have products that do the same thing, ask some reps but bicarb works.

Barley is the last thing really I'd feed, a fiber source like hulls or citrus.

snowman707

same story here, cows in and getting some second cut bale silage, very scoury,

all dry so getting no meals

feckin day gone again!!

Is rolled barley not fibrous?

greysides

Rolled barley with it's highly accessible carbohydrate is more likely to cause acidosis than cure it...........................

Barley Poisoning is another name for Acidosis.

If not using an actual buffer, straw or fibrous material will help as the 'scratch factor' in the rumen stimulates the secretion of saliva which contains bicarb and acts as a natural buffer to the acid in the rumen.

jeff greene

Other causes might be fluke or worms, BVD, Salmonella etc.

whelan1

jeff greene wrote: »

Other causes might be fluke or worms, BVD, Salmonella etc.

rumen fluke!

BeeDI

greysides wrote: »

Rolled barley with it's highly accessible carbohydrate is more likely to cause acidosis than cure it...........................

Barley Poisoning is another name for Acidosis.

If not using aa actual buffer, straw or fibrous material will help as the 'scratch factor' in the rumen stimulates the secretion of saliva which contains bicarb and acts as a natural buffer to the acid in the rumen.

The old folk used to say barley to loosen them, fine meal to tighten them!

flatout11

are you getting paid for dung aswell???
cant understand dairy farmers obsession with the consistency of **** (sorry lads)
at 6 kg of meal and ad lib silage acidocis should not be an issue (unless ur sellin diet feeders) ps every kg of straw in the diet reduces total dietary intake by 1 kg - no need for it in that kind of diet
lets face it when they are let out to grass in spring the dung flys out of them too

feckin day gone again!!

Ji....are u a vet or am i that far behind?!!!! (greysides)!! Ah, its just i dont like to see them so runny. I know i wouldnt like it! Yrs ago when it was easy to save hay ud need a shovel to lift a poop!!!

stanflt

flatout11 wrote: »

are you getting paid for dung aswell???
cant understand dairy farmers obsession with the consistency of **** (sorry lads)
at 6 kg of meal and ad lib silage acidocis should not be an issue (unless ur sellin diet feeders) ps every kg of straw in the diet reduces total dietary intake by 1 kg - no need for it in that kind of diet
lets face it when they are let out to grass in spring the dung flys out of them too

are you sure about that statement-
you sound like you know your stuff when it comes to science and rumen digestion in particular.

have you ever heard of pdin, pdie, ndf, ufl values for each ingredient-
remember everybodies forage is different


as for straw- im currently feeding silage that is 79dmd and 19.6%cp but is only 20dm- if i dont put straw in the diet the nutrients from the silage wont be absorbed in the rumen and cows will scour- im also feeding brewers and maize but the diet still needs straw. it balances rumen ph etc

jeff greene

flatout11 wrote: »

cant understand dairy farmers obsession with the consistency of **** (sorry lads)

*Sigh*

It gives a massive clue as to how she is being fed. Same as yourself.

greysides

jeff greene wrote: »

Other causes might be fluke or worms, BVD, Salmonella etc.

Playing the percentages................

...if a high proportion are scoury, I don't think it would be BVD unless the virus had just come in to a never-exposed herd ; otherwise, the adult animals would most likely he previously exposed and immune.
...salmonellosis, it may go through the cows but again unlikely to affect a large number at the one time due to herd immunity, unless recently introduced. Some cows are likely to be sick with it.

...parasites, could well be part of a scour problem but unlikely to be a major part in adults (some degree of immunity to stomach worms, none to fluke) unless there's weight loss and decreased milk production too. Some animals would likely be more affected than others. With current restrictions on flukicides, fluke is going to be a bigger problem in dairy herds than previous years.

whelan1 wrote: »

rumen fluke!

I'll stick my neck out and suggest less problems with Ruminal Fluke this year than the recent ones. Drier summer, less river flooding depositing the carrier water snails onto grazing ground.

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

rumen fluke!

Yah you might as well throw it in.

God knows what caused sickness in cattle before this came along.

It's fierce handy isn't it, it can take the blame for everything.

And doen't talk back, unlike

LostCovey

LostCovey

greysides wrote: »

I'll stick my neck out and suggest less problems with Ruminal Fluke this year than the recent ones. Drier summer, less river flooding depositing the carrier water snails onto grazing ground.

I'd say yer neck is safe enough there Greysides!

jeff greene

greysides wrote: »

Playing the percentages................

...if a high proportion are scoury, I don't think it would be BVD unless the virus had just come in to a never-exposed herd ; otherwise, the adult animals would most likely he previously exposed and immune.
...salmonellosis, it may go through the cows but again unlikely to affect a large number at the one time due to herd immunity, unless recently introduced. Some cows are likely to be sick with it.

...parasites, could well be part of a scour problem but unlikely to be a major part in adults (some degree of immunity to stomach worms, none to fluke) unless there's weight loss and decreased milk production too. Some animals would likely be more affected than others. With current restrictions on flukicides, fluke is going to be a bigger problem in dairy herds than previous years.

I agree, I was just putting it out there.

fatoftheland

acid buff is about eight times stronger than bread soda. the one i use is called vistacell and i get it from my feed supplier kiernan milling

jeff greene

fatoftheland wrote: »

acid buff is about eight times stronger than bread soda. the one i use is called vistacell and i get it from my feed supplier kiernan milling

Well, its 2.5 times as effective. Acid buff Bread soda is still fine though, just need more of it.

Vistacell is the yeast with acid buff, do you find it good?

5live

greysides wrote: »

Playing the percentages................

...if a high proportion are scoury, I don't think it would be BVD unless the virus had just come in to a never-exposed herd ; otherwise, the adult animals would most likely he previously exposed and immune.
...salmonellosis, it may go through the cows but again unlikely to affect a large number at the one time due to herd immunity, unless recently introduced. Some cows are likely to be sick with it.

...parasites, could well be part of a scour problem but unlikely to be a major part in adults (some degree of immunity to stomach worms, none to fluke) unless there's weight loss and decreased milk production too. Some animals would likely be more affected than others. With current restrictions on flukicides, fluke is going to be a bigger problem in dairy herds than previous years.





I'll stick my neck out and suggest less problems with Ruminal Fluke this year than the recent ones. Drier summer, less river flooding depositing the carrier water snails onto grazing ground.

I was at a DEP meeting the other day and the vet giving the presentation said they have established the milk withdrawl for triclabendazoles (60 days) but the european authorities will not reply to requests to approve for use in dairy cows and it is still illegal to use. The edicines board wont even give vets permission to use it off label (as a PMO) in cases where the 2 dose programme doesnt work even with strict supervision and milk testing for residues. Something will have to give soon:mad:

fatoftheland

using the vistacell for bull on ad lib and silage. dung is good no sore feet and none sick

flatout11

stanflt wrote: »

are you sure about that statement-
you sound like you know your stuff when it comes to science and rumen digestion in particular.

have you ever heard of pdin, pdie, ndf, ufl values for each ingredient-
remember everybodies forage is different


as for straw- im currently feeding silage that is 79dmd and 19.6%cp but is only 20dm- if i dont put straw in the diet the nutrients from the silage wont be absorbed in the rumen and cows will scour- im also feeding brewers and maize but the diet still needs straw. it balances rumen ph etc

sorry only looking back at the tread now, its an impressive diet, im guessing your feeding a kg or more of straw? reality is your probably reducing me intake by 6 to 10 mj and consequently milk output by 0.5 to 1 kg, there is a fair body of data out there that has found this. you will find it hard to get a independent study showing the benifits of inclusion of 1 - 2 kg of straw in a lactating diet on output from a milking herd, or for that matter rumen ph given as very few places on this side of the atlantic adopt rumenocentesis (technique to measure rumen ph)
i wouldnt use the inra system personally alot of the intake work in its devolopment was based on sheep who as you can imagine have completely different rumen outflow rates/metabolism etc. this was used as the basis for some of the assumed fill values of feeds etc., distilliers and maize are two ingreedients that i think are underestimated using this system, TBH outside of teagasc who uses this system? personally for dairy cows id adopt the FIM system.
but let me ask the question
so do you feed straw in spring when cows out at grass in spring on a diet of grass and concentrate???

Tipp Man

Start of March to end of November - Grass
December to March - Silage

Nuts fed when needed and to prevent grass Tetany

so glad i don't own a diet feeder

jeff greene

flatout11 wrote: »

so do you feed straw in spring when cows out at grass in spring on a diet of grass and concentrate???

Only time and only .5 kg at that.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Start of March to end of November - Grass
December to March - Silage

Nuts fed when needed and to prevent grass Tetany

so glad i don't own a diet feeder

Boring!!

flatout11

jeff greene wrote: »

Only time and only .5 kg at that.



Boring!!

ah you gotta love boards be times :D:D